God screwed Adam and Eve

[Humanistheart]

How did he screw the rest of us over? That's not part of the original story..

Yes it is, as children born to adam and eve had to live outside the garden as mortals who toiled in the dirt and felt pain.

Please try to keep the discussion within the realms of the story itself and WITHOUT both Christian interpretation as well as modern cultural bias..

In you're last post you completley forgot this thread was about that story, I was the one that had to remind you what this threads about, lol.

Tell me how many books were written at the time Mithras was around, how many books and films were made where Mithras was mentioned or prominently featured, and how many cultures followed this cult.

I'm sure many books were written around that time. The question you may have intended to ask was, how many books were written about him? And the answer is I'm not sure, which highlights my point of gods passing into obscurity. And cult is a half-truth, so I'm going to assume you're even less familair with mithras than I am.

Are you still trying to defend the immoral god of this biblical story? If not, what are we discussing now, and why?

 

[Riverwolf]

Yes it is, as children born to adam and eve had to live outside the garden as mortals who toiled in the dirt and felt pain.

What's wrong with pain? Or farming, for that matter? The Mesopotamians seemed more than happy with it.

In you're last post you completley forgot this thread was about that story, I was the one that had to remind you what this threads about, lol.

You may not realize it, but your use of "lol" is rather reassuring.

In case you haven't noticed, I'm trying to figure out just what Christ has to do with the story, as someone brought him into this. I have not forgotten the OP.

I'm sure many books were written around that time. The question you may have intended to ask was, how many books were written about him? And the answer is I'm not sure, which highlights my point of gods passing into obscurity. And cult is a half-truth, so I'm going to assume you're even less familair with mithras than I am.

I've never heard of Mithras; I did a quick google search.

Are you still trying to defend the immoral god of this biblical story? If not, what are we discussing now, and why?

I'm not really trying to defend the God, as I don't believe the story to be literally true, so there's no need to defend YHWH Elohim, the God of Source J, because I don't believe he literally exists.

I'm trying to defend the story itself and its literary value. (Not really easy, since accusing a story is a concept that's quite foreign to me, which explains why I'm not doing so well. )

 

[Humanistheart]

In case you haven't noticed, I'm trying to figure out just what Christ has to do with the story, as someone brought him into this. I have not forgotten the OP.

Just one post ago you asked me to stick with the story without later christian interpretation and now you're trying to work out how the false christ works into it... do you see the contradiction there? I feel like I'm in a pinball game, we're just bouncing all over now.

 

[Watchmen]

Okay... what does that have to do with Adam and Eve?

It was in response to your (or someone else's) criticism of Passion of the Christ (the movie).

 

[Riverwolf]

Just one post ago you asked me to stick with the story without later christian interpretation and now you're trying to work out how the false christ works into it... do you see the contradiction there? I feel like I'm in a pinball game, we're just bouncing all over now.

I directly request that you leave later Christian interpretation out of it, as it seems to me that's what you're doing.

In post #85, Freelancer mentioned Passion of the Christ, and I asked what that had to do with anything, and hopefully get to the point where I can do the same with him. (Though in hindsight, it may have been better to just do so then and there.) In the same way I was asking you how we suffer because of what Adam and Eve did.

 

[Riverwolf]

It was in response to your (or someone else's) criticism of Passion of the Christ (the movie).

Mine. It's one of those films that's so bad I feel compelled to remind everyone every time it's mentioned. Maybe I should cut back on that.

 

[Watchmen]

Mine. It's one of those films that's so bad I feel compelled to remind everyone every time it's mentioned. Maybe I should cut back on that.

I actually didn't like it either.

 

[Sententia]

Mine. It's one of those films that's so bad I feel compelled to remind everyone every time it's mentioned. Maybe I should cut back on that.

Its the perfect lead in... Most people have seen it. (I have hee hee...) Mel Gibson told his wife that she was going to hell because she didnt believe what he believed. (Funny Clip) But that leads into passion.

A religious horror flick. (Essentially) Horrible Movie. If we're gonna start making movies based on bible stories and go as over the top as Mel did with Passion lets do Adam and Eve the literal Translation. Slap an R rating on there and get it out for the public. I'd love to see the audience squirm as the reality of the story unfolds. (Satan... eating fruit.... ejection... Populating the earth... pains of child birth)... Lets do the story of Lot... Start in the horrible sinful city... the exit... his wife a pillar of salt and end just after the cave scene when they discover the world didnt really end.

Lets do Noah... Lets focus on the fact that all of humanity supposedly died... Babies... Innocent people that had no idea what they did to upset the man that turned the rain valve on full blast. The collecting of all animals by twos... 1 male and 1 female... his fantastic age... And you might as well end at again with the repopulation of the earth and how god got it wrong again... Evil people didnt go away... (Maybe he doesnt get CNN in heaven) Although the special effects... if we go with a 10k old earth... And the theory that the grand canyon was formed following the flood... Ken Hovind? If we go down that I believe the numbers work out to the the grand canyon being formed faster then the speed of sound... That should be cool to film.

In short... Passion was a horrible idea and a horrible movie. (IMHO anyways)

 

[Enoch07]

But it wasn't there fault. 1) The serpent told them to eat the fruit, they wouldn't have known better because 2) GOD MADE THEM THAT WAY!!! And 3) They didn't know it was wrong in the first place because 4) GOD MADE THEM THAT WAY!!!

It was their fault. God told them not to partake of it or they would die. If that is not a clear warning than nothing is. And yet they partook of it anyways. So they got banished from Eden. So simple a 3 year old can understand it.

 

[nonbeliever_92]

they didn't know the impact of the consequences though becuase god made them that way. God told them not to eat from the tree or else they would die, yes, but he didn't and couldn't explain to them that it was wrong, becuase they had no concept of good and evil. (Why did the snake have a concept of good and evil, it was never said that the serpent was the satan...)

 

[Riverwolf]

they didn't know the impact of the consequences though becuase god made them that way. God told them not to eat from the tree or else they would die, yes, but he didn't and couldn't explain to them that it was wrong, becuase they had no concept of good and evil.

Is not God telling them not enough for them not to do it?

Young children do not have the concept of good and bad, either, yet they still listen to their parents. Adam and Eve are very much like children.

(Why did the snake have a concept of good and evil, it was never said that the serpent was the satan...)

Who said the serpent did? He's described as the "craftiest" of animals, so he probably wanted to play a small trick.

And you're right: the serpent is NOT Satan, as some claim. (At least within the boundaries of this story alone.)

 

[Enoch07]

they didn't know the impact of the consequences though becuase god made them that way. God told them not to eat from the tree or else they would die, yes, but he didn't and couldn't explain to them that it was wrong, becuase they had no concept of good and evil. (Why did the snake have a concept of good and evil, it was never said that the serpent was the satan...)

Right and wrong is not really the issue here. God specifically warned them to not partake of that tree or they would die. But they allowed themselves to be influenced by the conniving serpent.

If your parent told you to not put your hand in fire because it would burn you. Would it be wrong of you if a friend dared you to put your hand in the fire and burn yourself? No. The issue is you listened to someone else, and disobeyed your parents that is why they get mad at you for burning yourself. Not because of the actual burning in itself.

That is the main concern here. They disobeyed God's direct order, that is what made this "wrong". And thus they lost paradise because of this action.

 

[Hitchey]

It was a set-up from the beginning; God knew Adam would eat the apple yet he still put the tree in the garden.

That is what I always thought, and I believed I was quite clever for figuring int out. Then I read in one of the Gnostic Gospels that those old Gnostics had realized it too. They concluded (at least the ones who wrote that particular Gospel) that there must be two gods: one good one that created the Universe and a more dubious deity who created the Earth and set-up Adam and Eve in the Garden (I'm not making this up -- just in case you think I am tickling your funny bone).

 

[Hitchey]

Is not God telling them not enough for them not to do it?

Young children do not have the concept of good and bad, either, yet they still listen to their parents. Adam and Eve are very much like children.

My experience with many public school children (JK to grade 8) is that they frequently do what they are told not to. In the case of the younger ones it really may be that they just don't quite get it. As they get older I suspect it is more a matter of their being crafty.

If Adam and Eve truly were child-like then I would expect them to behave as children. Children are not perfect and they do not always do as they are told. If you truly love your children you wouldn't deliberately put something you knew to be dangerous at the centre of the play ground accompanied by a simple warning not to touch it. How often do we hear of young children who have drowned in the family's backyard in-ground pool? Were they not told of the danger? No responsible parent puts something dangerous within reach of their chilren and then leaves them to play unatended.

The story for me reads like a myth. Like Pandora's Box it explains the presence of pain and suffering in the world and like Pandora it was again a female who make the fatal mistake.

Who said the serpent did? He's described as the "craftiest" of animals, so he probably wanted to play a small trick.

There's the old myth creeping back into the story. Talking animals are a dead give-away (no disrespect intended).

 

[Riverwolf]

My experience with many public school children (JK to grade 8) is that they frequently do what they are told not to. In the case of the younger ones it really may be that they just don't quite get it. As they get older I suspect it is more a matter of their being crafty.

I always thought of Adam and Eve as being much younger than that, before they learn to disobey. My experience with the age-group you've referenced has told me the same thing. (By the way, what's JK in this instance mean?)

If Adam and Eve truly were child-like then I would expect them to behave as children. Children are not perfect and they do not always do as they are told. If you truly love your children you wouldn't deliberately put something you knew to be dangerous at the centre of the play ground accompanied by a simple warning not to touch it.

STOP! YHWH Elohim NEVER said anything about not touching it.

How often do we hear of young children who have drowned in the family's backyard in-ground pool? Were they not told of the danger? No responsible parent puts something dangerous within reach of their chilren and then leaves them to play unatended.

I will admit I'd never thought of it like that.

The story for me reads like a myth. Like Pandora's Box it explains the presence of pain and suffering in the world and like Pandora it was again a female who make the fatal mistake.

Certainly there are many parallels in the Biblical myths to the myths of other cultures, some more obvious than others.

There's the old myth creeping back into the story. Talking animals are a dead give-away (no disrespect intended).

None taken, as this is how I read the story, too. (I'm not Christian, by the way.)

 

[blackout]

Is not God telling them not enough for them not to do it?

Young children do not have the concept of good and bad, either, yet they still listen to their parents. Adam and Eve are very much like children.

Young children quite often do NOT listen to their parents,
precicely because they do not understand.
(which is why you have to watch them constantly)

And when your young children do not listen,
do you kick them out of the house?

We grow in understanding over time.

 

[Riverwolf]

Young children quite often do NOT listen to their parents,
precicely because they do not understand.
(which is why you have to watch them constantly)

And when your young children do not listen,
do you kick them out of the house?

We grow in understanding over time.

And in my opinion, that's exactly what happened: Adam and Eve grew up, leaving the garden of Childhood forever and entering the harsh and oft unforgiving real world.

 

[Watchmen]

And in my opinion, that's exactly what happened: Adam and Eve grew up, leaving the garden of Childhood forever and entering the harsh and oft unforgiving real world.

It was all part of God's plan, except his plan includes forgiveness - it doesn't have to be an unforgiving world.

 

[Hitchey]

I always thought of Adam and Eve as being much younger than that, before they learn to disobey. My experience with the age-group you've referenced has told me the same thing. (By the way, what's JK in this instance mean?)

JK - Junior Kindergarten.

None taken, as this is how I read the story, too. (I'm not Christian, by the way.)

LOL! I misunderstood. Thanks for the correction.

 

[Riverwolf]

JK - Junior Kindergarten.

Huh. Didn't know there was a Junior Kindergarten.

LOL! I misunderstood. Thanks for the correction.

No problem. ^_^