God Recreated the Earth 6,000 Years Ago!

[gnostic]

lots of believers are rational

I think repeated call for evidence about God is irrational

Indeed it is....irrationality is being too kind....

You both are ones to talk about irrationality.

We are not talking about the existence of God...the recent debate have been over the existence of Moses...unless you think Moses is God?

But then again, some irrational Christians believe that Jesus is God, born from a virgin, die and then come back to life. Is that rational?

So is it far more rational to believe in a serpent or a donkey that can talk?

Or angels that have 4 or 6 wings, or 4 faces (or was that 4 heads), one of man, the others of lion, ox and eagle (Ezekiel 1). Is that any way rational?

It sounds to me, the talking animals and 4-face angels demonstrate the authors as being over-imaginative, drunk, high on mushrooms or simply delusional.

 

[gnostic]

Until you provide proof that Moses did not exist.....you are left with mere speculative belief...no rationality at all.....

The absence of any evidence is the refutation to Moses' existence.

There are no evidences to support the exodus, so the exodus didn't happen the way Exodus say it happen.

There are no evidences to support the invasion of Canaan, by Israelites, led by Joshua, so it didn't happen.

In the battle, in which God stop the Sun, so they could fight longer, just how irrationality rules the bible. I have already mentioned 4-face, 4-winged angels, and talking animals.

Can you prove that serpent or donkey can talk? If you can't then Genesis 3 and Numbers (don't remember the chapter), then it didn't happen.

Can you prove any such things as the 4-face angel (from Ezekiel 1)?

You don't even understand the words "fact", "evidence" or "irrationality".

 

[Ben Dhyan]

You both are ones to talk about irrationality.

We are not talking about the existence of God...the recent debate have been over the existence of Moses...unless you think Moses is God?

But then again, some irrational Christians believe that Jesus is God, born from a virgin, die and then come back to life. Is that rational?

So is it far more rational to believe in a serpent or a donkey that can talk?

Or angels that have 4 or 6 wings, or 4 faces (or was that 4 heads), one of man, the others of lion, ox and eagle (Ezekiel 1). Is that any way rational?

It sounds to me, the talking animals and 4-face angels demonstrate the authors as being over-imaginative, drunk, high on mushrooms or simply delusional.

Do you know what you are in the context of God, ie.. the absolute?

Do you understand the symbolism of the serpent in the Egyptian esoteric or Indian Kundalini serpent esoteric tradition?

How many years have you been studying religion to properly understand what religion means to the adherents?

You are welcome to your opinion, but there can be no fruitful discussion unless it is between relative equals in the topic....it is irrational for a non-believer to imagine they know about the deeper truth of religion...

 

[Ben Dhyan]

The absence of any evidence is the refutation to Moses' existence.

There are no evidences to support the exodus, so the exodus didn't happen the way Exodus say it happen.

There are no evidences to support the invasion of Canaan, by Israelites, led by Joshua, so it didn't happen.

In the battle, in which God stop the Sun, so they could fight longer, just how irrationality rules the bible. I have already mentioned 4-face, 4-winged angels, and talking animals.

Can you prove that serpent or donkey can talk? If you can't then Genesis 3 and Numbers (don't remember the chapter), then it didn't happen.

Can you prove any such things as the 4-face angel (from Ezekiel 1)?

You don't even understand the words "fact", "evidence" or "irrationality".

But there is not an absence of evidence that Moses was real, there is claim by some that refutes the evidence...that's a big difference....and even those like Denver who refute the evidence do not refute the rational possibility of Moses as being a real entity of the time...

What there is no proof of from anyone is that Moses was not a real entity....if you think otherwise....as they say...put up or **** **

 

[gnostic]

Do you understand the symbolism of the serpent in the Egyptian esoteric or Indian Kundalini serpent esoteric tradition?

That's pathetic. Are you going to go way off topic now.

OK, I'll play...provided that you answer any question that I may have.

Indian serpent, no. I know nothing about the symbolism of Indian Kundalini serpent.

But the Egyptian serpents, yes.

There are several deities, especially figure largely in Egyptian religions.

Two of the goddesses are very ancient, and they existed prior to the unification of two predynastic kingdoms - Upper Egypt and Lower Egypt - and both are protectors of the respective rulers - both known as Horus (meaning king or pharaoh = Horus, the falcon- or hawk-headed god, one of the oldest Egyptian god). They are -

• Wadjet of the city of Dep (later called Per-Wadjet, house of Wadjet, or Buto during the 1st millennium BCE), Lower Egypt (northern kindgom, the Delta); her name in hieroglyph is represented as cobra. She is often seen wearing the Red Crown, and her symbol is that of papyrus.

• Nekhbet of the city of Nekheb, Upper Egypt (southern kingdom); although, Nekhbet was sometimes seen as the vulture-headed goddess, and her name written in hieroglyph has a vulture, not the snake glyph. Her is the white crown, often with two cobra flanking the crown, and her symbol is that of lotus.

Each is depicted as goddess with a woman body, but head of cobra, with a different crown (diadem) on its head that symbolize their respective kingdom (Lower and Upper Egypt). The human rulers of both predynastic kingdoms would wear the same types of respective crowns, before the kingdoms were united.

When the two kingdoms became one kingdom (about 3050 BCE), the king (of the 1st dynasty) have unified it symbols of Lower and Upper, together, like the king would possess both papyrus and lotus symbols, and two crown in one.

Both are seen as protectors of kings, and their families, both have the power to give life or take it (the cobra's venom), both have the power to heal. Do you know the Greek caduceus, a staff with two snakes, was said to be staff of Apollo (to heal) or that of Hermes, the god who guide the dead? Well, the earliest symbol of healing, actually come from the Wadjet's symbol - the cobra entwined on the staff.

Both goddesses were symbols of the Eyes of Horus, again representing the king's or Horus' power.

The sun god Re (or Ra) was sometimes seen as ruler, as well and both goddesses are often seen as Re's attendants. The symbol of Re is normally the sun disk, but sometimes it was depicted with one rearing cobra or both cobras, representing the destructive power of the sun.

There are other serpent goddesses, as well as a few male serpent gods, and the most important one is that of Apep, in which perhaps you him as Apophis.

Apep or Apophis was the giant snake god of destruction and chaos. Every day, Re's sun boat move across the sky, bringing daylight to the world (or at least to Egypt), but at night, the sun boat entered into and sail through the Underworld (or Netherworld), doing battle with Apep and other minions (demons) do battle with Re and his crew. At the end of each night, Re defeated and beheaded Apep, but the cycle of day and night the battle get repeated in a new night. Wadjet and Nekhbet were represented again as cobras, that sit on the prow of the sun boat, and most demons would cower in the face of these two goddesses. This is whole scene of the sun boat, both night and day, symbolise not only the duality of day and night, but also light versus darkness, good versus evil, and so on.

Serpents can also that of lizards, or more specifically in Egyptian religion/myth, like the crocodile. The most notable Sobek, but I don't remember much of him, but I believe he also represent power of king, of fertility and of healing, often seen with Isis in the Netherworld. Sobek was also son of Neith.

I know these things because I have read some of Egyptian literature (Pyramid Texts, Coffin Texts, Book of the Dead, and various papyri) because I was researching for a new sister website of Timeless Myths, back in 2006, but got postponed, sadly indefinitely. I still have all my notes, hoping to restart this venture. It would have contain Egyptian, Mesopotamian and Ugartic religions/myths.

Truly, I don't know why you even bother of asking question.

Well, I still have questions that you have not bother to answer.

Do you think it is rational to literally believe in talking serpent, talking donkey, angels with wings, angels with four faces, creating man from dust?

They were original separate questions, but you have made me repeat them.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

That's pathetic. Are you going to go way off topic now.

OK, I'll play...provided that you answer any question that I may have.

Indian serpent, no. I know nothing about the symbolism of Indian Kundalini serpent.

But the Egyptian serpents, yes.

There are several deities, especially figure largely in Egyptian religions.

Two of the goddesses are very ancient, and they existed prior to the unification of two predynastic kingdoms - Upper Egypt and Lower Egypt - and both are protectors of the respective rulers - both known as Horus (meaning king or pharaoh = Horus, the falcon- or hawk-headed god, one of the oldest Egyptian god). They are -

• Wadjet of the city of Dep (later called Per-Wadjet, house of Wadjet, or Buto during the 1st millennium BCE), Lower Egypt (northern kindgom, the Delta); her name in hieroglyph is represented as cobra. She is often seen wearing the Red Crown, and her symbol is that of papyrus.

• Nekhbet of the city of Nekheb, Upper Egypt (southern kingdom); although, Nekhbet was sometimes seen as the vulture-headed goddess, and her name written in hieroglyph has a vulture, not the snake glyph. Her is the white crown, often with two cobra flanking the crown, and her symbol is that of lotus.

Each is depicted as goddess with a woman body, but head of cobra, with a different crown (diadem) on its head that symbolize their respective kingdom (Lower and Upper Egypt). The human rulers of both predynastic kingdoms would wear the same types of respective crowns, before the kingdoms were united.

When the two kingdoms became one kingdom (about 3050 BCE), the king (of the 1st dynasty) have unified it symbols of Lower and Upper, together, like the king would possess both papyrus and lotus symbols, and two crown in one.

Both are seen as protectors of kings, and their families, both have the power to give life or take it (the cobra's venom), both have the power to heal. Do you know the Greek caduceus, a staff with two snakes, was said to be staff of Apollo (to heal) or that of Hermes, the god who guide the dead? Well, the earliest symbol of healing, actually come from the Wadjet's symbol - the cobra entwined on the staff.

Both goddesses were symbols of the Eyes of Horus, again representing the king's or Horus' power.

The sun god Re (or Ra) was sometimes seen as ruler, as well and both goddesses are often seen as Re's attendants. The symbol of Re is normally the sun disk, but sometimes it was depicted with one rearing cobra or both cobras, representing the destructive power of the sun.

There are other serpent goddesses, as well as a few male serpent gods, and the most important one is that of Apep, in which perhaps you him as Apophis.

Apep or Apophis was the giant snake god of destruction and chaos. Every day, Re's sun boat move across the sky, bringing daylight to the world (or at least to Egypt), but at night, the sun boat entered into and sail through the Underworld (or Netherworld), doing battle with Apep and other minions (demons) do battle with Re and his crew. At the end of each night, Re defeated and beheaded Apep, but the cycle of day and night the battle get repeated in a new night. Wadjet and Nekhbet were represented again as cobras, that sit on the prow of the sun boat, and most demons would cower in the face of these two goddesses. This is whole scene of the sun boat, both night and day, symbolise not only the duality of day and night, but also light versus darkness, good versus evil, and so on.

Serpents can also that of lizards, or more specifically in Egyptian religion/myth, like the crocodile. The most notable Sobek, but I don't remember much of him, but I believe he also represent power of king, of fertility and of healing, often seen with Isis in the Netherworld. Sobek was also son of Neith.

I know these things because I have read some of Egyptian literature (Pyramid Texts, Coffin Texts, Book of the Dead, and various papyri) because I was researching for a new sister website of Timeless Myths, back in 2006, but got postponed, sadly indefinitely. I still have all my notes, hoping to restart this venture. It would have contain Egyptian, Mesopotamian and Ugartic religions/myths.

Truly, I don't know why you even bother of asking question.

Well, I still have questions that you have not bother to answer.

Do you think it is rational to literally believe in talking serpent, talking donkey, angels with wings, angels with four faces, creating man from dust?

They were original separate questions, but you have made me repeat them.

No, I specified esoteric, not corrupted exoteric scholarship....and it is not a digression as it is related to the serpent of the garden of Eden which you raised first....in all cases it refers to a cosmic primordial energy related to the incarnate soul of the mortal...it is the mortal coil that leaves the body at death on the one hand, but if it leaves the body while the human is still alive through proper religious practice, it reunites with the parent spirit aka Divine Father, God,etc.., the soul becomes an enlightened being, an immortal being, and never reincarnates again... The serpentine energy resides dormant in the lower spine of the uninitiated and when aroused through proper religious practice, rises up the spine to leave from the top of the head...

 

[gnostic]

No, I specified esoteric, not corrupted exoteric scholarship....

Man, you sure crap.

I have answered your question, but you evade mine, by moving the goalposts.

I have been open and frank by answering your question, and I have answer it directly. Whether you are satisfied with my answer or not, is beside the point, because as I said I had answered you directly, without hedging.

Why should I put up with you putting more craps in front of me, without answering a single question of mine?

You want me to answer more of your questions, then do me at least courtesy to reciprocate by answering mine.

 

[Thief]

Wow...do you stereotype people much?

Sorry, but many Christians (believers) don't believe everything in the bible literally (like the Genesis or Exodus), or as historical records, would disagree with your own personal interpretation.

These non-literal believers - Christians - see that values of the allegories of the creation, flood, the patriarchs, Moses in the messages or meanings within the stories, not in the historicity of those books.

They are like Jesus' parables. His parables come from the moral lessons you can learn from them, not the accurate history of nameless characters.

The values in the Eden story come from its meanings or moral lessons can learn from it, for instances,

1. obey God, or risk punishment for disobeying,
2. or take responsibility for one's own action (Adam blamed Eve, and Eve blamed the talking serpent),
3. the mythological origin of life and death, is a common theme for most religious myths.

There are no evidences to support the 6-day creation, the creation of man from dirt, or the existence of garden of Eden, Adam and Eve, and the talking serpent, so it shouldn't be treated as history.

Similarly, there are no evidences to support Noah and the (global) Flood, Moses and the exodus, and Joshua and conquest of Canaan.

Over the decades, there were lot of hoaxes and misinformation from various creationists and believers. Like the supposed discovery of the Ark, the discovery of skeletal remains of Giants (or nephilim, the supposed offspring of angels or sons of gods or the watchers, in Genesis 6:1:4).

was it you who first said something about irrational?
and you thought you had singled out just one opponent?
when you post to one.....many more are at hand.

and the garden story isn't really a morality tragedy.
I don't read it that way.

it was a test.
The first couple passed.
we ARE the species wanting to know....even if death is pending.

 

[metis]

As for myself, I don't really get into the question as to whether Moses actually existed or not, nor do I take positions on whether religious narratives actually occurred or not. Instead, I treat all religious narratives as allegory, see what they teach in terms of morals and values, and then choose those that seem to be helpful in supplying direction for my life.

 

[outhouse]

How many years have you been studying religion to properly understand what religion means to the adherents?

Non sequitur to the reality of biblical mythology.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Man, you sure crap.

I have answered your question, but you evade mine, by moving the goalposts.

I have been open and frank by answering your question, and I have answer it directly. Whether you are satisfied with my answer or not, is beside the point, because as I said I had answered you directly, without hedging.

Why should I put up with you putting more craps in front of me, without answering a single question of mine?

You want me to answer more of your questions, then do me at least courtesy to reciprocate by answering mine.

Your questions actually are not relevant to truth of what is self evident....the reality of Moses can not be dismissed without evidence.....and you and all the non-believers have none to produce.....

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Non sequitur to the reality of biblical mythology.

Nonsense..religion is not about the physical domain, scholarship, philosophy, science, etc.,...it is a spiritual subjective unfoldment involving dimensions of God unknown to non-believers...the light shines in the darkness but the darkness comprehendeth it not...

 

[gnostic]

....the reality of Moses can not be dismissed without evidence.....and you and all the non-believers have none to produce.....

Right...except that there are no evidences for Moses, which make him mythological figure, not a historical figure.

You can say that Moses was a spiritual figure, as all prophets were, but still don't change the fact that without evidences for Moses or for the Israelites'exodus, that still make Moses a mythological figure.

Your questions actually are not relevant to truth of what is self evident....

No, the questions were not about the existence of Moses or anything else about the bible.

The questions were about the believers themselves, like you and thief, personally.

The questions were about you (or thief) and if it was RATIONAL to believe in the supernatural and superstition of taking animals or four-face angels?

The questions were about people's "irrationality" in the belief of mythological beings and creature that defy reality.

Serpent or donkey that could talk to humans (to Eve and Balaam, respectively) in human language is defying reality.

In the Old Babylonian epic of Etana, that the eagle and snake could talk to each, become friends to each other, until one of them (eagle) betrayed the other, kill and ate the snake's young offspring. The snake crippled the eagle (so that it couldn't fly), but the young King of Kish, Etana saved the eagle and nurse it back to health and strength, and they became friends, and the eagle help Etana with his problem.

There are literally thousands of tales in which different types of animals can talk to each other, as well as talk to man, in virtually human languages appeared in myths, not in reality.

There are birds, like some species of parrots and cockatoos, that can mimic and repeat human words that they can hear, but these birds actually don't understand the words they repeat. That's not real communication, like that with Eden serpent or Balaam's donkey.

And I have asked you is it rational to believe in angels that have human bodies, but have wings or heads of certain animals. The chimera of humans and birds' wings existed in many civilisations and culture, including in Mesopotamia, (pre-Islamic) Persia, Egypt, Greece, India, in which gods possessed wings sprouting behind their backs.

Or the angels possessing human bodies, but with some sorts of animal heads or faces. This is quite common in other cultures and religions where they believe their gods possessing heads of certain animals. What was different in Ezekiel's description of angels is that they possess four faces - that of man, ox, lion and eagle - I would suppose each face would face in different direction.

That hybridisation of human and animal body parts (often wings and heads) are great in fiction and in myths, but not possible in reality. If people actually believe in them being possible in this day and age, I would say it is irrational or high in LSD.

You and thief have argue that I am being irrational for not believing in whatever scriptures you happen to believe in. But the real question is it rational or irrational for you to believe in angel that have 4 wings and 4 faces, as described by Ezekiel?

You tell me if it is rational to believe in these sort of things that defy reality as these scriptures do?

Both you and thief argue that I am being irrational for "not believing", but I think it is the other way around, that believers being irrational because they would believe in anything and everything, just because some superstitious scriptures say so...

Other than them appearing in myths within scriptures, they are certainly not "self-evident".

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Right...except that there are no evidences for Moses, which make him mythological figure, not a historical figure.

You can say that Moses was a spiritual figure, as all prophets were, but still don't change the fact that without evidences for Moses or for the Israelites'exodus, that still make Moses a mythological figure.

No the questions were not about the existence of Moses or anything else about the bible.

The questions were about the believers themselves, like you and thief, personally.

The questions were about you (or thief) and if it was RATIONAL to believe in the supernatural and superstition of taking animals or four-face angels?

The questions were about people's "irrationality" in the belief of mythological beings and creature that defy reality.

Serpent or donkey that could talk to humans (to Eve and Balaam, respectively) in human language is defying reality.

In the Old Babylonian epic of Etana, that the eagle and snake could talk to each, become friends to each other, until one of them (eagle) betrayed the other, kill and ate the snake's young offspring. The snake crippled the eagle (so that it couldn't fly), but the young King of Kish, Etana saved the eagle and nurse it back to health and strength, and they became friends, and the eagle help Etana with his problem.

There are literally thousands of tales in which different types of animals can talk to each other, as well as talk to man, in virtually human languages appeared in myths, not in reality.

There are birds, like some species of parrots and cockatoos, that can mimic and repeat human words that they can hear, but these birds actually don't understand the words they repeat. That's not real communication, like that with Eden serpent or Balaam's donkey.

And I have asked you is it rational to believe in angels that have human bodies, but have wings or heads of certain animals. The chimera of humans and birds' wings existed in many civilisations and culture, including in Mesopotamia, (pre-Islamic) Persia, Egypt, Greece, India, in which gods possessed wings sprouting behind their backs.

Or the angels possessing human bodies, but with some sorts of animal heads or faces. This is quite common in other cultures and religions where they believe their gods possessing heads of certain animals. What was different in Ezekiel's description of angels is that they possess four faces - that of man, ox, lion and eagle - I would suppose each face would face in different direction.

That hybridisation of human and animal body parts (often wings and heads) are great in fiction and in myths, but not possible in reality. If people actually believe in them being possible in this day and age, I would say it is irrational or high in LSD.

You and thief have argue that I am being irrational for not believing in whatever scriptures you happen to believe in. But the real question is it rational or irrational for you to believe in angel that have 4 wings and 4 faces, as described by Ezekiel?

You tell me if it is rational to believe in these sort of things that defy reality as these scriptures do?

you can't say you are not aware of what has been revealed on this thread that archaeologist Prof. Albright declared there is evidence for Moses being a real entity and even more importantly there is the written biblical tradition itself which is based on an earlier oral tradition... What there is no evidence for is proof that Moses did not exist.....shutting your eyes and ears to the evidence I have referred to for a Moses like character to have existed does not change the truth...

No one cares what you believe, you can believe Jesus did not exist, that's fine too, but you can't prove there is no evidence...

 

[outhouse]

No one cares what you believe

How honest is that? I do, and I have credibility on this topic, I lecture this exact topic at a college. I have known him to be honest to a fault.

As well you can bank on his credibility and he is a great human being who holds quite the knowledge on these topics with little to no bias.

I have found none of that with you.

you can't say you are not aware of what has been revealed on this thread that archaeologist Prof. Albright

You have been shown by CREDIBLE sources his work has been overturned, and he holds NO CREDIBILITY. Its why you cling to him.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

How honest is that? I do, and I have credibility on this topic, I lecture this exact topic at a college. I have known him to be honest to a fault.

As well you can bank on his credibility and he is a great human being who holds quite the knowledge on these topics with little to no bias.

I have found none of that with you.

Not tolerated.

You have been shown by CREDIBLE sources his work has been overturned, and he holds NO CREDIBILITY. Its why you cling to him.

How can an atheist have credibility on matters of a spiritual nature...you remain blind as to your true nature...the light shines in the darkness but the darkness comprehendeth it not....

It was a rhetorical question to make a point about obfuscation....not an accusation...

You are evading the challenge....show me the evidence that Moses does not exist...not opinions that refute the opinions that there is evidence that Moses did exist....

 

[outhouse]

How can an atheist have credibility on matters of a spiritual nature...

Spiritual nature has nothing to do with historicity of past events. But I would not stoop to your level of saying theist cannot understand history because its not spiritual.


I have many theist friends who agree with me fully.

you remain blind as to your true nature...

Your so transparently desperate at this point.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Spiritual nature has nothing to do with historicity of past events. But I would not stoop to your level of saying theist cannot understand history because its not spiritual.

I have many theist friends who agree with me fully.

Your so transparently desperate at this point.

So if you admit that history is a completely different subject to spirituality......it is logical to understand why the atheist can get no true understanding from scripture as it is not meant to be a historical narrative... Any theists who go to an atheist for spiritual understanding of the bible are the spiritual blind being led by the more spiritual blind. Likewise those theists who take the bible literally as a historical narrative will never understand the meaning and hence will remain in the dark...the light shines in the darkness but the darkness comprehendeth it not....

You are still evading the challenge....show me the evidence that Moses does not exist...not opinions that refute the opinions that there is evidence that Moses did exist?

 

[Thief]

Spiritual nature has nothing to do with historicity of past events. But I would not stoop to your level of saying theist cannot understand history because its not spiritual.


I have many theist friends who agree with me fully.



Your so transparently desperate at this point.

if spiritual nature has nothing to do with history....
what are you doing with your history in the religious debate section?

trolling?

 

[Thief]

You both are ones to talk about irrationality.

We are not talking about the existence of God...the recent debate have been over the existence of Moses...unless you think Moses is God?

But then again, some irrational Christians believe that Jesus is God, born from a virgin, die and then come back to life. Is that rational?

So is it far more rational to believe in a serpent or a donkey that can talk?

Or angels that have 4 or 6 wings, or 4 faces (or was that 4 heads), one of man, the others of lion, ox and eagle (Ezekiel 1). Is that any way rational?

It sounds to me, the talking animals and 4-face angels demonstrate the authors as being over-imaginative, drunk, high on mushrooms or simply delusional.

stay with the discussion.
Moses existed.....not a matter of proving.

take the scenario on faith and then rationalize.

spiritual events have nothing to do with history.....

yeah right!