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God/Jesus sinned. Genocide is a sin of high order.

ayani

member
Thank you... I try. :D

haha. :D

Why didn't he just create us all happy?

he did. i'm going by what the Bible says here.

Biblically, we were created, male and female, very happy. there was a lovely garden to run around in, and in the evening, God Himself would come and walk and talk with our first parents. no death, no sickness, no evil, no strife (external or internal), no scary carniverous animals, no toil.

when man was tempted to trust, not God, but Satan, not His commandments but their own curious desire to know all and be just like Him, then the veil of seperation came down. man had free will even then. one might ask "so why didn't God prevent all that?" God created us with free will- He wants us to chose Him, not out of fear or supposition, but out of love, and a willing, heart-felt desire to serve the God who made us.

we do still have a choice- the world will not stop being sinful, difficult, or frustrating. but God has given us a way to know Him an walk with Him again, through His Holy Spirit. that Way is His Son, the Messiah, whom God sent to teach us and reconcile us to Himself. that doesn't mean a Christian doesn't have off days, or troubles, or struggles with sin. of course they do. but they have a personal walk with God, a path of discipleship, and a new life in Him who lives, to guide them and light the way.
 

ayani

member
If God is so infinitely far above us all -- so much so that humans are more nearly comparable to ants than to God -- then it's infinitely more insane for God to judge humans for violating divine morality.

no, no at all. God made us- He knows the inner workings of our hearts, He knows our intentions, and He knows how much *we* are aware of morally and ethically.

it's not at all insane for us to judge us for violating His standards- He's given them to us, several times, in several ways. most recently, through the Person of His Son. He's also given us an internal sense of right and wrong- a kind of understanding of the golden rule. it's God-given, but not neccesarily God-lead. so if we go by our own judgement, there's bound to be lapses of judgement, mistakes, well-meaning errors, etc.

He's given us His Word, and His Son. He knows us, and desires for us to seek im diligently. we are made in His image, and His breath first beathed life into us. so there's a much more intimate (though often unrecognized) relationship between us and God, than between us and ants.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
it's not at all insane for us to judge us for violating His standards- He's given them to us, several times, in several ways. most recently, through the Person of His Son. He's also given us an internal sense of right and wrong- a kind of understanding of the golden rule. it's God-given, but not neccesarily God-lead. so if we go by our own judgement, there's bound to be lapses of judgement, mistakes, well-meaning errors, etc.
But He gave all this knowing that it would be insufficient in many cases, didn't He?

If you're hanging from a cliff, is it charitable for someone to throw you a rope that won't take your weight?
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
in what ways is what He's given us insufficient?
If you know that a course of action is going to be ineffective at acheiving its goal, then it's insufficient.

Creating a means of salvation that ought to save everyone but that you know won't is like throwing someone a rope that would carry the weight that he should have been and not the weight he is now.
 

ayani

member
a Christian would point to Jesus as being perfectly sufficient for salvation. He's always there- He's alive, holy, perfect, ad in Himself entirely sufficient to reconcile us to the God who made us, being fully God and fully man.

now, will everone get it? or come to Him? they my not, but the choice, the person, the rope of salvation remains there. one can not come to Christian faith by arguing or debating that faith- it's a mater of faith and God's grace. it's subtle, personal, and an inner change dealing more with the heart than the head, though thoughtful consideration may certainly lead one to that point.
 

Greatest I am

Well-Known Member
a Christian would point to Jesus as being perfectly sufficient for salvation. He's always there- He's alive, holy, perfect, ad in Himself entirely sufficient to reconcile us to the God who made us, being fully God and fully man.

now, will everone get it? or come to Him? they my not, but the choice, the person, the rope of salvation remains there. one can not come to Christian faith by arguing or debating that faith- it's a mater of faith and God's grace. it's subtle, personal, and an inner change dealing more with the heart than the head, though thoughtful consideration may certainly lead one to that point.

If Jesus had any heart at all then where was it as he watches and helped God drown all those millions?

Did he hand the bucket to God to get him started?

He handed those people a rope alright except he placed it around their necks and pulled tight. Murder by any other name is still murder.

Regards
DL
 
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9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
a Christian would point to Jesus as being perfectly sufficient for salvation. He's always there- He's alive, holy, perfect, ad in Himself entirely sufficient to reconcile us to the God who made us, being fully God and fully man.
There's a difference between "is perfectly sufficient" and "ought to be perfectly sufficient". IMO, any action that is taken knowing that it will be in vain is insufficient.

If almighty God sets his mind to accomplishing some task... providing saving grace to all humanity, for instance, it gets done. If so much as one person is not saved, then this indicates that our initial premises were flawed, and either:

- God is not almighty.
- God didn't actually want to save all humanity.

now, will everone get it? or come to Him? they my not, but the choice, the person, the rope of salvation remains there. one can not come to Christian faith by arguing or debating that faith- it's a mater of faith and God's grace. it's subtle, personal, and an inner change dealing more with the heart than the head, though thoughtful consideration may certainly lead one to that point.
Right - it's not enough to dangle a rope within sight of you. If God wants to save you, He'll metaphorically wrap the rope under your arms and pull you up. Any person who God doesn't do this for, He didn't really want to save.
 
For an all powerful being, God surely does have a lot of petty human emotions, and a really horrible way of going about controlling (or not) everything.
 

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
Pete, what do you say to Christians who do believe in the literal, historical truth of Bible stories like the Flood, the ten plagues of Egypt, and the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, and do attribute all of these to God? I think there are a sizable number of Christians who take that position; there are several here on RF.
That I think that they are wrong. God has always been a God of Love. He didn't just start 2,000 years ago.
So far, you've pointed out that the objections and problems raised in this thread don't apply to your beliefs; don't you think there are other Christians (or, potentially, Jews, Muslims or perhaps Baha'i) who they do apply to?
I really haven't met one who views God as being blood thirsty. I have met a lot of Christians who don't understand what is going on with these and they say so.
Unless people want to harm others now, what their forefathers did is of little consequence to me. Look at Hitler's Germany. Does that mean that every German living today is about to start a blitzkreig? That's the real problem with such bigotry... it doesn't know when to end.
 

Jordan St. Francis

Well-Known Member
Penguin,
Little Timmy breaks a lamp. His father sees it, takes off his belt and says, "Who did this? Whoever's responsible is getting a beating."

Josh, Timmy's older brother, says, "Timmy did it, but he's so little that if you beat him, you'll kill him. I'll take responsibility; beat me instead."

The father could have decided not to beat anyone, but instead, he says, "Well, I know you didn't do it, but this belt's not going back on until someone gets beaten. Now hold still."

The picture of atonement presented by most Christian theology has exactly the same moral implications as the analogy I gave. The only difference is that "Josh" is asked to take the beating for billions upon billions of Timmies.
It really depends on whose version of atonement you are looking to. No doubt something like what you said above is taught by many Christians today, but I think it is not sufficient:

This idea that God had to punish someone as though under an obligation beyond his control does not seem to make sense to me. He could redeem us all by a mere thought, were that his will. He does not do so because such a redemption would amount to something like the repudiation of human nature. It would forget us as human beings and render the saved person something other than a saved human.

As the adage goes of St. Thomas Aquinas, "grace does not destroy nature, but uplifts and perfects it". Human freedom is fundamental to Christian theology (in my evaluation). It is also fundamental to what we mean by human being. We are "lifted out", so to speak, from the animal world and given the ability to be a kind of regent for God- to participate in his creative work, which is a labor of love, which is his being. Love is naturally creative, being in his image, this is the bottom impetus for the labor of human society. It imitates God's creative act and mirrors his inner life [as a Trinity].

The other side of this is the dark mess we have made with this responsibility and our emergent and seemingly primordial propensity towards destruction. Human choice has introduced sin and evil. Left on our own, we have permanently crippled ourselves in sin.

Desiring to preserve human nature, desiring not to subvert the freedom of beings in His image [who have it precisely because they are as such] , desiring not to save us without our consent, God instead takes the path that goes into the problem itself, into its heart as it were, rather than dismissing it away through his power. That is to say that the only way for God to confront the problem of human hubris without removing our option for it is to confront it with humility. The only way to confront the rampant human urge for power, while leaving humans able still to lust for it, is to give Christ in total submission. The only way for God to confront the destructive drive in human kind is to submit himself [in His Son] to the very power of that destruction, see it through to the other side, and turn an instrument of devilish cruelty into the symbol of divine life.

The atonement means that God has dug a tunnel through our own selves so that following him is at the same time a journey through our selves. We can't find God unless we also confront man's more gruesome face, but the Good News is that we find God [in Christ] already there having overcome it through submission.

There's a great paradox here, and I'm probably creating confusion...which is good because the Atonement is not meant to be so straightforward as is often portrayed.

St. Augustine said:

"He, who for us is life itself, descended here and endured our death and slew it with the abundance of his life. In a thunderous voice he called us to return to him...he did not delay, but ran crying out loud by his words, deeds, death, life, descent and ascent- calling us to return to him. And he has gone from our sight that we should return to our heart and find him there"
 
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Jordan St. Francis

Well-Known Member
If almighty God sets his mind to accomplishing some task... providing saving grace to all humanity, for instance, it gets done. If so much as one person is not saved, then this indicates that our initial premises were flawed, and either:

- God is not almighty.
- God didn't actually want to save all humanity.

Penguin
It is these kinds of ultimatums which always forget the human being in the equation. God desires to both save us and safeguard the dignity of his creation as beings in his own image- with the power to create and destroy- to love and to choose.

He saves us in a way that respects this human experiment here "down below" as an adventure of our autonomy. I believe that God respects our choices- even our weightier ones. We do have the power to make decisions that carry out with final implications for us- the possibility of being damned is not a failure on God's part, its an assurance of our genuine reality. We are not player pieces in his grand monopoly game.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Desiring to preserve human nature, desiring not to subvert the freedom of beings in His image [who have it precisely because they are as such] , desiring not to save us without our consent, God instead takes the path that goes into the problem itself, into its heart as it were, rather than dismissing it away through his power. That is to say that the only way for God to confront the problem of human hubris without removing our option for it is to confront it with humility. The only way to confront the rampant human urge for power, while leaving humans able still to lust for it, is to give Christ in total submission. The only way for God to confront the destructive drive in human kind is to submit himself [in His Son] to the very power of that destruction, see it through to the other side, and turn an instrument of devilish cruelty into the symbol of divine life.

The atonement means that God has dug a tunnel through our own selves so that following him is at the same time a journey through our selves. We can't find God unless we also confront man's more gruesome face, but the Good News is that we find God [in Christ] already there having overcome it through submission.

There's a great paradox here, and I'm probably creating confusion...which is good because the Atonement is not meant to be so straightforward as is often portrayed.
I wouldn't say you've created confusion. An impression that you're dancing around the issues involved, but not really confusion.

Penguin
It is these kinds of ultimatums which always forget the human being in the equation. God desires to both save us and safeguard the dignity of his creation as beings in his own image- with the power to create and destroy- to love and to choose.

He saves us in a way that respects this human experiment here "down below" as an adventure of our autonomy. I believe that God respects our choices- even our weightier ones. We do have the power to make decisions that carry out with final implications for us- the possibility of being damned is not a failure on God's part, its an assurance of our genuine reality. We are not player pieces in his grand monopoly game.
Here's my question in response: can people in Heaven sin?

I'll explain where I'm going with this in a bit.
 

Jordan St. Francis

Well-Known Member
Here's my question in response: can people in Heaven sin?

I doubt that there is any consensus on this point. Sin, when heaven comes, will have been overcome and all of those in heaven will therefore have "passed through it"- freely co-operated in being constituted a new creation.

Perhaps it is possible to say that they can sin, but I think it is certain that they will not.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I doubt that there is any consensus on this point. Sin, when heaven comes, will have been overcome and all of those in heaven will therefore have "passed through it"- freely co-operated in being constituted a new creation.

Perhaps it is possible to say that they can sin, but I think it is certain that they will not.
Okay... my point (which I did go at in a somewhat sneaky way :eek:) is this:

- if people in Heaven are incapable of sin, then they don't have free will, which negates the idea that God is overly concerned with granting it to humans.

- if people in Heaven can sin but choose not to, then it indicates that God is capable of creating a situation without sin where free will and human autonomy are maintained. To me, this seems to indicate that it would have been God's choice to create the sinful world from which arose the necessity for Christ's sacrifice.
 

Smoke

Done here.
Little Timmy breaks a lamp. His father sees it, takes off his belt and says, "Who did this? Whoever's responsible is getting a beating."

Josh, Timmy's older brother, says, "Timmy did it, but he's so little that if you beat him, you'll kill him. I'll take responsibility; beat me instead."

The father could have decided not to beat anyone, but instead, he says, "Well, I know you didn't do it, but this belt's not going back on until someone gets beaten. Now hold still."

The picture of atonement presented by most Christian theology has exactly the same moral implications as the analogy I gave.
I have heard Christians give examples very like that one to explain their belief in the atonement. It should be noted, however, that a belief in substitutionary atonement is strictly a Western belief, and is not accepted by the Orthodox churches.

There's a great paradox here, and I'm probably creating confusion...which is good because the Atonement is not meant to be so straightforward as is often portrayed.
You're creating confusion on my part, at least. You seem to be saying that substitutionary atonement is necessary because human nature requires it, but that doesn't make any sense to me. I think the reaction of just about everybody who doesn't have some stake in defending the doctrine is to find it morally repugnant.
 

Smoke

Done here.
Okay... my point (which I did go at in a somewhat sneaky way :eek:) is this:

- if people in Heaven are incapable of sin, then they don't have free will, which negates the idea that God is overly concerned with granting it to humans.

- if people in Heaven can sin but choose not to, then it indicates that God is capable of creating a situation without sin where free will and human autonomy are maintained. To me, this seems to indicate that it would have been God's choice to create the sinful world from which arose the necessity for Christ's sacrifice.
Unfortunately, I can't frubal you again yet.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I have heard Christians give examples very like that one to explain their belief in the atonement. It should be noted, however, that a belief in substitutionary atonement is strictly a Western belief, and is not accepted by the Orthodox churches.
Fair enough. What's the Orthodox view?
 

Jordan St. Francis

Well-Known Member
Midnight Blue
You're creating confusion on my part, at least. You seem to be saying that substitutionary atonement is necessary because human nature requires it, but that doesn't make any sense to me. I think the reaction of just about everybody who doesn't have some stake in defending the doctrine is to find it morally repugnant.
Sorry Midnight, perhaps I should not have used the word "atonement". I do not believe that the blood of Jesus saves us on account of a necessity of justice, but I would affirm that he died "in our stead". He took upon himself a death which was not his in order that we might have a life which is not, by nature, our own. We can not forget that we are baptized into his death, so it is Christ that goes ahead of us into death and overcomes it. We can follow him and live with him precisely because he is God and has incorporated us into his Body through baptism and the distribution of his flesh in blood.

I would say I have sympathies with the Orthodox theology here. Though I don't know it in detail, I am somewhat put off by some of the Western explanations. I understand Catholicism to encompass a range of theological options here.
 
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Jordan St. Francis

Well-Known Member
Penguin
if people in Heaven are incapable of sin, then they don't have free will, which negates the idea that God is overly concerned with granting it to humans.

- if people in Heaven can sin but choose not to, then it indicates that God is capable of creating a situation without sin where free will and human autonomy are maintained. To me, this seems to indicate that it would have been God's choice to create the sinful world from which arose the necessity for Christ's sacrifice.
A good question! I will sit on this for some time. My initial response would be that, in the Beatific Vision of heaven, human beings will have freely co-operated with their elevation to the divine state (participation in God's nature) where sin will have no place. But let us say the freedom to do so remains.

Surely God could have created the "divinized" human being from the beginning- but then it would not, from the beginning, have its own autonomous nature. If human beings were created already participating in the divine nature, then our human nature would never have been realized on its own terms.

...initial thoughts anyways.
 
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