Pssssh. No wonder you only have 11 frubals. I, as you can see, have 12.
Let us see what reasoning Miss Meow Mix gives to back up her statement.
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God the Programmer
- Thread starter Meow Mix
- Start date
Pssssh. No wonder you only have 11 frubals. I, as you can see, have 12.
Let us see what reasoning Miss Meow Mix gives to back up her statement.
Silver
Just maybe
Perhaps the initial conditions are not fixed in stone, but are tunable by scientists in the future. The future scientists go abck in time and tune in the physical laws, and as a result the universe supports life and the scientists eventually come into existence.
Another idea
Imagine initially the conditions were chaotic. Then scientists in the future invented a machine that was like a supercomputer which they sent back in time to the beginning, to be powered off the chaotic energy. The 'supercomputer' powered up, the universe began, life evolved, the scientists were born, and they invented the 'supercomputer'. (So rather that a Big Bang it was a Switch On).
Silver:drool:
Another idea
Imagine initially the conditions were chaotic. Then scientists in the future invented a machine that was like a supercomputer which they sent back in time to the beginning, to be powered off the chaotic energy. The 'supercomputer' powered up, the universe began, life evolved, the scientists were born, and they invented the 'supercomputer'. (So rather that a Big Bang it was a Switch On).
Silver:drool:
No, a red herring is a dodge to avoid answering a difficult question in detail.
The basis is simply that an omnipotent, omniscient being could have created the world in such a way where there is less suffering.
For instance, imagine a world without ebola.
...wasn't too hard to imagine, was it? God could do that. Why didn't he? Why did god create it in the first place?
Thief
Rogue Theologian
Humans die one of two ways....prematurely by accident..or disease.
So this actually leads to a discussion...why do we die?
It's part of the program.
No, the question is why do we suffer.
There's a difference between getting old and passing in your sleep... and wasting away painfully, slowly, to a debilitating disease that strips you of any human dignity.
Thief
Rogue Theologian
Pain and suffering...
As if life is suppose to lack such things?
I have heard it said that suffering is what you allow...what you tolerate.
Is that what you mean?
Or do you worry over the eventual demise of being human?
Well then, this all boils down to one basic question - does God, assuming (from your point of view) that He exists, have free will?
There is no quick and easy, fast food answer to a question such as this. Only by beginning to see and understand the seamless garment of Truth that unites all things can we begin to gain insight into this topic.
So I suppose I will do my best to not "dodge" the question, but will offer a detailed reply. From there, you can decide if there is enough "evidence" (since that seems to be the key -SUBJECTIVE- term upon which many folks on these forums are so insistent ) to satisfy your inquiry. (Of course, no matter how much worthy evidence is submitted, "a man convinced against his will"...etc.)
Before time, before creation, all that existed was the Unspeakable Entity, the Eternal One. In the One existed and exists all things in the form of thought, seeds. Keeping in mind that man is made in the image of God, notice this observation: the seeds of an earthly man are a type and symbol of his thoughts, and vice versa. Thousands of thoughts on a given day are involuntarily generated within the mind of a man, just as thousands of seeds are involuntarily generated within the loins of a man throughout a given day. But only a small portion of those thoughts, throughout a day and a lifetime, are brought to fruition in the form of word or deed. Likewise, only a small portion, if any, of a man's seeds are brought to fruition throughout a lifetime, in the from of offspring.
Now that we see the parallel between thought and seed, we can continue our investigation into these trivial little matters and queries such as, oh, why and how we exist, why evil and suffering take place, if man has free will, and if God has free will.
In order for the One to bring Its thoughts, Its seeds, to fruition, it needed to no longer remain as one, but two become two, so that Its "seeds could be planted." Seeing as how the fullness of all things good consist in the One and of the One, in order for the One to have become two, it necessitated a split into the existence of a contrast, of enmity, something other than Itself. And since the fullness of all good consists in the One, this split necessitated the introduction of that which contrasts good - evil.
In order for God to be recognized as, and defined as God, and to be recognized as perfect, it necessitated the existence of something imperfect - creation. At the moment of creation, the One "became" God by creating something inferior to Itself. The Superior Being gains his identity as such by the existence of inferior beings; beings that can recognize and behold and define Him as the Superior Being.
Even as the male would not have his identity as a male apart from the existence of a female, so too does God not have His identity as God apart from the existence of creation that is subject to Him. Male and female help to define each other, even as Creator and creation help to define each other.
On this issue, the wisdom of Buddha shines forth in these words:
Nothing ever exists entirely alone; everything is in relation to everything else.
All of recognizable existence spawns from this basic element of the split. As a natural overflow of this, this is why only male/female unions have the capability to bring forth further life; and not male/male or female/female unions. Because male is not male without the existence of female, and vice versa. There would be no creation, no existence, if the One had remained One. In order to bring foth recognizable existence, the Great Entity had to split into a contrasting, male/female dual existence.
This is seen in the Genesis account of Adam and Eve. Adam the male existed solely unto himself, and, after being put to sleep, a part of his own being was fashioned into Eve the female.
So what is the significance of Adam being put to sleep (other than the obviouis truth that it would be a painful experience to have one's side opened up, and a body part removed)? Remember, as humans, we are made in the image of God. As such, the things we do and experience are just a smaller representation of God's own makeup and personality. As humans, when we dream, there are times when we (in our dreams) do or say things that are out of character for ourselves. For the most part (aside from the anamoly of lucid dreaming), we do not have control of what takes place in our dreams, even our own actions within them. And sometimes this leads us to dreaming ourselevs doing things and witnessing things that we would never do in waking time. But our human sleep is only a "type" of a higher spiritual reality. Now follow along carefully.
Because God represents the male (Adam), and creation that came from him represents the female (Eve), and because the ultimate destiny is for God to again become one and live in harmony with His creation (even as a male and female come together as one), at this time, his "female companion," His "Eve," is being formed. Even as Eve was taken as a part of Adam and then formed into a female as he slept, so too is God's creation being formed while He "sleeps." And, even as when we sleep and dream we have no real control of our dreams, and think things out of character for ourselves, so too is God dreaming and thinking things outside of His true heavenly, and fully good nature, and so too is His creation "out of control." This gives God an "excuse," if you will, for the existence of suffering and evil and the rampant chaos of the world.
Because all things that happen are taking place in the very mind of God, the bad things that are taking place are due to the fact that he is "asleep" and "dreaming" while his female "companion" is being formed, and being made fit to unite with Him; all of creation being destined to one day return to its divine nature and unity with the One from which it came.
PolyHedral
Superabacus Mystic
But surely the One should be able to create an identical copy of itself?
Even mathematics? It follows entirely from logic, which doesn't exist in relation to anything.
logician
Well-Known Member
Evolutions makes a supposed god unnecessary. So does matter and energu existing forever - no creator god needed, just invented.
It already existed as an "identical copy" of Itself. Infinite "identical copies" within Itself. The One is infinite, and we were all a part of it at one time, even if only as seeds or fore-thoughts. The only way It could have "relations" and have the existence of another entity was to split into something not-identical to itself.
Mathematics is comprised of numbers, which are infinite, and yet, divided. 1 has a value of 1 not based solely by its own existence, but by the existence of all other numbers. The existence of each numberical value is only brought about by the sum of the existence of all numerical values. 1 is 1 because it's not 2, or 3, or 0, or -54, or 443,287. A number only has its individual numeric value in relation to all other numerical values.
If all that existed was 1, then it wouldn't be a number. It would just be. Only the existence of all other numbers gives 1 its value, and definition as a number. And the same is infinitely true for the values of all numbers.
The same is true of colors. If all that existed was one color, it would not be a color. It would just be. Only by the existence of other colors does red become a color and have a definition.
This all spawns from the root of all existence - God would not be God unless something else existed that could behold God. That's us.
PolyHedral
Superabacus Mystic
Does that mean it would also contain everything that is not within itself?
Aha! Well, here is where things start getting tricky and a little more complex.
The question - does "nothing" actually exist?
Reality is only as real as it is to the person who is experiencing it. If two men experienced the same action being done to them - let's say a sledgehammer to the shins; the same sledgehammer, at the same velocity, from the same distance - and because of different pain threshold levels, one man felt excruciating pain, and the other, little or no pain at all. What would the "reality" be? Would we say that a "painful act" was carried out against them? Well, the "reality" would be different for each man. One man would consider it a painful act, while the other would not consider it as such. So the reality is different for each man.
In this current earthly existence, which is an illusion, as we are at a time of being "hidden" or "separated" from our divine reality that is one with absolute Truth, we currently reside in a dimension where there is no absolute truth. Truth is only as true as it is to the individual who either accepts it or denies it. Nothing demonstrates this more than religion. There are many religions, and many denominations within each, all claiming and being convinced that each has the truth. But again, this is because this is a time of illusion, an existence where there is currently no absolute truth.
Let's take death, for instance. Does death "exist?" Or is it merely the absence of life? If death is the absence of life, and reality is only as real as it is to the person experiencing it, then technically NO - death does not exist. It is merely an illusion. It is not possible to "experience" death. How can someone who is in the state of the absence of life, un-feeling, un-knowing, un-perceiving; how can death exist to that person? And obviously, death doesn't exist to those who are living, who have life, because death is the absence of life. Death is merely an illusion to those who are alive.
We can understand this concept with science as well. Scientifically, light is something. It exists. Conversely, and scientifically, darkness does not exist. It is merely the absence of light.
In the grand scheme of existence and creation, these truths are simply smaller representations of a grand truth; a truth that shows us that the dimension, the earthly envelope in which we currently exist, is just an illusion, and does not exist. Evil does not exist. Death does not exist. Darkness does not exist.
So, in an attempt to answer your complex question, I will just say that in this Divine dream of the One, we are currently in a dimension where division and limitations and no absolute truth exists. This is because we are living in a reflection, a mirror reflection, of the Eternal One. All of creation is a reflection of God. We are created in His image, but created in His reflected image. That is, we are like him, but in opposite form. Because of this, when we dream, anything and everything is possible, and there are no limitations - which is the opposite of our wakened reality. In day to day life, our awake time is set within the confines of the limitations of this earthly existence.
This is the opposing reflection of the Divine Dreamer. In His dream, is an existence of limitation and confined possibilities. And just as we, when we dream, can dream of things that don't really exist in our earthly reality, when He dreams (as He is doing now), He is dreaming of things (evil and death) that don't really exist in the ultimate, higher dimension reality.
logician
Well-Known Member
Your arguments really aren't analogous, and we didn't come along until quite recently in geological terms (nor were we preordained), did a god not exist until we came along?
PolyHedral
Superabacus Mystic
But I most definitely exist. And I'm not sure you answered your own question, since you don't seem to be clear on whether nothing exists as a entity. In mathematics, the empty set definitely exists.
It's like the old tree falling in a forest question. Yeah, it creates sound waves, but is a sound really a "sound" if there is no ear to behold it?
In our limited scope of rationalization and understanding in this earthly existence, the best way to sum it up is - If the One didn't split into something that contrasts It, then everything and nothing would simultaneously exist. The One would exist but would have no definition or identity, would it really exist, or would it really matter that it exists?
Again, the natural overflow of this into our earthly existence is the male/female relationship. A male only gains his identity as such by the existence of a female.
Another way of looking at it - God wanted to see Himself; He wanted to know His identity. But the only way He could do this was by looking at His relfection in a mirror. That mirror is creation. Everything in creation is a representation of some aspect of Him. But remember the enigma of the mirror - it shows us exactly as we are, but in opposite form. That's us. That's earthly existence. It is an anti-reality. A reflection.
We currently exist in an illusion.
Nothing is an illusion. Nothing "exists" in our current, reflected, earthly reality.
Illusions are things that seem to exist, but really don't. This goes back to my previous post - in order for God to actually "exist," to the best of our understanding in terms of existence, It had to split. Before that, it both existed and did not exist simultaneously. Because it split in two, we can refer to Its original state as the One. But even one, as a value, would not exist if it were not for different values. We refer to It (what was before it became split) in the best human, earthly terminology we can, because the truth is, It is un-namable, and un-definable. It is of, and is Itself, a different dimension.
As is stated in Chapter 1 of Tao Te Ching:
The Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao
The name that can be named is not the eternal name
The nameless is the origin of Heaven and Earth
The named is the mother of myriad things
PolyHedral
Superabacus Mystic
But this is logically impossible; Something which does not exist cannot do anything.
Think of it this way:
Before the split, all that existed was 0. Now, after the split, we exist in the anti-reality of negative integers, and the reality, "God," exists in the reality of positive integers.
a male only gains a distinction from females by females being present. there is much more to being a man than not being a female, particularly when you ignore the gender specificity and focus on what makes you an individual. if i'm following you correctly then the word 'god' simply means 'not creation' and there's nothing more to it. 'god' is a gender?
you are also going off of the assumption that there was no such thing as hermaphrodite or an asexual reproducer. sexual reproduction (requiring two gendered partners) is a relatively new practice in comparison to other species' means of repopulating. what makes you so sure that the supreme entity would choose to model his own creative process after ours?