God screwed Adam and Eve

[dorsk188]

I guess you don't get my POV. God knew it would eventually happen. And, knowing this, he provided a Savior. He also knew it was necessary so that his children would become more like him.

No, I understand it. It's no different than an exterminator mailing a package of roaches to a house, and writing "DO NOT OPEN" on the box. If the homeowner opens the box, letting all the roaches out, don't worry. The exterminator has a plan to get rid of them.

Confidence men depend on people believing their side of the story, even when it's a little sketchy. Your version of God is a conman, selling a solution to the problems he causes.

 

[AlsoAnima]

In Genisis god tells Adam and Eve not to eat from the Treee of Knowledge of good and evil. He then gets mad when they do and kicks them out of the garden,why?

1) How were they suppose to know that eating from the tree would get them kicked out? how were they suppose to know that it was wrong to?

2) If god opened up the possibility of "free will" with this act, why didn't he just make humans like that from the beginning?

Someone told me oncer that it wasn't "wrong" for them to eat the fruit, but because they didn't listen to god, they were kicked out. If it wasn't wrong, why were they kicked out?

1. They were told not to eat the fruit. But, not the consequence.
2. Free will was already in place here. Hence their choice to disobey Deity.

I don't really understand your questions. It seems like a perfectly normal parent behavior.

"In Genisis god tells Adam and Eve not to eat from the Treee of Knowledge of good and evil. He then gets mad when they do and kicks them out of the garden"

Parent: Warning
Child: Disobey
Parent: Punishment

 

[Watchmen]

No, I understand it. It's no different than an exterminator mailing a package of roaches to a house, and writing "DO NOT OPEN" on the box. If the homeowner opens the box, letting all the roaches out, don't worry. The exterminator has a plan to get rid of them.

Confidence men depend on people believing their side of the story, even when it's a little sketchy. Your version of God is a conman, selling a solution to the problems he causes.

No. My version of God is a loving Father who provided a way for us to become like Him.

 

[Riverwolf]

Let's make a bet, Riverwolf. I'll give you $1,000,000 US if you never give birth. If you do give birth, you give me $1 million. Your profile says you're male, so that's a pretty good bet for you, right?

I'll go ahead and explain why it's a sucker's bet for you to make. You can never prove to me that you will never give birth, because as long as you're alive and science is advancing, it's possible you may in the future. But if, 1,000 years in the future, we're still both alive and you decide you want to have a kid, and science will let you do that, then I win.

You can never win. Heads: I win, tails: we flip again. On the face of it, the Garden of Eden was exactly the same. Eat the fruit, or decide tomorrow.

When did this turn into a game?

Children all grow up eventually. (I hope.)

 

[OmarKhayyam]

God punished them for not acknowledging the wrong they had done AFTER they had eaten of the fruit and learned what was good and bad, and instead trying to place the blame elsewhere.

What they basically did was the equivalent of going somewhere and breaking the rules unknowingly, and then instead of apologizing, try to say that it was because of yadda yadda yadda which YOU allowed. (Key word: instead.)

No that is NOT the reading. The "sin" was disobedience. They were told what not to do. No sense of right and wrong was needed. Merely the ability to follow instructions. They did not.

Worse at least in Eve's case she distrusted God. Rather than blindly follow she decided for HERSELF that what God had said might not be true. And we see this same thing today. Religion teaches blind unquestionling obedience. Do not question. Do not ask. Do not ponder. Just believe and obey. Nothing else is needed. Nor wanted.

 

[Riverwolf]

No that is NOT the reading. The "sin" was disobedience. They were told what not to do. No sense of right and wrong was needed. Merely the ability to follow instructions. They did not.

Which is what children do and are taught to do before they know how to think for themselves. Like I keep saying, Adam and Eve were children.

Worse at least in Eve's case she distrusted God. Rather than blindly follow she decided for HERSELF that what God had said might not be true. And we see this same thing today. Religion teaches blind unquestionling obedience. Do not question. Do not ask. Do not ponder. Just believe and obey. Nothing else is needed. Nor wanted.

That's an interesting way of looking at it. Funny thing is, it's not always true. Sometimes, it certainly is, and I'm sorry that your experience has been with such tyrannical priests.

I will not say they aren't "Christians;" they are, as they follow Christ (Sort of, anyway.) But they know nothing of spirituality or the Spiritual Path. All they know is their own arrogance.

Besides, I think, ponder, question, and do not obey blindly. I consider the gods as Teachers, not Slave Masters. I am their student, just as I'm the student of my current JC teachers.

No real Teacher is a tyrant; such a person is simply a young soul out for attention, like the child who whines every time he doesn't get exactly what he wants.

Sorry your view on religion was skewered by "holier than thou art" imperialists. I just hope you don't believe that ALL religions and theists are like that. In fact, most of them aren't.

After all, since when have leaders accurately represented their followers?

EDIT: Oh, yeah. If you want to properly debate this topic, it might be a good idea to learn a bit about the story beyond the text itself. May I suggest reading "The Five Books of Moses" by Robert Alter? His commentaries are very illuminating. (Not to mention his translation is BEAUTIFUL.)

 

[Humanistheart]

Sin is doing something against God's wishes or refusing to do something God wants you to do..

So you can see why sin is not an issue of right or wrong or ethics, it's merely one being forcing what he likes on others. Sin is not wrong, well for humans to do, sin is wrong in the sence that it's horribly unethical for one being to force his own desires on billions of others. If it weren't, hitler would be praised as a saint right now.

When we sin, we separate ourselves from God because no unclean thing may be in His presence..

Then perhaps this god needs to get over himself. Someone does something I don't like so they can't be near me. That's pretty childish.

A Savior was provided for us so that we might be cleansed from sin. That is, the Savior takes the punishment so we don't have to. It is a merciful act - hence, Justice and Mercy are perfectly fulfilled..

And what about one man dieing for everyone else qualifies as justice in your mind? If your children all do something wrong do you punish the oldest only and say justice has been done? If so, that's really messed up.

You're starting to sound like a brocken record, maybe you can actually think about the concepts before you right about them. One man dies and somehow sin disapears for everyone. What part of that makes sence to you?

The resurrection is necessary so that we can have the same perfect body as God .

You're mindlessly quoting your religion, but what part of that makes sence to you? Why on earth would it be neccessary? Can you answer a simple question?

There's nothing confusing about this. I suspect you only make it so because you're a non-believer. Your focus on fruit is evidence of this - you focus on a mythological symbol rather than what the overall myth teaches.

Now your claiming the fruits merely a symbol, something you had yet to do on this thread. It seems your trying to change the goal post. Now the fruits not even real, lol.

I'll simply accept that you have no way to explain or justify your interpretation or this god's unethical acts. The fact remains, there's no way to read the genesis account and come away with the idea that this god is by any means good, or has any idea what he's doing.

 

[Humanistheart]

No. My version of God is a loving Father who provided a way for us to become like Him.

Through blood shed. How very loving.

 

[Hitchey]

"In Genisis god tells Adam and Eve not to eat from the Treee of Knowledge of good and evil. He then gets mad when they do and kicks them out of the garden"

Parent: Warning
Child: Disobey
Parent: Punishment

The problem is that until they ate the fruit they remained child-like. A loving parent does not put a dangerous object in the middle of the play ground, with or without a warning not to touch it. If we assume God is wise and all knowing He could have placed the Tree on the other side of the world, or better yet, left it in Heaven where they could never reach it. But the story needs plot development and so the magical tree was placed at the centre of the garden and provided with fruit that was tempting to eat. They ate and were then castigated.

They were kicked from Eden, by the way, not as punishment but because God was afraid they might eat from the other magical tree placed in the garden.

'The man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil; what if he now reaches out his hand and takes fruit from the tree of life also, eats it and lives for ever?' (Genesis 3:22)

So God removed them from Eden to keep them away from the other tree. This of course means that Adam and Eve never did have immortality. They were going to die anyway. This comment from God proves that. The warning that they would die if they ate from the trees was meant to frighten them from eating the fruit and thus becoming gods.

I wonder what happened to the Tree of Life? Is it still there or did God remove it to prevent us from stretching out our hand and becoming gods?

 

[Hitchey]

Actually, from the LDS perspective, God gave them conflicting commandments so that the Fall could happen and progression begin. It was completely intentional on God's part.

So The Fall was meant to happen? God punished Adam and Eve for doing what He knew they were going to do. He set them up to fail. Makes God sound rather sadistic doesn't it? All the suffering humanity has experienced is part of his plan? Is Satan in on this as well? Doesn't sound like the machinations of a benign and loving god to me.

Yes - I believe most LDS believe this as well. My personal opinion is either (1) the story is a myth meant to teach Truth and shouldn't be taken literally so it doesn't really matter what they were eating; or (2) the Garden was in a "bubble" of sorts, cut off from the rest of the earth and in this "bubble" there was sufficient vegitation to support animal-life OR animals in the "bubble" did not procreate.

Are you saying the story of Adam and Eve may be a myth? That is my postion of course. I think it raises far more theological and scientific problems than it solves. It is not possible for the animals of the world (and humans) to be vegitarian. In short order there would be no plants left. We'd eat them all (us and the animals). Placing Eden in a bubble is altering the story to correct problems the plot raises -- problems that never occurred to the ancients whose myth this story belongs to.

 

[Watchmen]

So you can see why sin is not an issue of right or wrong or ethics, it's merely one being forcing what he likes on others. Sin is not wrong, well for humans to do, sin is wrong in the sence that it's horribly unethical for one being to force his own desires on billions of others. If it weren't, hitler would be praised as a saint right now.



Then perhaps this god needs to get over himself. Someone does something I don't like so they can't be near me. That's pretty childish.



And what about one man dieing for everyone else qualifies as justice in your mind? If your children all do something wrong do you punish the oldest only and say justice has been done? If so, that's really messed up.

You're starting to sound like a brocken record, maybe you can actually think about the concepts before you right about them. One man dies and somehow sin disapears for everyone. What part of that makes sence to you?



You're mindlessly quoting your religion, but what part of that makes sence to you? Why on earth would it be neccessary? Can you answer a simple question?




Now your claiming the fruits merely a symbol, something you had yet to do on this thread. It seems your trying to change the goal post. Now the fruits not even real, lol.

I'll simply accept that you have no way to explain or justify your interpretation or this god's unethical acts. The fact remains, there's no way to read the genesis account and come away with the idea that this god is by any means good, or has any idea what he's doing.

I'm willing to answer your questions if you cut the attitude. What will it be?

 

[Watchmen]

So The Fall was meant to happen? God punished Adam and Eve for doing what He knew they were going to do. He set them up to fail. Makes God sound rather sadistic doesn't it? All the suffering humanity has experienced is part of his plan? Is Satan in on this as well? Doesn't sound like the machinations of a benign and loving god to me.

God knew the Fall would happen and that it was necessary for us to become more like him. What can be better than becoming like God? Nothing sadistic about that.

Are you saying the story of Adam and Eve may be a myth? That is my postion of course. I think it raises far more theological and scientific problems than it solves. It is not possible for the animals of the world (and humans) to be vegitarian. In short order there would be no plants left. We'd eat them all (us and the animals). Placing Eden in a bubble is altering the story to correct problems the plot raises -- problems that never occurred to the ancients whose myth this story belongs to.

My definition of myth is "a story that teaches a particular culture a truth about itself." Whether the myth is literally true or not is irrelevant to the truths it teaches.

Placing Eden in a bubble is not altering anything. Genesis 1:8 - "And the Lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden..." Sound to me like the Garden was a separate, specific place. It wasn't the world in general.

Also, the idea that there won't be enough plantlife is irrelevent if one believes in the creation, flood, resurrection, and so on.

I'd also add that theology and science are two separate things - there's no need for conflict.

 

[Watchmen]

To all those criticizing my beliefs, you're so caught up on proving yourself right to make yourself feel good that you're ignoring the big picture. You focus on punishments and consequences and continue to reject the concept that we can become like God. Is some heartache and pain and suffering really a big deal when we have that opportunity and promise?

 

[dorsk188]

When did this turn into a game?

You're dodging my point. Either Adam had a choice, or he did not. You are claiming that Adam had a choice. That he had the capacity to resist temptation for eternity.

But he didn't. God set up the rules in a way that Adam eventually would disobey him. Adam could never free himself.

Eat the fruit, or decide tomorrow. Eat the fruit, or decide tomorrow.

Watchmen understands this. He has rationalized that it was part of God's plan (an interpretation with its own problems), but you seem to insist that God truly intended that Adam stay in his Garden for eternity, always avoiding a certain fruit because God told him so. It's a more literal interpretation (and the one closest to the author's intent, I'm sure).

But it still presents Adam with no statistical way to avoid disobedience. In a year. Or ten thousand. Or a trillion. Or 10 to the power of a trillion. Adam could not die, and God would never say to him: "Good job, you've obeyed me." Because as long as he was in that garden, he still might take a bite of that fruit. And eternity means "as long as it takes".

Did you know that matter continually teleports around, completely at random? It's very unlikely, but an atom can instantly be somewhere else, even far distances, for no reason. It's this process that allows matter in black holes to leave the event horizon, and the black holes evaporate. In a trillion years, a single fruit may instantly transport three feet to the left. Unlikely, but possible. But when infinity is involved, then Adam could never have escaped the fruit reappearing in his mouth while he slept.

If you take this story literally, which is a stupid thing to do, then Adam could not escape. But even as a metaphor, it's a disaster. God locked Adam in a room with a certain forbidden thing, and punished him for eventually getting around to doing it. That's the work of a maniac. And it's no more instructive than the story of Pandora's Box or any other "why is there suffering in the world?" myths.

No. My version of God is a loving Father who provided a way for us to become like Him.

A father who locks you in a room, sets arbitrary boundarys, punishes you for crossing them, and promises you can do the same to your kids when you grow up.

That's pathetic. It truly is.

 

[OmarKhayyam]

I'm willing to answer your questions if you cut the douche-bag attitude. What will it be?

Why is his attitude a factor in your answer? You either have an answer or you don't. His attitude is irrelevant.

 

[blackout]

......................
If you take this story literally, which is a stupid thing to do, then Adam could not escape. But even as a metaphor, it's a disaster. God locked Adam in a room with a certain forbidden thing, and punished him for eventually getting around to doing it. That's the work of a maniac. And it's no more instructive than the story of Pandora's Box or any other "why is there suffering in the world?" myths.


A father who locks you in a room, sets arbitrary boundarys, punishes you for crossing them, and promises you can do the same to your kids when you grow up.

That's pathetic. It truly is.

Your train of thought makes total sense to me,
right up until the metaphor part at the end.
If the story is to be read as a metaphor,
then God is not God, but a metaphor for something else.
The garden is a metaphor, the serpent, the trees...

Perhaps it is a lame metaphor,
but I really don't know
because I have not yet figured out what "God" stands for in the story.

 

[Watchmen]

A father who locks you in a room, sets arbitrary boundarys, punishes you for crossing them, and promises you can do the same to your kids when you grow up.

That's pathetic. It truly is.

A father who gave us life and progression and the opportunity to become like Him - perfect happiness...perfect knowledge...an eternity with loved ones.

That's pathetic? I don't think so.

 

[Watchmen]

Why is his attitude a factor in your answer? You either have an answer or you don't. His attitude is irrelevant.

I have an answer but, at this point, I'm only willing to share it with those who engage in a respectful dialogue.

 

[OmarKhayyam]

I have an answer but, at this point, I'm only willing to share it with those who engage in a respectful dialogue.

How . . . noble of you.

If you only want to talk to others who share your delusion WHY are you on the debate board?

 

[dorsk188]

A father who gave us life and progression and the opportunity to become like Him - perfect happiness...perfect knowledge...an eternity with loved ones.

Why would you trust the promises of someone who will manipulate you as part of his plan? Because he said so?
Why would you even believe that you know he's promised it? Because elders and "prophets" have said so?
Why would you believe any of it is true at all? That there is a creator, that he cares about you, that he has a plan? Because your books said so?

Every single thing that you've said in this thread has been some wild assertion, without a shred of evidence. You have the internet, which gives you a vast library of human stupidity to compare to your particular brand. But you're content to believe it. Because you're promised a great reward. Because others believe it, too.

I meant it when I compared your religion to a confidence game. It's no different than an e-mail from a Nigerian prince. It sounds great, doesn't it? But it's not real. It's a fraud. It's a scam. Some people are in on it, but most of them are just as clueless as you are. And I say that without derision, because many smart people are completely blinded by their desire to believe in something bigger than themselves.

All people want to be "gods", in some form or another. All people want to believe that everything is part of a plan. All people want to believe that there is some benevolent hand in control of it all. But there are no gods, and there never have been.

Just wanting something doesn't make it so. Just because your ancestors believed something doesn't make it so.

It's only so because it's so.