God talking

[BilliardsBall]

I dont have issues with The Church nor do I baptist, epis, pentecostal, whatever. No bad experiences. Christians seem more divided by their own body than non-christians are. Whats that all about?


My point above point. Does christ bless you for putting down other denominations? So, not attractive.

The bible brought me to the Church. I was a convert and never indoctrinated.

You're talking to the WRONG person if you have hang ups with your own people. Human beings.

So, that means, *cough* I wasnt a real christian based on demination rather than faith in christ??

Sounds like a double standard. I thought you dont need works to be saved?? But you gotta have the right denomination????



Baptism is what saves in the RCC. Communion is worshiping in the body of christ with christ as the spirit of the body.

But because they are catholic, you accuse them anyway. ONE body not pick or chose. Insult one you insult them all.

Actual people.

Dont know why you (all) have hang ups over the church. Id never joined christianity if I were on RF first. So much hate.

It's not "putting down a denomination," rather, the Bible says, "contend for the faith". That's what we're contending, whether faith alone saves. All the arguments I have for the RCC or any other group IS meaningless, apart from whether I save me or Jesus saves me. You seem to say that you and I have to work to get to Heaven, well, the RCC disagrees with that, and I disagree with you and with them. It's not "putting you down" to urge you to allow Christ to save you, because I believe only Christ can save IMHO.

Thanks for listening to me.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Thanks for listening to me

You're welcome

Thank you for your note, but grace, in the Bible God's unmerited favor, comes from Jesus being beaten to a pulp by man before God's wrath was poured upon Him to expiate our sin. There are hundreds of verses in both testaments that the Messiah did it all, and we can add nothing to our salvation.

Grace, that unmerited favor, doesnt come just because. Thousands of former christians would still be christians since god only baptize once. They can go back and forth and still get away out.

In thr OT, abram didnt sit around to get gods grace. He followed his gods command. The apostles just didnt sit around and talk to christ. Christ said action and faith go hand jn hand (faith without works is dead, no faith means no works.)

People did things for christ. Salvation came through baptism but without the christian role in his salvation, he's just really using god (imo). Its like watching teens get food and allowance from their mother; but, because she is their mother, they feel they owe nothing in return. Its a beautiful thing to work with their mother.

They are not superseding the mother's gift and role. They are acting in relationship with the mother. Works are "thank yous".

"Thank you god for giving me X. I will do this for you because I know within your grace, comes my obedience to my savior."

I see people cry to jesus because they feel they cant thank him enough.

Jesus passion wasnt just for those who believed. Those you do for my body, you do for me (christ). When the body comes together, I (christ) am present. Not to one individual but two or more. They dont sit around and watch t.v.

Jesus saves because you get grace for your obedience and faith in christ.

These arent isolated scriptures. There are thousands of verses and even books that talk about works (doing for god) and faith (trusting what they do will let gods promise be fulfulled). Its not a couch-potato faith.

I'm for Christians "doing right" as you wrote, however, only perfect people can live in a utopia. We aren't saved by being better, but by becoming morally perfect, which requires supernatural power when we meet Jesus in person, not human effort.

I can see that until the last part. What is doing right? If there is no works, you do nothing for gods grace and promise. You expect to get it just because. Human effort for christ is obedience. You are putting your effort because you trust god will save you (his people as a mass).

Effort comes with christ (works and faith), in, and through him. Works is not seperare from christ. That is how god works through you/ thats how you are saved. What you Do for christ, you do for his father.

It goes together. No couch-potato faith made that up. Sounds catchy.

It is not "all throughout scripture that obedience leads to salvation," rather, the NT says over 150 times, some version of "trust Jesus only for salvation, only Jesus may be trusted for salvation." I will not be in Heaven telling God, "Look at me! I did it!" but will be in Heaven saying, "Thank YOU for dying a horrible death on the cross, though you were innocent, to save me."

What is trust?

How do you show it?

These are not isolated scriptures. They work as a unit. You cant be saved if you work without god being that work.

What action/work do christians (i.e. RC Catholics) do for god that is not of god but for themselves? And how does their action through god (aa god through them) ivalidate their salvation?​

All christians. No denominational division between who You believe follows christ. No one is god.

I also understand what you are saying as far as "it looks like lazy people could get into Heaven that way", however, Jesus changes people, particularly after salvation. However, the parable of the workers is about you and me, complaining that "someone got the full pay last minute for no work," meanin

Jesus changes you when you obey him in gratitude. Jesus always did some type of works to show that faith doesnt exist without works. Heal the sick doesnt mean pray that he will be well. Though, some feel god can save only through prayer. Read about that somewhere.

You are basically salvation in action. Basically, you are christ (salvation itself because christ works through you. Um. Right?)

What christ did for you, you Do for others.

Salvation is an act not faith.

Faith is trust in god; trust in god is shown why what you do.

Act is saying: "because I do X, I trust you, god, will continue to give me grace. But I know if I dont do X, you will judge me by my deeds. So whatever I Do for others I do for you"

That is salvation

The action.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

It's not "putting down a denomination," rather, the Bible says, "contend for the faith". That's what we're contending, whether faith alone saves. All the arguments I have for the RCC or any other group IS meaningless, apart from whether I save me or Jesus saves me. You seem to say that you and I have to work to get to Heaven, well, the RCC disagrees with that, and I disagree with you and with them. It's not "putting you down" to urge you to allow Christ to save you, because I believe only Christ can save IMHO.

Thanks for listening to me.

One example of putting down faith is calling people a cult.

You are depreciating a catholic's relationship with god.

You have to work (do something for god) to be saved. Just faith just doesnt cut it.

If thats the case, jesus could just tell his father "cure lazereth" without his works to express his faith.

He wouldnt need to physically die on the cross.

aith for his father was an action. Always has been. If its just faith, he could just believe in it instead.

As for heaven, if salvation promises you heaven, yes, you cant be a couch potato christian.

What works are you talking about apart from christ????

-

YOU are judging another persons salvation because of denomination not their individual faith

 

[Muffled]

What do you mean? Something talked to you like an outside voice reflected as thoughts?

For example, I'm sitting next to my window looking out at a beautiful day. I have my aunts ashes around my neck (urn jewelry) and an small urn in the other room. As I think about her, I hear this voice not coming from me saying something she'd normally say but I wouldnt. She has a sense of humor. I keep her updated (she isnt omnipresent) on things. Regular convo. Real life rather than analogy.

The "voice" came from outside my head and reflected itself as thoughts with her tone. Psychologically, its a part of the grieving process that, depending on how close one is, depends on the "realness" of the voices. The close relationship heightens it.

Same as god. The closer you get to god, the more you can "hear his voice" inside you coming as your thoughts.

Unless you can describe the nature of the voice coming outside of you, the brain does a lot of things for mental survival. Can you explain the nature of this voice apart from your thoughts and connection with how you personally see god?

Does the outside voice tell you that its/hes a creator?

Is the nature of god only a reflection of outside thoughts, what you internalize from the bible, an person talking to you?

If all three, can you explain it individually?

I believe you think that the voice is a projection of my own mind but that is not the case. I know my own mind and when I am projecting other voices. In my first instance of hearing from God my mind was entirely in listening mode.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I believe you think that the voice is a projection of my own mind but that is not the case. I know my own mind and when I am projecting other voices. In my first instance of hearing from God my mind was entirely in listening mode.

Thats the thing about the brain. If we knew everything about the brain, we wouldnt need specialists. When someone has an delusion, they think X is real when it is not. Knowing the mind is understanding the nature of thought and brain outside of our perspective of the world and our interpretations.

So, if we heard from god, there shouldnt be any characteristic you want and/or have that reflects humanity. There should be foriegn traits that cant be "hidden" nor something you cant understand. Thats cheating.

When you say listening mode, does god have his own "tone" of voice? Since he speaks outside of you, can you share a unique trait thats not discribed by any scripture nor anything you know and experience as a human?

It cant be an X factor for god. That leaves room for any definition of god. If its real, it, it must be concrete.

Also, thats what the mind does, project. I was reading earlier about how we listen. Our listening (not hearing) works like this: 1. Sounds go in ear 2. Changes to electrical impulses 3. The brain interpets those impulses to language and expresses what it interprets.

If there is a voice outside you, you must hear a sound. That sound should turn into electric impulses then lets you create meaning to express what you hear.

If its a "heart" conversation, the language is already there just you are making a new pattern (synonyms) of whats already inside you. Recycled knowledge.

Thats where preconcieved information comes from and its confirmed by upbringing, scripture, an synchronicitic experiences.

Expression is the projection of our thoughts into actions and speech. Artist express this all the time. Im sure those who believe in god, instead of hearing an outside voice, god expresses himself through art.

In both cases, its the brain and mind. Unless there is a trait about god he told you (no X) no one else has heard of -and- its not personal to yourself (not subjective), it needs to be concrete so anyone that everyone can hear regardless their religion or lack thereof.

It cant be a mystery. Thats subjective. Math isnt set to a specific group of people nor is pain nor thinking. God is. Can you explain gods voice objectively if you heard him outside your minds projection?

 

[BilliardsBall]

You're welcome



Grace, that unmerited favor, doesnt come just because. Thousands of former christians would still be christians since god only baptize once. They can go back and forth and still get away out.

In thr OT, abram didnt sit around to get gods grace. He followed his gods command. The apostles just didnt sit around and talk to christ. Christ said action and faith go hand jn hand (faith without works is dead, no faith means no works.)

People did things for christ. Salvation came through baptism but without the christian role in his salvation, he's just really using god (imo). Its like watching teens get food and allowance from their mother; but, because she is their mother, they feel they owe nothing in return. Its a beautiful thing to work with their mother.

They are not superseding the mother's gift and role. They are acting in relationship with the mother. Works are "thank yous".

"Thank you god for giving me X. I will do this for you because I know within your grace, comes my obedience to my savior."

I see people cry to jesus because they feel they cant thank him enough.

Jesus passion wasnt just for those who believed. Those you do for my body, you do for me (christ). When the body comes together, I (christ) am present. Not to one individual but two or more. They dont sit around and watch t.v.

Jesus saves because you get grace for your obedience and faith in christ.

These arent isolated scriptures. There are thousands of verses and even books that talk about works (doing for god) and faith (trusting what they do will let gods promise be fulfulled). Its not a couch-potato faith.



I can see that until the last part. What is doing right? If there is no works, you do nothing for gods grace and promise. You expect to get it just because. Human effort for christ is obedience. You are putting your effort because you trust god will save you (his people as a mass).

Effort comes with christ (works and faith), in, and through him. Works is not seperare from christ. That is how god works through you/ thats how you are saved. What you Do for christ, you do for his father.

It goes together. No couch-potato faith made that up. Sounds catchy.



What is trust?

How do you show it?

These are not isolated scriptures. They work as a unit. You cant be saved if you work without god being that work.

What action/work do christians (i.e. RC Catholics) do for god that is not of god but for themselves? And how does their action through god (aa god through them) ivalidate their salvation?​

All christians. No denominational division between who You believe follows christ. No one is god.



Jesus changes you when you obey him in gratitude. Jesus always did some type of works to show that faith doesnt exist without works. Heal the sick doesnt mean pray that he will be well. Though, some feel god can save only through prayer. Read about that somewhere.

You are basically salvation in action. Basically, you are christ (salvation itself because christ works through you. Um. Right?)

What christ did for you, you Do for others.

Salvation is an act not faith.

Faith is trust in god; trust in god is shown why what you do.

Act is saying: "because I do X, I trust you, god, will continue to give me grace. But I know if I dont do X, you will judge me by my deeds. So whatever I Do for others I do for you"

That is salvation

The action.

Thank you for your thoughtful, detailed comments.

Trusting in Christ, as you asked, is a transference from trusting oneself for moral perfection/salvation/ability to enter Heaven, to trusting Jesus instead. Salvation starts where a person both recognizes that are a sinner who needs a Savior and then they move on to trust that Savior.

If what you wrote is accurate, there may be Bible contradictions, since over 150 NT verses say some variant of "trusting Jesus is all that is needed for salvation." For example, John 3:16, "Whoever trusts, will never perish, but has eternal life." Jesus would be lying in John 3:16 if I trust Him then after, lose my salvation. I was trusting Him for temporary eternal life, which is itself a contradiction in terms.

You explored how trust could be interpreted as actions/demonstration. I think God knows people's hearts as well as their actions, that is, He knows if someone has sincerely trusted or vainly trusted, a subject the Bible explores.

Another question is why Jesus's cross isn't enough, why I need to do something to earn something that is impossible to earn.

I will not boast in Heaven about my good works, but I will say I was motivated to work because I was given a wondrous gift.

Speaking of this gift, besides 150 verses on trusting Christ, how do you reconcile the verses that say "the free gift of God is salvation through Jesus Christ"? It's not free if I have to do anything. The Bible says in hundreds of verses, "through Jesus" and never "free gift through my working". Further, you have clear verses like those in Romans 4 where it plainly says, "People with ZERO works may trust in God to have all their sin forgiven."

Thanks for listening to my opinion on these matters.

 

[BilliardsBall]

One example of putting down faith is calling people a cult.

You are depreciating a catholic's relationship with god.

You have to work (do something for god) to be saved. Just faith just doesnt cut it.

If thats the case, jesus could just tell his father "cure lazereth" without his works to express his faith.

He wouldnt need to physically die on the cross.

aith for his father was an action. Always has been. If its just faith, he could just believe in it instead.

As for heaven, if salvation promises you heaven, yes, you cant be a couch potato christian.

What works are you talking about apart from christ????

-

YOU are judging another persons salvation because of denomination not their individual faith

I know what you mean. I try to never judge a person's salvation because of their denomination, nor have I on this thread told anyone "You're not saved!"

I DO, however, judge the RCC for teaching, officially, these things:

1. Salvation is not by trust alone
2. Anyone who believes this cannot be a Roman Catholic
3. Anyone not a Roman Catholic is not in the one, true, universal body of Christ (that is, they aren't really saved, a Christian, or in the right church)

However, if you were to realize points 2 and 3 and leave the RCC, angry, how would that benefit you? Point 1 is the main point.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I think you are making more of RC core beliefs then there is.

1. Salvation is not by trust alone

Salvation is an action. Your belief/faith is an action of (not for) god's grace and love. Not a couch-potato faith.

2. Anyone who believes this cannot be a Roman Catholic

What do you mean? Catholism is faith and actions in, through, and for christ (in the Nicene Creed) It doesnt pick apart christ teachings.

3. Anyone not a Roman Catholic is not in the one, true, universal body of Christ (that is, they aren't really saved, a Christian, or in the right church)

There is really no such thing as a "Roman Catholic Church". All churches have the sacraments: baptism (born again), communion (worship with peers), and repentence (saying sorry to change ones ways/behaviors). Being Roman doesnt exclude the core tenants of a persons faith in christ.

However, if you were to realize points 2 and 3 and leave the RCC, angry, how would that benefit you? Point 1 is the main point.

I didnt. I must be a needle in a haystack. I did, however noticed in a catholic and protestant environment, a person can easly form bias of other side. Peer presure and indoctrination of "think like us". It almost got me.

This is a sum of my comment for both your replies. Will get to the other bit later.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Thank you for your thoughtful, detailed comments.

Thank you. I'ma try and use scripture to see if I can keep up. I know you're gonna not like me; but, Ima reference this to RCC teachings. Some of which will be different (not wrong, but different). Try not to contrast this with your experience rather than the RCC doctrine itself (what's in the sacraments, their bible, and the Catechism) not what you see people do.

Trusting in Christ, as you asked, is a transference from trusting oneself for moral perfection/salvation/ability to enter Heaven, to trusting Jesus instead.

Salvation starts where a person both recognizes that are a sinner who needs a Savior and then they move on to trust that Savior.

154 Believing is possible only by grace and the interior helps of the Holy Spirit. But it is no less true that believing is an authentically human act. Trusting in God and cleaving to the truths he has revealed is contrary neither to human freedom nor to human reason. Even in human relations it is not contrary to our dignity to believe what other persons tell us about themselves and their intentions, or to trust their promises (for example, when a man and a woman marry) to share a communion of life with one another. If this is so, still less is it contrary to our dignity to "yield by faith the full submission of. . . intellect and will to God who reveals",26 and to share in an interior communion with him.

…16Let the word of Christ richly dwell within you as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom, and as you sing psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs with gratitude in your hearts to God. 17And whatever you do, in word ordeed, do it all in the name of the LordJesus, giving thanks to God the Fatherthrough Him. 18Wives, submit to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord.… 1Peter;: 2:15

"Whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son." John 14:13

It's a basic concept of salvation.

James 2:17

…16If one of you tells him, “Go in peace; stay warm and well fed,” but does not provide for his physical needs, what good is that? 17So too, faith by itself, if it is not complemented by action, is dead. 18But someone will say, “You have faith and I have deeds.” Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds.…

This is the best one that explains salvation in relation to deeds and faith in one lump some. Each verse in the bible (ideally for discussion) compliments each other. If there is only faith, there would be no deeds that christ repeatidly talks about.​

The issue isn't the deeds and salvation. It's using deeds apart from salvation as if that will save. Aka. Using deeds as an idol not a compliment to need for salvation.

What, in RCC, is apart from Christ insofar their deeds are invalidated from their faith in christ? (How does their deeds invalidate their faith in christ?)​

The latter half of your comment: Salvation starts where a person both recognizes that are a sinner who needs a Savior and then they move on to trust that Savior

All christians-Roman Catholics included-know this. Before one is baptized, they know they are a sinner who needs a savior. That baptism, repentance, and communion is a path by means they move into a deeper and more devotional trust in their savior. It's not saying, "hey, I have faith. Boom! So I'm a christian." A better word than deeds is devotion.

Unless there are deeds apart from christ RC believes in?​

If what you wrote is accurate, there may be Bible contradictions, since over 150 NT verses say some variant of "trusting Jesus is all that is needed for salvation." For example, John 3:16, "Whoever trusts, will never perish, but has eternal life." Jesus would be lying in John 3:16 if I trust Him then after, lose my salvation. I was trusting Him for temporary eternal life, which is itself a contradiction in terms.

According to the verses I gave above, they compliment each other. What is your trust, exactly? Is it a heart thing? I can have that. That's easy. Religious feeling is not unique by religion and denomination. We are all human and capable of experiencing the same thing by different names. It's not called god, just human brain and mind interpreting the world in a more personal intimate way to understand the nature of it and purpose (if one believes he has).

The thing is, if this is true, that faith is only needed, jesus would need to actually die on the cross. He would just lift a hand and say "poof! you guys are saved." It's more than that. Curing the dead, walking on water, these examples are how you walk in faith-what you do-acts. He didn't just think these people cured. It was all an act.

If what you say is true, jesus' actions is contrary to what his apostles taught about him. Which would be ironic, since the apostles wrote what they knew of jesus not jesus himself.

You explored how trust could be interpreted as actions/demonstration. I think God knows people's hearts as well as their actions, that is, He knows if someone has sincerely trusted or vainly trusted, a subject the Bible explores.

Yes. This is for Roman Catholics too; and, it's in their Catechism (the dictations of the Churches teachings). We don't know what's in the minds of all Roman Catholics. I went to another christian site, and one Roman Catholic talked with the best with them all because he didn't mention he was Catholic. Yet, you can tell JW off the bat.

Another question is why Jesus's cross isn't enough, why I need to do something to earn something that is impossible to earn.

It's not something you earn. It's a thank you. a penitence. You are in constant thank you to god. I don't know any Catholics (nor myself) who think god owes them anything for what they do for him. Relationships aren't like that.

Its: Because jesus' cross is enough, I need to do something for god because he saved me. I'm not asking for anything as if I'm supposed to have it. He has given me grace and I am thankful.

Two totally different worldviews.

One: I believe now, so you can do everything for me and I'll say thank you from my pew

Two: I believe now, and I will do everything for you and I will act in thanks away from my pew

I will not boast in Heaven about my good works, but I will say I was motivated to work because I was given a wondrous gift.

I don't know your Catholic experience; but, the only people I know who boast are evangelist, baptist, and some non-denominational. Even JW doesn't boast, and I consider them christian. Maybe you know charismatic Catholics? I know there is a charismatic group starting at our parish. Ideally, it's not something I heard of. People cover their heads, bow their heads, etc for humility. Boasting is on the other side of the catholic spectrum.

Not even close by a long shot.

The last part, I hear from Catholics. The former is off.

Speaking of this gift, besides 150 verses on trusting Christ, how do you reconcile the verses that say "the free gift of God is salvation through Jesus Christ"? It's not free if I have to do anything. The Bible says in hundreds of verses, "through Jesus" and never "free gift through my working". Further, you have clear verses like those in Romans 4 where it plainly says, "People with ZERO works may trust in God to have all their sin forgiven."

Works are gratitude. They are the act of salvation.

Works (what are works to you??) are the act of salvation. When a person dies in christ, they die in the act of salvation so, as they trust christ, they become him (not the literal guy). It's really hard to explain it. It's like your soul or essence because salvation insofar, that when christ died, he died not for your flesh but for/as your spirit.

The whole bible is based on some form of action that leads to salvation of a given people.

Thanks for listening to my opinion on these matters.

Sure thing. It's hard to quote unless I'm on a desktop, which I'm not on often.

 

[BilliardsBall]

I think you are making more of RC core beliefs then there is.


Salvation is an action. Your belief/faith is an action of (not for) god's grace and love. Not a couch-potato faith.



What do you mean? Catholism is faith and actions in, through, and for christ (in the Nicene Creed) It doesnt pick apart christ teachings.



There is really no such thing as a "Roman Catholic Church". All churches have the sacraments: baptism (born again), communion (worship with peers), and repentence (saying sorry to change ones ways/behaviors). Being Roman doesnt exclude the core tenants of a persons faith in christ.



I didnt. I must be a needle in a haystack. I did, however noticed in a catholic and protestant environment, a person can easly form bias of other side. Peer presure and indoctrination of "think like us". It almost got me.

This is a sum of my comment for both your replies. Will get to the other bit later.

At this point, since I'm not a Protestant but an evangelical, I'd like scriptures to back what you say. I was saved reading the Word of God and "hearing" it, not by priestcraft or works.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Thank you. I'ma try and use scripture to see if I can keep up. I know you're gonna not like me; but, Ima reference this to RCC teachings. Some of which will be different (not wrong, but different). Try not to contrast this with your experience rather than the RCC doctrine itself (what's in the sacraments, their bible, and the Catechism) not what you see people do.




…16Let the word of Christ richly dwell within you as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom, and as you sing psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs with gratitude in your hearts to God. 17And whatever you do, in word ordeed, do it all in the name of the LordJesus, giving thanks to God the Fatherthrough Him. 18Wives, submit to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord.… 1Peter;: 2:15

"Whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son." John 14:13

It's a basic concept of salvation.

James 2:17

…16If one of you tells him, “Go in peace; stay warm and well fed,” but does not provide for his physical needs, what good is that? 17So too, faith by itself, if it is not complemented by action, is dead. 18But someone will say, “You have faith and I have deeds.” Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds.…

This is the best one that explains salvation in relation to deeds and faith in one lump some. Each verse in the bible (ideally for discussion) compliments each other. If there is only faith, there would be no deeds that christ repeatidly talks about.​

The issue isn't the deeds and salvation. It's using deeds apart from salvation as if that will save. Aka. Using deeds as an idol not a compliment to need for salvation.

What, in RCC, is apart from Christ insofar their deeds are invalidated from their faith in christ? (How does their deeds invalidate their faith in christ?)​

The latter half of your comment: Salvation starts where a person both recognizes that are a sinner who needs a Savior and then they move on to trust that Savior

All christians-Roman Catholics included-know this. Before one is baptized, they know they are a sinner who needs a savior. That baptism, repentance, and communion is a path by means they move into a deeper and more devotional trust in their savior. It's not saying, "hey, I have faith. Boom! So I'm a christian." A better word than deeds is devotion.

Unless there are deeds apart from christ RC believes in?​

According to the verses I gave above, they compliment each other. What is your trust, exactly? Is it a heart thing? I can have that. That's easy. Religious feeling is not unique by religion and denomination. We are all human and capable of experiencing the same thing by different names. It's not called god, just human brain and mind interpreting the world in a more personal intimate way to understand the nature of it and purpose (if one believes he has).

The thing is, if this is true, that faith is only needed, jesus would need to actually die on the cross. He would just lift a hand and say "poof! you guys are saved." It's more than that. Curing the dead, walking on water, these examples are how you walk in faith-what you do-acts. He didn't just think these people cured. It was all an act.

If what you say is true, jesus' actions is contrary to what his apostles taught about him. Which would be ironic, since the apostles wrote what they knew of jesus not jesus himself.



Yes. This is for Roman Catholics too; and, it's in their Catechism (the dictations of the Churches teachings). We don't know what's in the minds of all Roman Catholics. I went to another christian site, and one Roman Catholic talked with the best with them all because he didn't mention he was Catholic. Yet, you can tell JW off the bat.



It's not something you earn. It's a thank you. a penitence. You are in constant thank you to god. I don't know any Catholics (nor myself) who think god owes them anything for what they do for him. Relationships aren't like that.

Its: Because jesus' cross is enough, I need to do something for god because he saved me. I'm not asking for anything as if I'm supposed to have it. He has given me grace and I am thankful.

Two totally different worldviews.

One: I believe now, so you can do everything for me and I'll say thank you from my pew

Two: I believe now, and I will do everything for you and I will act in thanks away from my pew



I don't know your Catholic experience; but, the only people I know who boast are evangelist, baptist, and some non-denominational. Even JW doesn't boast, and I consider them christian. Maybe you know charismatic Catholics? I know there is a charismatic group starting at our parish. Ideally, it's not something I heard of. People cover their heads, bow their heads, etc for humility. Boasting is on the other side of the catholic spectrum.

Not even close by a long shot.

The last part, I hear from Catholics. The former is off.



Works are gratitude. They are the act of salvation.

Works (what are works to you??) are the act of salvation. When a person dies in christ, they die in the act of salvation so, as they trust christ, they become him (not the literal guy). It's really hard to explain it. It's like your soul or essence because salvation insofar, that when christ died, he died not for your flesh but for/as your spirit.

The whole bible is based on some form of action that leads to salvation of a given people.



Sure thing. It's hard to quote unless I'm on a desktop, which I'm not on often.

"Whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son." John 14:13

I ASKED TO BE SAVED.

I deeply appreciate your sincerity and your taking so much time to write me at length, but I had a lot of trouble connecting your Bible verses to the points. It says over 150 times in the NT some variant of trust Jesus to be saved. It says ZERO times that repentance, works, even prayer is needed.

Romans 4 is plain, those with ZERO works may trust in Jesus for salvation. I will change my stances on different doctrines when the Word of God compels me.

As far as the RCC, I've had Catholic friends tell their priests, "Oh my, I think my trust/faith saved me!" only to have the priests reprove them soundly and say things that should have ended with the Reformation like, "God put me in your life to interpret the Bible for you, I've been to seminary," which I find awful since the NT says individuals are priests, and ALL are priests. Even the title priest is an affront to the Bible.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

At this point, since I'm not a Protestant but an evangelical, I'd like scriptures to back what you say. I was saved reading the Word of God and "hearing" it, not by priestcraft or works.

There is no such thing as priest craft. I never heard any catholic at all say they get blessings from the priest himself. They always, always say christ and Never ever the priest. The Eucharist isnt the priest, its jesus christ. Thats the main point: jesus christ. Deomination scrutiny is an insult to the people who believe im christ Like you.

I dont know about how evangelicals see it. Most Ive met are very noncatholic friendly more than JW in behavior. I had one evangelical preached when they found I was catholic nothing but freemason this and freemason that. He doesnt know me nor any catholic (probably not Catholicism beyond gold and priests ) My uncle always warns me about them as if I was headed to hell or something. Im glas I have non-religious parents, because its easy to pick up on other peoples hate.

Two other things, if a JW or Catholic mentions verses, you set them aside. If your peers give the same scripture, you two may agree with the same understanding. Over the same scripture!
I usually dont quote because of it. Its silly.

The other thing is catholics believe in christ first. The Church is based on the bible, so whatever prayers and devotions they have for christ, its based from the bible.

Thats why we quote experiences and understanding personally. While bible scriptures are cool, christ himself is better.

Dont know if you understand the difference between christ and scripture. Catholics are devotional based. Evangelicals are bible. Nothing wrong with that. Just try not to judge catholic doctrine base on your experiences. I came to catholicism from the bible, so I dont understand how you are getting thing else -other than christ-

 

[Unveiled Artist]

"Whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son." John 14:13

I ASKED TO BE SAVED.

I deeply appreciate your sincerity and your taking so much time to write me at length, but I had a lot of trouble connecting your Bible verses to the points. It says over 150 times in the NT some variant of trust Jesus to be saved. It says ZERO times that repentance, works, even prayer is needed.

Romans 4 is plain, those with ZERO works may trust in Jesus for salvation. I will change my stances on different doctrines when the Word of God compels me.

As far as the RCC, I've had Catholic friends tell their priests, "Oh my, I think my trust/faith saved me!" only to have the priests reprove them soundly and say things that should have ended with the Reformation like, "God put me in your life to interpret the Bible for you, I've been to seminary," which I find awful since the NT says individuals are priests, and ALL are priests. Even the title priest is an affront to the Bible.

Where does a catholic disagree with you?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

"Whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son." John 14:13

I ASKED TO BE SAVED.

Yes. Catholics believe this too. We say it at confirmation, every mass, and personal prayers.

Where on catholic doctrine does catholicism disagrees with this?

From their doctrine not some of the people you've met.

I deeply appreciate your sincerity and your taking so much time to write me at length, but I had a lot of trouble connecting your Bible verses to the points. It says over 150 times in the NT some variant of trust Jesus to be saved. It says ZERO times that repentance, works, even prayer is needed.

Yes. It says "works with faith", it says follow jesus' example, it also says be baptized, and people actually evangilized in Acts not sit in their pews telling gentiles they cant become christian.

Catholicism agrees with you. Where in their doctrine does it not? (Catholics have the same bible as you; same quotes is in their bible)

Romans 4 is plain, those with ZERO works may trust in Jesus for salvation. I will change my stances on different doctrines when the Word of God compels me

Yes. That is why catholics go to great lengths to thank god. Some even cry because christ and NO ONE ELSE but christ saves them.

You're not giving me anything than church doctrine unless you can use their scriptures and doctrine to prove differently.

As far as the RCC, I've had Catholic friends tell their priests, "Oh my, I think my trust/faith saved me!" only to have the priests reprove them soundly and say things that should have ended with the Reformation like, "God put me in your life to interpret the Bible for you, I've been to seminary," which I find awful since the NT says individuals are priests, and ALL

Yeah. Every parish differs in approach. Also, age is an indicator as well as location but not at all its doctrine.

Start from doctrine. I had many "unchristian" experiences from catholics, protestants, and JW. But out of the three, JW is more patient with bible conversations. Catholics focus on christ first (devotion and worship foremost). The bible (the physical text) is not salvation.

Like I said, though. Salvation is an act.

Its jesus actually died on the cross not spiritually and not just through prayer. If you dont understand the "act of salvation", I honestly dont know where you come from if not christ.

(I can put more context to scripture. But, I rather you understand and talk about it not say Im wrong. The only way you can do that is show catholic doctrine to show the differences. So far, it looks like you focused on gold. More so than catholics ) Its ironic but just being honest.

Edited.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

"Whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son." John 14:13

I ASKED TO BE SAVED.

I deeply appreciate your sincerity and your taking so much time to write me at length, but I had a lot of trouble connecting your Bible verses to the points. It says over 150 times in the NT some variant of trust Jesus to be saved. It says ZERO times that repentance, works, even prayer is needed.

Romans 4 is plain, those with ZERO works may trust in Jesus for salvation. I will change my stances on different doctrines when the Word of God compels me.

As far as the RCC, I've had Catholic friends tell their priests, "Oh my, I think my trust/faith saved me!" only to have the priests reprove them soundly and say things that should have ended with the Reformation like, "God put me in your life to interpret the Bible for you, I've been to seminary," which I find awful since the NT says individuals are priests, and ALL are priests. Even the title priest is an affront to the Bible.

I didnt want to repeat so here are the scriptures about works and salvation/faith.

Contradictions Challenge (3)

 

[BilliardsBall]

There is no such thing as priest craft. I never heard any catholic at all say they get blessings from the priest himself. They always, always say christ and Never ever the priest. The Eucharist isnt the priest, its jesus christ. Thats the main point: jesus christ. Deomination scrutiny is an insult to the people who believe im christ Like you.

I dont know about how evangelicals see it. Most Ive met are very noncatholic friendly more than JW in behavior. I had one evangelical preached when they found I was catholic nothing but freemason this and freemason that. He doesnt know me nor any catholic (probably not Catholicism beyond gold and priests ) My uncle always warns me about them as if I was headed to hell or something. Im glas I have non-religious parents, because its easy to pick up on other peoples hate.

Two other things, if a JW or Catholic mentions verses, you set them aside. If your peers give the same scripture, you two may agree with the same understanding. Over the same scripture!
I usually dont quote because of it. Its silly.

The other thing is catholics believe in christ first. The Church is based on the bible, so whatever prayers and devotions they have for christ, its based from the bible.

Thats why we quote experiences and understanding personally. While bible scriptures are cool, christ himself is better.

Dont know if you understand the difference between christ and scripture. Catholics are devotional based. Evangelicals are bible. Nothing wrong with that. Just try not to judge catholic doctrine base on your experiences. I came to catholicism from the bible, so I dont understand how you are getting thing else -other than christ-

It's a not a comparison between how friendly JWs, Catholics, Protestants and evangelicals are, it's whether you and I have the correct tools we need to avoid eternity in Hell and thousands of years in agony in purgatory. Purgatory is not in the scriptures, one of a number of ways in which I can discern good doctrine.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Yes. Catholics believe this too. We say it at confirmation, every mass, and personal prayers.

Where on catholic doctrine does catholicism disagrees with this?

From their doctrine not some of the people you've met.



Yes. It says "works with faith", it says follow jesus' example, it also says be baptized, and people actually evangilized in Acts not sit in their pews telling gentiles they cant become christian.

Catholicism agrees with you. Where in their doctrine does it not? (Catholics have the same bible as you; same quotes is in their bible)



Yes. That is why catholics go to great lengths to thank god. Some even cry because christ and NO ONE ELSE but christ saves them.

You're not giving me anything than church doctrine unless you can use their scriptures and doctrine to prove differently.



Yeah. Every parish differs in approach. Also, age is an indicator as well as location but not at all its doctrine.

Start from doctrine. I had many "unchristian" experiences from catholics, protestants, and JW. But out of the three, JW is more patient with bible conversations. Catholics focus on christ first (devotion and worship foremost). The bible (the physical text) is not salvation.

Like I said, though. Salvation is an act.

Its jesus actually died on the cross not spiritually and not just through prayer. If you dont understand the "act of salvation", I honestly dont know where you come from if not christ.

(I can put more context to scripture. But, I rather you understand and talk about it not say Im wrong. The only way you can do that is show catholic doctrine to show the differences. So far, it looks like you focused on gold. More so than catholics ) Its ironic but just being honest.

Edited.

Salvation is a one-time act of trust, in the Greek and in context. I can show you OT verses here also. I don't ask to be saved over and again during prayer, mass, confirmation, etc.

It is a GREAT knowledge to have, that one is saved despite one's shortcomings. I wish you had that knowledge IMHO, because it sounds like you are working to help make sure you might make it to Heaven. This is one non-biblical legacy of Catholicism.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Salvation is a one-time act of trust, in the Greek and in context. I can show you OT verses here also. I don't ask to be saved over and again during prayer, mass, confirmation, etc.

It is a GREAT knowledge to have, that one is saved despite one's shortcomings. I wish you had that knowledge IMHO, because it sounds like you are working to help make sure you might make it to Heaven. This is one non-biblical legacy of Catholicism.

I have to stop you here. Religion is not special in regards to conversation, disagreements, and interest in doctrine. Many many historians are not christian; yet, they are more focused on their work and interest without making it personal to their own belief system whether it be Buddhist, Bahai, or Wiccan. It doesnt matter.

That said, I have a lot of passion for The Church and the reason I do not practice any type of doctrine evangalist and liturgical doctrine because I do not agree at all with christian teachings. I know no jesus/god, no heaven/hell, and no other miracles in the bible. It is not a special book to where you need to question my motives and beliefs to lead this discussion way off its point. Its a redirection.

Please ask me what I believe. I enjoy conversation, and religion is no excuse to question what I believe anymore than any other topic of discussion.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Salvation is a one-time act of trust, in the Greek and in context. I can show you OT verses here also. I don't ask to be saved over and again during prayer, mass, confirmation, etc.

It is a GREAT knowledge to have, that one is saved despite one's shortcomings. I wish you had that knowledge IMHO, because it sounds like you are working to help make sure you might make it to Heaven. This is one non-biblical legacy of Catholicism.

Take out catholism. Thats blinding you severely. I own no gold, no bibles, no crufixes, and no weekly mass. Im catholic by sacrament not by belief and Mass; crucial difference if you understood it.

Salvation is an act. An act is something you do. Its an action, a verb. Jesus didnt just sit at the side lines, he actually was killed and actually died on the cross. Your line of thinking makes jesus passion merely spiritual.

Salvation is an act: a lifestyle. Its not a act of repentence. You repentence once to ask for salvation and again to keep right with god. Salvation is keeping that line so you wont be judged by your works but by the promise you receive from christ by the works you do for him. Works isnt righteous. Its specifically for and from god/christ.

I know gold blinds you. Take baptist. They disagree with works. Spit at it. Yet, they help many of people come to christ and in places Ive been early in life, help with social needs of others and basicslly do gods "work." Whats so ironic is, they consider work evil but still work to please god. So, if they dont worship and please god, then by what means is god judging their deeds and what reason should they go to heaven if they did nothing to thank god for putting them in a position to be there?

Mass: Body of christ/people brothers and sisters of christ
Confirmation: asking jesus to be lord and savior by mouth
Communion: worship as one body (more than one, I am present)
Baptism: being born again by spirit god
Confession: repenting to GOD only

Unless you are blinded by words, where are these not in the bible?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

It's a not a comparison between how friendly JWs, Catholics, Protestants and evangelicals are, it's whether you and I have the correct tools we need to avoid eternity in Hell and thousands of years in agony in purgatory. Purgatory is not in the scriptures, one of a number of ways in which I can discern good doctrine.

Purgatory has nothing to do with salvation. Why bring that up?

Correct doctrine so far Ive been around and read is totally confrontational. No one is a real christian to their counterparts, but you all (catholic, baptist, evangalist, jw, etc) ALL believe you got it right. Its quite silly.

The difference is some christians believe the goal is heaven/hell and others living salvation by grace and promise of heaven/hell (aka faith). The former lives off of "we know. But we have faith." The other "we dont know and we still have faith"

Then some christians are so off that I dont know if they are christians in the biblical sense of the word.

But because you all know more than each other, its hard fo tell what you guys believe. Maybe be more open to learn and converse, you can get your points across in a less insulting way.

I hope?