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God: more questions than answers

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
Not for a second!
Exactly! And no less or more convincing than ANYONE claiming to know the realities behind these things without ponying up actual worthwhile evidence. So, I'm in the same, exact ballpark as any Christian I have ever talked to, for instance, who claims that they "know" what God is or is about.
 

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
You should probably keep the bridge. Sounds like you're already halfway across it.
Are you people seriously not getting that my entire post was facetious? Basically a satire to point out the absolute foolishness of ANYONE pretending to have "the answers" to what God is or isn't. This is precisely why, in the end, I offered up the "bridge for sale." I don't have a bridge! NOR DO ANY OF YOU. So that makes me lying about the bridge... just as ANY of you are LYING about your knowledge of any supposed God. Any and all of you... LYING.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Exactly! And no less or more convincing than ANYONE claiming to know the realities behind these things without ponying up actual worthwhile evidence. So, I'm in the same, exact ballpark as any Christian I have ever talked to, for instance, who claims that they "know" what God is or is about.

Ultimately, it will end up being one's viewpoint of what one sees and comes to a conclusion based on that evidence. You actually can come to two different viewpoints...

1) That evolution was chance
2) That evolution was designed with purpose by a being... we can call Him God.

What is "worthwhile" is still in the eyes of the seer. I can look at Christian scriptures and say "See... only God can create this Bible" and a non-Christian cans say "See... only man could create the Bible".

Beauty is still in the eyes of the beholder and everyone is convinced he/she is right...

of course, :) . my bridge is the right one. :)
 

RestlessSoul

Well-Known Member
Are you people seriously not getting that my entire post was facetious? Basically a satire to point out the absolute foolishness of ANYONE pretending to have "the answers" to what God is or isn't. This is precisely why, in the end, I offered up the "bridge for sale." I don't have a bridge! NOR DO ANY OF YOU. So that makes me lying about the bridge... just as ANY of you are LYING about your knowledge of any supposed God. Any and all of you... LYING.


Go and have a lie down dear, you're getting all emotional again. Can't be good for you, upsetting yourself like that.

We got your "joke" btw.
 

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
my bridge is the right one. :)
And this is where we will always be at odds. You do, honestly believe that your bridge is "the right one." I don't know that... I don't have such confidence in any position I positively hold. All I have is what appears to be in comport with the reality I continually experience and what does not appear to be... so that is what I am going with. If someone produces actual, verifiable evidence for God, or can get something related to God to produce results on a consistent basis that indicates that there is a fundamental reality to said thing that cannot be rationally denied, then I will hop on board, but still be only as sure about it as the evidence continues to provide... as soon as someone else has a better or more compelling explanation/demonstration/etc. and their efforts produce even more consistent results, well then I will wave goodbye to you and your less compelling, less realistic position.
 
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RestlessSoul

Well-Known Member
According to your reply... no you didn't.

I ignored the rest of your message by the way. Who cares what you think of my tone? Please concentrate on the content... provided you are able.


I can't hear your content, because your tone is deafening. It's possible that you may have something insightful to say. But if you don't learn to express yourself without dispensing gratuitous insults, guess what? You will never get a fair hearing, because you will not deserve one.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Jesus wasn't the Second person of the Paradise Trinity, he's a creation of the Trinity. The Universal Father delegates creatives powers and authority to subordinate Deities who in turn work with their counterparts in the creation of their respective domains.
I'll let your fellow Christians debate you on this point. I don't believe in the Trinity or "God the Son," etc. So I don't have a dog in the race.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
And this is where we will always be at odds. You do, honestly believe that your bridge is "the right one." I don't know that... I don't have such confidence in any position I positively hold. All I have is what appears to be in comport with the reality I continually experience and what does not appear to be... so that is what I am going with. If someone produces actual, verifiable evidence for God, or can get something related to God to produce results on a consistent basis that indicates that there is a fundamental reality to said thing that cannot be rationally denied, then I will hop on board, but still be only as sure about it as the evidence continues to provide... as soon as someone else has a better or more compelling explanation/demonstration/etc. and their efforts produce even more consistent results, well then I will wave goodbye to you and your less compelling, less realistic position.

Understand completely. Each person has to personally come to a point of "what I am going with".

Of course, it is easy for people to say "If someone produces actual, verifiable evidence for God" without really seeking (not saying that it is your position).

In other words, there are people who approach a question with the answer already made up. I like this parable that Jesus gave::

18The first said, ‘I have just bought a field, and I must go and see it. Please excuse me.’
19 “Another said, ‘I have just bought five yoke of oxen, and I’m on my way to try them out. Please excuse me.’
20 “Still another said, ‘I just got married, so I can’t come.’

In other words, I'm not really going to try, not going to seek answers, not going to ask questions, not going to knock on the doors of opportunities.

I did that... I had all the right answers like "Everyone interprets the Bible like they want" without really finding what it says. And, of course, we can point to all the reasons why this would be true without really seeking an interpretation (that was me).

I assume you are doing due diligence so have a great journey of seeking, asking and knocking until you come to your position of "what I am going with".

Namaste, shalom and happy hunting.

Ken
 
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Segev Moran

Well-Known Member
Who - or what - exactly is he? What type of thing is he?
No one knows. It is also usually claimed that we have no way of understanding it as it exceeds our brain abilities.
Is he even a "he" - is he a person or something else?
It is not a he.
It is not a character.
It is something that cannot really be explained or understood.
What does he do?
It governs the way things work in our existence.
What does he look like?
How does vacuum look like?
how does light look like?
We only see a fraction of what we KNOW is out there.
What does he want?
This is a hard question. I would argue its the number one question humans try to answer.
The Jewish belief claims it want us to experience itself.
Does he care about us?
The same as life cares about surviving.
Does he have a mind?
Depends on what you mean "mind", but I would argue it does.
Does he have a personality - and if so what is he like?
Not really.
Its like asking of humans have a personality.
Does the universe have a personality?
What has he ever done for us?
Everything.
Who am I in relation to God?
A small fraction on a whole.
This fraction as being a part of a whole, is no less or more important the the whole itself.
Who are you in relation to God?
The same answer.
What does he do?
It what drives everything in motion and keeps it all as it should.
What does he want us to do?
succeed as an individual, community, specie, life, existence.
Does he have a plan?
So it seems :)
Where does he come from?
Not really relevant.
It comes from something that cannot be explained.
Does he favour some people over others? Or some groups over other groups?
Not really :)
it will be very contradicting to its own logic.
What is he going to do in the future?
Only god know ;)
The Jewish belief suggests it will not allow humans to become extinct and in the most desperate time of humanity, it will help and direct us in the right direction (actually its much more complex than that but that is the general idea).
Is it possible to have a relationship with him?
I think you are in a relationship with it whether you want it or not.
It will be the same as asking if it is possible for a fish to be in relationship with the sea.
 

DNB

Christian
God transcends gender. We refer to him as a him only out of convenience -- in Hebrew you only had two pronouns to choose from and one had to be chosen. But the tradition of referring to God as our Father doesn't make him actually a male being.
Of course God cannot be classified as anything corporeal, but considering that that was how the Patriarchs referred to Him, then it's the only reverent manner in which to do so.
 

DNB

Christian
Exactly! And no less or more convincing than ANYONE claiming to know the realities behind these things without ponying up actual worthwhile evidence. So, I'm in the same, exact ballpark as any Christian I have ever talked to, for instance, who claims that they "know" what God is or is about.
No, you went off on some convoluted tangent that was barely possible to even follow. You weren't able to be more precise and assertive, but were vague and indecisive appearing more flaky rather than astute.
 

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
I can't hear your content, because your tone is deafening. It's possible that you may have something insightful to say. But if you don't learn to express yourself without dispensing gratuitous insults, guess what? You will never get a fair hearing, because you will not deserve one.
Sure sure... keep telling yourself that.

I'm sure your tone, which is known to include condescending gems like "Go and have a lie down dear" is just so so high brow and "above it all." You've so obviously "learn[ed] to express yourself without dispensing gratuitous insults". Can you please teach me? Hahahaha... what a joke.
 

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
No, you went off on some convoluted tangent that was barely possible to even follow. You weren't able to be more precise and assertive, but were vague and indecisive appearing more flaky rather than astute.
Exactly!!!!!! Damn.. you people and your inability to be introspective. What is this?
 

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
Understand completely. Each person has to personally come to a point of "what I am going with".
Agreed... but when it is pointed out that you have no true-to-life backing for your words, except what you have been told by others, or read in a book somewhere, and you can't reproduce any part or parcel of any extraordinary bit of explanation that appears in those stories/books (like praying for a thing and actually achieving results) then you can't expect others to climb on board your soap box with you. Not like those who DO have such backing for their statements - or at least closer to it.

Of course, it is easy for people to say "If someone produces actual, verifiable evidence for God" without really seeking (not saying that it is your position).
And I posit that it SHOULD be that easy. if you don't have the goods, then people should stop listening to you when they realize that your words are not in comport with reality, and that you don't have the backing to even demonstrate how they really are (even if it may not be apparent). The guy(s) who first put forth that disease was caused by super tiny organisms probably got some pushback... but then they had skeptics look into a microscope, or purposefully infected an organism with what they knew to be a virus and had them witness the results themselves... and then it was a done deal for anyone with half a teaspoon of rationality.

In other words, there are people who approach a question with the answer already made up. I like this parable that Jesus gave::

18The first said, ‘I have just bought a field, and I must go and see it. Please excuse me.’
19 “Another said, ‘I have just bought five yoke of oxen, and I’m on my way to try them out. Please excuse me.’
20 “Still another said, ‘I just got married, so I can’t come.’

In other words, I'm not really going to try, not going to seek answers, not going to ask questions, not going to knock on the doors of opportunities.
I suppose I am missing some context - but I am trying to figure this one out. So... what you're getting at here is that Jesus invited these men to come hear him speak and "give the answers", but they each had an excuse to bow out? So... here's the real problem I have with this: I was in a sermon once where a man stood up during a particularly high "in the spirit moment" where there were people laying their hands and foreheads on the ground, moaning, casting about, or speaking in tongues - the man who stood up began saying things like "I am the way and I have been with you since the beginning..." - pretty obviously speaking as if he were some form of "Second coming" in the first person - at least this is what I interpreted and was the vibe I got off of him. However - no sooner had he started into it with those words than at least 5 other church members grabbed his arms and dragged him out of the church despite his verbal protests. Now... here is my problem... what if those other church members - or indeed ALL of those church members were, in this instance "not really going to try", or were "not going to seek answers" or were "not going to knock on the doors of opportunities"? What if this man's apparent epiphany was actually God speaking through him, or some other divine intervention that was an opportunity for them all? How could they SO EASILY seem to know that it wasn't and just dismiss him. I think we both know the answer... and that is precisely how quickly and easily I can dismiss that anything you have to offer from your religion as being not worth the effort. I have oodles of experience with it, and as soon as I hear you talking, and can catch wind of where the conversation is going, then it is decided. Unless you miraculously pull off a grand slam of evidence and cogent demonstration, I will shut you down. Any time I have listened, can you guess how many times a religious person has actually had something novel and worthwhile to say that convinced me of something? Zero. Zero times. You would say that this is because I have closed my mind to the possibilities... but this simply isn't true. I let them say their piece - I always do. But in the end, it is never anything compelling in the slightest. Never. No one should be swayed by the types of things that are said by these people. Not one. The fact that anyone is is a mark of shame on humanity in my opinion.

I assume you are doing due diligence so have a great journey of seeking, asking and knocking until you come to your position of "what I am going with".
I have listened, and I have read, and I have contemplated more times than you would probably like to admit could be true. In the end, none of it is worth very much at all. A few worthwhile lessons built into some interesting prose... but not much more than that.
 

RestlessSoul

Well-Known Member
Sure sure... keep telling yourself that.

I'm sure your tone, which is known to include condescending gems like "Go and have a lie down dear" is just so so high brow and "above it all." You've so obviously "learn[ed] to express yourself without dispensing gratuitous insults". Can you please teach me? Hahahaha... what a joke.


Yes, I was condescending. I apologise for that.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
I have listened, and I have read, and I have contemplated more times than you would probably like to admit could be true. In the end, none of it is worth very much at all. A few worthwhile lessons built into some interesting prose... but not much more than that.

And I am fine with that. That was your conclusion and you are at peace. You won't have me arguing the point.

Agreed... but when it is pointed out that you have no true-to-life backing for your words, except what you have been told by others, or read in a book somewhere, and you can't reproduce any part or parcel of any extraordinary bit of explanation that appears in those stories/books (like praying for a thing and actually achieving results) then you can't expect others to climb on board your soap box with you. Not like those who DO have such backing for their statements - or at least closer to it.

Agreed. But since in my true-to-life situations, I have prayed ad God has answered on dozens of occasions... I am fine with my decision. But obviously, that was my decision.

And I posit that it SHOULD be that easy. if you don't have the goods, then people should stop listening to you when they realize that your words are not in comport with reality, and that you don't have the backing to even demonstrate how they really are (even if it may not be apparent). The guy(s) who first put forth that disease was caused by super tiny organisms probably got some pushback... but then they had skeptics look into a microscope, or purposefully infected an organism with what they knew to be a virus and had them witness the results themselves... and then it was a done deal for anyone with half a teaspoon of rationality.

If you don't have the goods, I agree. On a side note, when the Bubonic plague was placed on Dr. John G Lakes hand, it was those super tiny organisms that got pushed back... they died.

John G Lake: Bubonic Plague Testimony

I suppose I am missing some context - but I am trying to figure this one out. So... what you're getting at here is that Jesus invited these men to come hear him speak and "give the answers", but they each had an excuse to bow out? So... here's the real problem I have with this: I was in a sermon once where a man stood up during a particularly high "in the spirit moment" where there were people laying their hands and foreheads on the ground, moaning, casting about, or speaking in tongues - the man who stood up began saying things like "I am the way and I have been with you since the beginning..." - pretty obviously speaking as if he were some form of "Second coming" in the first person - at least this is what I interpreted and was the vibe I got off of him. However - no sooner had he started into it with those words than at least 5 other church members grabbed his arms and dragged him out of the church despite his verbal protests. Now... here is my problem... what if those other church members - or indeed ALL of those church members were, in this instance "not really going to try", or were "not going to seek answers" or were "not going to knock on the doors of opportunities"? What if this man's apparent epiphany was actually God speaking through him, or some other divine intervention that was an opportunity for them all? How could they SO EASILY seem to know that it wasn't and just dismiss him. I think we both know the answer... and that is precisely how quickly and easily I can dismiss that anything you have to offer from your religion as being not worth the effort. I have oodles of experience with it, and as soon as I hear you talking, and can catch wind of where the conversation is going, then it is decided. Unless you miraculously pull off a grand slam of evidence and cogent demonstration, I will shut you down. Any time I have listened, can you guess how many times a religious person has actually had something novel and worthwhile to say that convinced me of something? Zero. Zero times. You would say that this is because I have closed my mind to the possibilities... but this simply isn't true. I let them say their piece - I always do. But in the end, it is never anything compelling in the slightest. Never. No one should be swayed by the types of things that are said by these people. Not one. The fact that anyone is is a mark of shame on humanity in my opinion.

Maybe on this one... it is irrelevant as I conclude the following:

you have done due diligence, you are fine with your decision and are at peace. No argument on my part. Enjoy life!

I hope I am not coming across combative.
 
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A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
Maybe on this one... it is irrelevant as I conclude the following:

you have done due diligence, you are fine with your decision and are at peace. No argument on my part. Enjoy life!

I hope I am not coming across combative.
No, certainly not combative... but certainly not addressing the problem I raised earlier either (the problem of the man's speech getting him immediately dragged out of church) - and I understand why... I just hope that you understand why also.
 
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