God: more questions than answers

[Nimos]

If you read the entire Old Testament you would see the same conclusion as if you read the New Testament in some key ways:

God wants us to stop doing evil things to other people, and do good instead.

I assume this is from Isaiah?

If im not mistaken and from what you have quoted it is from the part about Judah and Israel?

Isaiah 1:1
1 - The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah.

So its not a general statement to the whole world, but about Israel and Gods chosen ones.

Job was a non-Jew.

Everyone in the Book of Genesis is a non-Jew.

Yonah was sent to Nineveh to preach to the people there, who weren't Jews.

The prophets mention non-Jews streaming to Jerusalem to worship God in the Messianic Era. He also has good things to say about non-Jews in these books as well.

Ruth was a non-Jew who joined the Jews.

God declared Koresh (Cyrus), a Persian likely Zoroastrian, in any case a non-Jew, his anointed.

Abraham were a Hebrew and part of Gods chosen. In regards to Job, it doesn't seem that they know exactly where it was, some put it somewhere in the southern part of Israel or the Kingdom Edom south of it.

Edom was an ancient kingdom that is mainly associated with Esau and his descendants in the Bible. Being descendants of Abraham, the Edomites were related to the Israelites. But they did not always act as brothers.

So Job is not just some random guy, but somehow related to Judah and Abraham.

Again, im not saying that God is against everyone, but in general, the OT is about the his relationship to his chosen people, whether you refer to them as the Hebrews or Jews, when you read the bible, you are not really in doubt who God likes and who he doesn't. At least in my opinion.

 

[Rival]

I assume this is from Isaiah?

If im not mistaken and from what you have quoted it is from the part about Judah and Israel?

Isaiah 1:1
1 - The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah.

So its not a general statement to the whole world, but about Israel and Gods chosen ones.


Abraham were a Hebrew and part of Gods chosen. In regards to Job, it doesn't seem that they know exactly where it was, some put it somewhere in the southern part of Israel or the Kingdom Edom south of it.

Edom was an ancient kingdom that is mainly associated with Esau and his descendants in the Bible. Being descendants of Abraham, the Edomites were related to the Israelites. But they did not always act as brothers.

So Job is not just some random guy, but somehow related to Judah and Abraham.

Again, im not saying that God is against everyone, but in general, the OT is about the his relationship to his chosen people, whether you refer to them as the Hebrews or Jews, when you read the bible, you are not really in doubt who God likes and who he doesn't. At least in my opinion.

These guys aren't Jews though. The Torah Covenant began at Sinai. And God's covenant with the non-Jews is the Noachide Covenant. The Jewish belief about Job is that he was a non-Jew. It's not about the race it's about the covenant one is under.

 

[Nimos]

These guys aren't Jews though. The Torah Covenant began at Sinai. And God's covenant with the non-Jews is the Noachide Covenant. The Jewish belief about Job is that he was a non-Jew. It's not about the race it's about the covenant one is under.

I don't think there is much point or even a need in having to identify every single of these.

Would you agree that God favors certain people over others in the OT? For instance does God think that Hebrew slaves ought to be treated the same as others?

When God helps the Israelites against their foes, wouldn't you say that he favors those over them? If he were the God for everyone, wouldn't it have made more sense for an all loving God to go and talk some sense into these and tell them to live in peace with the Israelites?

 

[Rival]

I don't think there is much point or even a need in having to identify every single of these.

Would you agree that God favors certain people over others in the OT? For instance does God think that Hebrew slaves ought to be treated the same as others?

When God helps the Israelites against their foes, wouldn't you say that he favors those over them? If he were the God for everyone, wouldn't it have made more sense for a all loving God to go and talk some sense into these and tell them to live in peace with the Israelites?

They're the priestly nation who have more commandments to follow and God has chosen them for that purpose, but it doesn't mean he doesn't care about other nations. I think reading the book of Yonah exemplifies this, where God is even concerned for their cattle.

There's also a saying in the Oral Torah that as the Egyptians were drowning in the Red Sea the angels wanted to sing, but God rebuked then saying, My handiwork is drowning in the sea and you want to sing?

 

[Nimos]

They're the priestly nation who have more commandments to follow and God has chosen them for that purpose, but it doesn't mean he doesn't care about other nations. I think reading the book of Yonah exemplifies this, where God is even concerned for their cattle.

There's also a saying in the Oral Torah that as the Egyptians were drowning in the Red Sea the angels wanted to sing, but God rebuked then saying, My handiwork is drowning in the sea and you want to sing?

Im not sure what it matters that some have more commandments than others? Isn't that like saying some slaves were treated worse than others, therefore slavery is fine?

If God see humans as equal, then they should also be treated equally. Wouldn't that be the very first rule when talking equality?

 

[Moonjuice]

Basically: WHO OR WHAT IS HE????

A complete and total man-made invention. A figment of the imagination that is passed on from generation to generation, changing over time as facts refute fiction.

If you really want to remove all your bias, start by asking “is this real at all?”, rather than beginning with that false assumption.

Then try and prove it with actual facts. After you fail like every other human who has ever asked this question, you will be left with a choice between
A) wishful thinking to make you feel better about a pretend reality or
B) Atheism (aka waiting for evidence) while experiencing actual reality.

Speaking for myself, life has gotten so much sweeter, certainly more meaningful.

 

[halbhh]

I assume this is from Isaiah?

If im not mistaken and from what you have quoted it is from the part about Judah and Israel?

Isaiah 1:1
1 - The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah.

So its not a general statement to the whole world, but about Israel and Gods chosen ones.


Abraham were a Hebrew and part of Gods chosen. In regards to Job, it doesn't seem that they know exactly where it was, some put it somewhere in the southern part of Israel or the Kingdom Edom south of it.

Edom was an ancient kingdom that is mainly associated with Esau and his descendants in the Bible. Being descendants of Abraham, the Edomites were related to the Israelites. But they did not always act as brothers.

So Job is not just some random guy, but somehow related to Judah and Abraham.

Again, im not saying that God is against everyone, but in general, the OT is about the his relationship to his chosen people, whether you refer to them as the Hebrews or Jews, when you read the bible, you are not really in doubt who God likes and who he doesn't. At least in my opinion.

Why Israel then? (why is there a chosen people? Just why?)

Let's look to context.

That's where we learn why there is a chosen individual, and then a people, and their purpose: "to be a light unto all the nations"....(as the famous verse says)

Why?

Context gives the answer.

Before there was a chosen individual (Abram, the father of Israel), we can see a need for something to help humanity change for the better.

Why?

Look again to context.

Here's a very key part of that context: the way we read in Genesis that the human condition/culture spiraled down and down, to become worse and worse...

To arrive even down to this condition:

5 The Lord saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time.

Genesis 6 NIV

Consider the words, the shocking situation in them: "every"...."only evil"...."all the time"....

And what comes next:

6The Lord regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled. 7So the Lord said, “I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created—and with them the animals, the birds and the creatures that move along the ground—for I regret that I have made them.”

So bad that there is no way to bring them out of it....

What's needed then?

Answer: the Rule of Law. And a people willing to at least some of them believe the Law should rule...

Why would anyone in that time believe the Law should be what rules even over the king?......

In order for there to begin a true Rule of Law, you have to have a way for people to believe the Law is above the king/warlord.

Which is exactly what you see happen in the text.

@Rival you might be interested in this post also possibly.

 

[Heyo]

I've been trying to de-familiarise myself with God - to put aside my old assumptions and beliefs about him and look at him with new eyes:

Try to refer to god as "it" not "him". Pronouns matter.

 

[DNB]

I do sound rather convincing at times, don't I?

Not for a second!

 

[DNB]

Try to refer to god as "it" not "him". Pronouns matter.

Yes, pronouns do matter a lot. Therefore, call Him, Him!

 

[Nimos]

Why Israel then? (why is there a chosen people? Just why?)

Let's look to context.

That's where we learn why there is a chosen individual, and then a people, and their purpose: "to be a light unto all the nations"....(as the famous verse says)

Why?

Context gives the answer.

Before there was a chosen individual (Abram, the father of Israel), we can see a need for something to help humanity change for the better.

Why?

Look again to context.

Here's a very key part of that context: the way we read in Genesis that the human condition/culture spiraled down and down, to become worse and worse...

To arrive even down to this condition:

5 The Lord saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time.

Genesis 6 NIV

Consider the words, the shocking situation in them: "every"...."only evil"...."all the time"....

And what comes next:

6The Lord regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled. 7So the Lord said, “I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created—and with them the animals, the birds and the creatures that move along the ground—for I regret that I have made them.”

So bad that there is no way to bring them out of it....

What's needed then?

Answer: the Rule of Law. And a people willing to at least some of them believe the Law should rule...

Why would anyone in that time believe the Law should be what rules even over the king?......

In order for there to begin a true Rule of Law, you have to have a way for people to believe the Law is above the king/warlord.

Which is exactly what you see happen in the text.

@Rival you might be interested in this post also possibly.

(Ignore the stuff below, not relevant)
I see where you are going with this, but you have the order completely wrong.

It goes like this:
God created humans, Adam and Eve sinned and got thrown out of the Eden. After this God saw that humans were wicked and killed everything, except Noa and his family and the animals on the Ark. Then we get to Abraham together with a few laws and after him we have Moses and it is first here we get the commandments and the all of the law, and eventually they get to Israel.

 

[halbhh]

I see where you are going with this, but you have the order completely wrong.

It goes like this:
God created humans, Adam and Eve sinned and got thrown out of the Eden. After this God saw that humans were wicked and killed everything, except Noa and his family and the animals on the Ark. Then we get to Abraham together with a few laws and after him we have Moses and it is first here we get the commandments and the all of the law, and eventually they get to Israel.

Interesting you think you can educate me about what I've read through more than 3 times, and being a rather careful reader and capable enough, and having studied it in many ways. Hmmm...perhaps you just didn't read my post very well, or just assumed it would have to be wrong without understanding what it said. Odd. And then you give a review of what 100% of us probably all already know....

Hmmm.... Maybe you are attempting to create a false impression my post would not be worthwhile to read?

I think that would indicate you wish people would not read it, if that's the situation. Interesting....

I may need to repeat it then, many places.

 

[DNB]

I've been trying to de-familiarise myself with God - to put aside my old assumptions and beliefs about him and look at him with new eyes:

To approach him as though I have never heard of him

This has lead to more questions than answers!

I am hoping to construct a fresh understanding of God from the ground up, as though I've never heard of him

So please, answer my questions...

I'm sure more people than just me would benefit from your answers

Here are my questions, which all assume he exists:

Who - or what - exactly is he? What type of thing is he?

Is he even a "he" - is he a person or something else?

What does he do?

What does he look like?

What does he want?

Does he care about us?

Does he have a mind?

Does he have a personality - and if so what is he like?

What has he ever done for us?

Who am I in relation to God?

Who are you in relation to God?

What does he do?

What does he want us to do?

Does he have a plan?

Where does he come from?

Does he favour some people over others? Or some groups over other groups?

What is he going to do in the future?

Is it possible to have a relationship with him?

There is only one God, only one divine being in the entire universe. For, if all the commonly accepted ascriptions of divinity are correct, then there cannot be more than one omnipotent, omnipresent or transcendent being - as there would be no attribute to differentiate one from the other. Nor would there be a need for another, for being perfect in every way, without a need for change, would make any other being of the same ontology the quintessence of redundancy.

The universe testifies to the power and character of God. His omnipotence is evidenced by the grandeur and intricacies of creation. His love is elucidated simply by the fact that He created mankind in order to enjoy Him and all the He created - and the only stipulation is to be good to one another. No one is here by their own accord, life is a gift from God, ...with a promise - there a greater things ahead if we remain faithful to Him and to one another.

Life is a miracle, the planets, mankind and all creation are beyond fathoming both their existence, and their integration and symbiotic relationship with one another. God's power, intelligence and sense of beauty is irrefutable, His laws are intended for man's betterment, and His decrees are meant for justice and holiness. God is beyond reproach and transcends human reasoning.

...and these realizations themselves, substantiate the notion that we are created in His image, i.e. able to perceive and comprehend spiritual issues (morality, justice, existence, holiness). Thus, if our constitution includes a spiritual dimension, as opposed to all other creatures on earth, there must be a source of that spirit. And, that source is God, who is holy, and is Spirit. The mere ability to either conceive or perceive of this notion, presupposes His existence.

 

[loverofhumanity]

I've been trying to de-familiarise myself with God - to put aside my old assumptions and beliefs about him and look at him with new eyes:

To approach him as though I have never heard of him

This has lead to more questions than answers!

I am hoping to construct a fresh understanding of God from the ground up, as though I've never heard of him

So please, answer my questions...

I'm sure more people than just me would benefit from your answers

Here are my questions, which all assume he exists:

Who - or what - exactly is he? What type of thing is he?

Is he even a "he" - is he a person or something else?

What does he do?

What does he look like?

What does he want?

Does he care about us?

Does he have a mind?

Does he have a personality - and if so what is he like?

What has he ever done for us?

Who am I in relation to God?

Who are you in relation to God?

What does he do?

What does he want us to do?

Does he have a plan?

Where does he come from?

Does he favour some people over others? Or some groups over other groups?

What is he going to do in the future?

Is it possible to have a relationship with him?

Firstly, God is not a human being but manifests Himself in human form in order for us to be able to communicate with Him and receive guidance and counsel.

If He appeared to us in His true form we would not be capable of withstanding His Presence as if the sun descended to earth.

In every world, He appears according to the capacity of that world. For example, in the world of spirits He manifests Himself to them and appears unto them with the signs of the Spirit. So, likewise, in bodies in the world of names and attributes..

Verily, were God the Exalted to appear in His (proper) grade and form, and in a manner befitting His Station, no one could ever approach Him or endure to be near Him.
(Baha’u’llah)

So God speaks to mankind through a human form in order that we can understand according to our capacity. These Prophets such as Christ teach us that there is a God and tell us of His attributes such as love, mercy, kindness, forgiveness, justice and many more.

God has always sent a Representative in each age to give us a plan to progress spiritually, intellectually and socially. Man is forever advancing according to God’s plan for us.

We are told in my religion the reason God created us.


“I have breathed within thee a breath of My own Spirit, that thou mayest be My lover.”

We can have a spiritual relationship with God by being His lover meaning to worship and obey His laws and Teachings which are created to give us happiness. So to love one another would turn this world into a paradise.

God does not need us but wants someone to share His love and gifts with so He created us. By making us His children He can share Himself, His knowledge and wisdom and other blessings with us.

His only wish is to give and see us happy.

 

[Heyo]

Yes, pronouns do matter a lot. Therefore, call Him, Him!

You didn't read the OP, did you? @Eddi wanted to de-familiarise himself from god so he can discover it with an open, unbiased mind. One step in that process is to try to not attribute a gender to it. You know the process is complete when you call god "it" without fail and without thinking that something sounds wrong.
And when you go on and discover god and find dangling parts between its legs, you can call it "him" with justification.

 

[firedragon]

I've been trying to de-familiarise myself with God - to put aside my old assumptions and beliefs about him and look at him with new eyes:

To approach him as though I have never heard of him

This has lead to more questions than answers!

I am hoping to construct a fresh understanding of God from the ground up, as though I've never heard of him

So please, answer my questions...

I'm sure more people than just me would benefit from your answers

Here are my questions, which all assume he exists:

Who - or what - exactly is he? What type of thing is he?

Is he even a "he" - is he a person or something else?

What does he do?

What does he look like?

What does he want?

Does he care about us?

Does he have a mind?

Does he have a personality - and if so what is he like?

What has he ever done for us?

Who am I in relation to God?

Who are you in relation to God?

What does he do?

What does he want us to do?

Does he have a plan?

Where does he come from?

Does he favour some people over others? Or some groups over other groups?

What is he going to do in the future?

Is it possible to have a relationship with him?

Well. I will try to respond to your questions from a traditional Islamic perspective.

1. God is the creator, the necessary being. There is nothing like him.
2. No gender. Refer 1. Where it says "there is nothing like him".
3. He is the creator.
4. Refer number 1.
5. We dont really understand plans of a so called God because we cannot really speak to him.
6. Where does he come from you asked. If you refer to point one, you would see that he is the necessary being, so he does not come from anywhere.
7. Yes. God apparently does favour the righteous, the believers, etc.
8. Yes. One could have a relationship with God or maybe even already does.

Your questions are going backwards from an already accepting or rejecting a God that you have in mind. I should say that rather than going into personalities etc, start from the existence, logically.

 

[rational experiences]

The him he his before me is. Beast animal.

I know my he him his science human brother preaches it.

Maybe if he stopped quoting his own human self a God then maybe relativity would teach him he lies.

As just a natural human like everyone else.

I don't find creation confounding as I don't pretend I need to know it to practice machine sciences

First claiming an alien is inside first machine I must copy that status a god for my machine.

Because it is what you did

You learnt you were not any alien machine owner when it tried to land on earth in its highest spirit form a burning gas.

All said by the He him his man science self

Would you claim God confounds you or God destroyed you?

 

[RestlessSoul]

When you look up at the sky at night, the milkiness that is the swath of all stars and galaxies pushing out their light rays toward anything and everything out there can actually "go bad" - much like actual, protein-rich milk here on Earth. The "entities" that enact this fermentation of the "milkiness" of matter and space are just normal chemical and subatomic force processes that have always existed - just an immutable fact of our universe from the reaches of forever - think something like the radioactive decay of isotopes. The effects of this "going bad" produce a growth, of sorts, of various particles and energies and waves in configurations that don't exist without the process, and these are linked in vast chains underlying the entire universe from concentration of mass to concentration of mass - like the mycelium of vast fungal colonies. signals and energies can travel along these chains, and they pick up and sort of "become" information, as changes in various other forces and conditions around them along the way of their journey through the chain modify their behavior, charges or direction. This "information" given a long enough brewing time and ample opportunity for occurrences to duplicate over and over and over again produces a sort of "memory" that begins to formulate as a kind of "thought" of the universe itself. As this evolves and becomes more memory, and more experience, and as the signals whir around and around all the aspects of all parts of the entire spectrum of all that is, the "thought" in the form of memory gradually becomes a question of what the "memory" is. And as that abstract idea is able to be fomented in this "mycelium of the universe" the emergence of consciousness is imminent. The ongoing evolution of that "thought" process is "God", fostered by the particle and energy trail left behind by the universe "going bad."

Now... provided you believe all that (I mean... I do sound rather convincing at times, don't I?), I have a bridge I think you would be very, very interested in. PM me for details and pricing.

You should probably keep the bridge. Sounds like you're already halfway across it.

 

[Nimos]

Interesting you think you can educate me about what I've read through more than 3 times, and being a rather careful reader and capable enough, and having studied it in many ways. Hmmm...perhaps you just didn't read my post very well, or just assumed it would have to be wrong without understanding what it said. Odd. And then you give a review of what 100% of us probably all already know....

Hmmm.... Maybe you are attempting to create a false impression my post would not be worthwhile to read?

I think that would indicate you wish people would not read it, if that's the situation. Interesting....

I may need to repeat it then, many places.

My mistake, sorry

I reread your post (probably read it a bit to fast the first time ), I think you are correct in what you write and that it was the original idea of the bible. A common law under God and as with all other religions at the time, something to bind them together as a nation.

Again, I should have read it more careful

 

[Colt]

Basically: WHO OR WHAT IS HE????

God is the Universal Father, the God of all creation.