God: Trinity or Unity?

[Kenny]

no, animals and even man have the same spirit
ECCLESIASTES
3
18 I also said in my heart about the sons of men that the true God will test them and show them that they are like animals, 19 for there is an outcome for humans and an outcome for animals; they all have the same outcome. As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but one spirit. So man has no superiority over animals, for everything is futile. 20 All are going to the same place. They all come from the dust, and they all are returning to the dust.

Sorry for the late reply... haven't been able to address because of time.

The definition of spirit, according to Strongs, has many applications and definitions. I think the context becomes important... and we all die, as it says. In that aspect we are no different than animals.

 

[Soapy]

Sorry for the late reply... haven't been able to address because of time.

The definition of spirit, according to Strongs, has many applications and definitions. I think the context becomes important... and we all die, as it says. In that aspect we are no different than animals.

1) Animals are not made in the image of God.

2) Animals are not judged.

3) Animal Spirits are not ‘resting with God’ awaiting resurrection.

 

[Kenny]

1) Animals are not made in the image of God.

2) Animals are not judged.

3) Animal Spirits are not ‘resting with God’ awaiting resurrection.

1) True
2) True
3) IMV half true. Animals are not awaiting resurrection but I stand that they have souls and not spirits.

 

[Soapy]

1) True
2) True
3) IMV half true. Animals are not awaiting resurrection but I stand that they have souls and not spirits.

‘Soul’ is ‘Spirit and body’: The Creature.

In humanity we say ‘Person’ because we are image of God, a CREATURE in the image of God. But animals are not given a special word and are referred to only by their animal genre: ‘Lion’, ‘Tiger’, ‘Fish’, ‘Bird’, etc.

EVERYTHING that has life in it HAS A SPIRIT.
EVERYTHING that has a Spirit is a CREATURE.
EVERYTHING that is a Creature is a SOUL.

If there is a Spirit then there is a SOUL. The Soul of a human is not the same as the Soul of a base animal nor the same as the Soul of a plant…. Each Soul is relevant to its own species but the Soul of Man is SPECIAL since its SPIRIT is made in the image of GOD!! Hence 1) and 2) apply!!!

 

[Kenny]

‘Soul’ is ‘Spirit and body’: The Creature.

In humanity we say ‘Person’ because we are image of God, a CREATURE in the image of God. But animals are not given a special word and are referred to only by their animal genre: ‘Lion’, ‘Tiger’, ‘Fish’, ‘Bird’, etc.

EVERYTHING that has life in it HAS A SPIRIT.
EVERYTHING that has a Spirit is a CREATURE.
EVERYTHING that is a Creature is a SOUL.

If there is a Spirit then there is a SOUL. The Soul of a human is not the same as the Soul of a base animal nor the same as the Soul of a plant…. Each Soul is relevant to its own species but the Soul of Man is SPECIAL since its SPIRIT is made in the image of GOD!! Hence 1) and 2) apply!!!

I think we can agree that we disagree. I continue to stand on 1 Thess 5:23 and Heb 4 and others

 

[Soapy]

I think we can agree that we disagree. I continue to stand on 1 Thess 5:23 and Heb 4 and others

As you like it. The Bible warned that many will prefer the lie.

Oh, just out of interest, how would you say:

• ‘There was nobody in the room’

using ‘Soul’, or ‘Spirit’?

Would you say:

• ‘That was not a Soul in the room’
• ‘No Person were in the room’

But what about ‘Spirit’?

By the way, don’t be tempted to use ‘body’… as in ‘no body’. I’m speaking of living Souls.
‘Nobody’ means the same as ‘No Person’.

 

[Kenny]

As you like it. The Bible warned that many will prefer the lie.

Yes... of course, who is actually preferring the lie is a great questing

Oh, just out of interest, how would you say:

• ‘There was nobody in the room’

using ‘Soul’, or ‘Spirit’?

Fallacy - when you say there is only two options.

Look at your statement.... "There was no"body" in the room"... it is exactly what it is saying. There is no "body" in the room - the third part of the makeup of the tri-une of the person.

Would you say:

• ‘That was not a Soul in the room’
• ‘No Person were in the room’

Person.... being spirit, soul and body

But what about ‘Spirit’?

By the way, don’t be tempted to use ‘body’… as in ‘no body’. I’m speaking of living Souls.
‘Nobody’ means the same as ‘No Person’.

Saying I can't use "no body" - is trying to craft, twist what is true... kind of like what Satan did.

 

[DNB]

I firmly believe He's a Unity

Of course, what else could He possibly be?
Having any more than 1 all powerful entity, or person, in the universe, would be the quintessence of redundancy.
Nothing would separate or distinguish them outside of their names.

 

[Soapy]

Of course, what else could He possibly be?
Having any more than 1 all powerful entity, or person, in the universe, would be the quintessence of redundancy.
Nothing would separate or distinguish them outside of their names.

What does ‘Unity’ mean?

Is it ‘A Composition of more than one element or entity’?

And, ‘Each of the elements / entities is exactly alike… exactly as all powerful, exactly as all knowing, exactly as in all places at the same time..’

But, ‘Why is there a need for three OMNIPOTENTS, three OMNISCIENTS, three OMNIPRESENTS’?

And, ‘All three are IMUTABLE…’!! Yet ‘ONE BECAME MUTABLE…!’???

And ‘One DIED…’ but an immortal cannot die - yet this one did: “I am he who was dead BUT IS NOW alive forevermore (is now immortal!)

But, one of these three who are completely equal DECIDED that one should become man? How? (See above about immutability) and be SEPARATED from the UNITY… so no longer a unity?? Who gave that one the power and authority OVER the other one to send him ‘from Heaven into the physical flesh world’?

Question: if they are all equal, could the Spirit of God have sent the Father to become man…?

Question: Could the Son have sent the spirit of God to become flesh as man?

Question: Who gave the Father the power and authority to give as a gift HIS SPIRIT OF HOLINESS to mankind? HIS SPIRIT???

• ‘I will send to you THE GIFT OF THE FATHER - which HE PROMISED YOU!’

Too many questions … too many fallacious answers … It is obvious that those who present the fallacious answer are knowingly doing so but do not understand the consequences of ‘GRIEVING THE SPIRIT OF GOD’…

Beware all you who partake of these infidelities - Satan is calling for your Soul - so it was said to Peter after he lied about his relationship with Jesus Christ!!!

And how do you feel about your relationship with God and with Jesus Christ?

 

[Soapy]

Yes... of course, who is actually preferring the lie is a great questing



Fallacy - when you say there is only two options.

Look at your statement.... "There was no"body" in the room"... it is exactly what it is saying. There is no "body" in the room - the third part of the makeup of the tri-une of the person.



Person.... being spirit, soul and body



Saying I can't use "no body" - is trying to craft, twist what is true... kind of like what Satan did.

Kenny, ‘NO BODY’ is not the same as saying ‘NOBODY’… and you know that. So it is clear you are being deceptive - and why? Can you not just accept a truthful statement?

‘Nobody’ is EXPLICITLY speaking of a human person.

‘No Body’ can pertain any number of things - which is not the question I asked you!!

It is the same like the difference beaten ‘FIRSTBORN’ and ‘FIRST BORN’. The first mean

• “The most beloved … ”

and the latter means:

• “The first [male] out of the womb”

Cain was the ‘First born’ of Adam but Abel was the ‘Firstborn’ of God… until Cain killed him - and the Seth became the ‘First Born’ of God.

There were many tribes and nations in the days of Abraham (and even Abraham’s family worshipped pagan Gods) but God chose him out of all the people to lead him into a holy tribe that later became Israel - His ‘Firstborn’ - most beloved tribe!

Ishmael was FIRST BORN AND FIRSTBORN (most beloved) by Abraham but Ishmael sinned and ISAAC became the FIRSTBORN of Abraham (Ishmael always remains FIRST BORN irrespective of the most loved child position!)

In fact if you list the parents and first born of all the lineage up to Solomon you will find the same pattern of the FIRST BORN initially being ALSO the FIRSTBORN but then sinning and ANOTHER becomes FIRSTBORN of the Father.

I’ve written this so many times yet no one seems to understand or acknowledges understanding.

 

[Kenny]

I’ve written this so many times yet no one seems to understand or acknowledges understanding.

Probably because it doesn't match up with scriptures and, potentially, you are interpreting it wrong.

 

[Soapy]

Probably because it doesn't match up with scriptures and, potentially, you are interpreting it wrong.

Please …. Try looking into it. Don’t just deny it… please look and see:

• (Of Abraham) Ishmael … Isaac
• (Of Isaac) Esau … Jacob
• (Of Jacob) Rueben … Joseph
• (Of Jesse) Eliab … David
• (Of David) Amnon / Absolom … Solomon
• (Of the nations) …. “Then say to Pharaoh, ‘This is what the LORD says: Israel is my firstborn son [Most beloved nation]” (Exo 4:22)
• (Of God) Adam … Jesus Christ

Please do not knee jerk and naysay… check it and see the pattern of things:

• The FIRST sins and ANOTHER is brought up to replace him
• The ‘FIRSTBORN’ is he that is MOST BELOVED regardless of position in the chronological birth line.
• Initially the FIRST BORN is always the FIRSTBORN… A man’s first born male child (in the time of the Old Testament) is always his pride and joy - the FIRSTBORN… the most beloved!

Hence, Colossians 1:15 says of Jesus Christ:

• “The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.”
• “The Son is the image of the invisible God, the MOST BELOVED of all creation.”

- Indeed, did God not love Seth…

- Did God not love Abraham (and call him ‘Friend’?)…

- Did God not love David (and made him to have an everlasting throne?)

- But God loved Jesus MORE than all of them because all of them sinned in some manner or other but Jesus did not sin - so Jesus is the only sinless SON… and thus the most beloved.

 

[Kenny]

Please …. Try looking into it. Don’t just deny it… please look and see:

• (Of Abraham) Ishmael … Isaac
• (Of Isaac) Esau … Jacob
• (Of Jacob) Rueben … Joseph
• (Of Jesse) Eliab … David
• (Of David) Amnon / Absolom … Solomon
• (Of God) Adam … Jesus Christ

Please do not knee jerk and naysay… check it and see the pattern of things:

• The FIRST sins and ANOTHER is brought up to replace him
• The ‘FIRSTBORN’ is he that is MOST BELOVED regardless of position in the chronological birth line.
• Initially the FIRST BORN is always the FIRSTBORN… A man’s first born male child (in the time of the Old Testament) is always his pride and joy - the FIRSTBORN… the most beloved!

Colossians 1:18
And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

 

[Soapy]

Colossians 1:18
And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Kenny… you are not reading what I’m showing you. You are just setting out objections that are not even aligned with what is being shown to you.

• “And I will appoint him to be my firstborn, the most exalted of the kings of the earth.” (Psalm 89:27)

Psalm 89:27 shows a PROPHESY of the MESSIAH whom God will appoint as the most exalted of all kings of the earth… (of the earth of humanity). The messiah to come from the loins of Abraham, from the line of David, to be Lord (Master) - to be anointed as King and high priest… will be God’s most loved (Firstborn).

Kenny, will the messiah be born first (First Born)… or will he be FIRSTBORN (Most loved) of God:

• “This is my Son in whom I am well pleased’
• ‘Behold my SERVANT, my CHOSEN ONE in whom I am well pleased’!

 

[Kenny]

Kenny… you are not reading what I’m showing you. You are just setting out objections that are not even aligned with what is being shown to you.

• “And I will appoint him to be my firstborn, the most exalted of the kings of the earth.” (Psalm 89:27)

Psalm 89:27 shows a PROPHESY of the MESSIAH whom God will appoint as the most exalted of all kings of the earth… (of the earth of humanity). The messiah to come from the loins of Abraham, from the line of David, to be Lord (Master) - to be anointed as King and high priest… will be God’s most loved (Firstborn).

Kenny, will the messiah be born first (First Born)… or will he be FIRSTBORN (Most loved) of God:

• “This is my Son in whom I am well pleased’
• ‘Behold my SERVANT, my CHOSEN ONE in whom I am well pleased’!

That didn't explain "firstborn among the dead"... still a firstborn. It was in his resurrection that he become the "most exalted of all kings of the earth" as Psalm 89:27 and Philippians 2 explain.

 

[Soapy]

That didn't explain "firstborn among the dead"... still a firstborn. It was in his resurrection that he become the "most exalted of all kings of the earth" as Psalm 89:27 and Philippians 2 explain.

Kenny, why are you doing this….!!!!

• “And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the first born from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.”

It is evident that the translators were not writing ‘Firstborn’ but ‘First Born’… as I explained before… It is a CHRONOLOGICAL FIRST… Jesus is FIRST RESURRECTED FROM THE SPIRITUAL WOMB (which is the TOMB!)
It most certainly does not mean ‘Most Beloved’ of the dead!!!

First to be raised up from among the dead… So in all things jesus assumes the primary position - the supremacy. You purposefully misquoted the scriptures hoping I wouldn’t notice!!!???

No one has ascended up into Heaven except he that first descended into the grave… namely, the Son of man who is in Heaven…

The first BIRTH is subject to sin….
The second (rebirth) is Spiritual…
For indeed the Spirit did not come first but the flesh, and then afterwards the Spiritual!!

Kenny, why are you grieving the truth???

 

[Kenny]

Kenny, why are you doing this….!!!!

• “And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the first born from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.”

First to be raised up from among the dead… So in all things jesus assumes the primary position - the supremacy. You purposefully misquoted the scriptures hoping I wouldn’t notice!!!???

How can I misquote a quote? I'm doing this because you haven't explained it. If you explained things better, maybe people would understand and you won't have to repeat yourself?

First to be raised up from among the dead… So in all things jesus assumes the primary position - the supremacy. You purposefully misquoted the scriptures hoping I wouldn’t notice!!!???

No one has ascended up into Heaven except he that first descended into the grave… namely, the Son of man who is in Heaven…

The first BIRTH is subject to sin….
The second (rebirth) is Spiritual…
For indeed the Spirit did not come first but the flesh, and then afterwards the Spiritual!!

Yes to all these scripture.... but when is he the firstborn (not second born) among the dead?

It doesn't say "first birth" and "second birth"... is it when he, as you quoted, ascended up into Heaven as the firstborn among the dead and received His title of King of kings and Lord of Lords so that every name may bow to that name?"

and can you please quote scripture correctly?

1 Corinthians 15:45-47​

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

Adam was the first subject to sin... the second, Jesus, was the spiritual... It wasn't about Jesus' birth with Mary as "firstborn".

 

[Soapy]

How can I misquote a quote? I'm doing this because you haven't explained it. If you explained things better, maybe people would understand and you won't have to repeat yourself?


Yes to all these scripture.... but when is he the firstborn (not second born) among the dead?

It doesn't say "first birth" and "second birth"... is it when he, as you quoted, ascended up into Heaven as the firstborn among the dead and received His title of King of kings and Lord of Lords so that every name may bow to that name?"

and can you please quote scripture correctly?

1 Corinthians 15:45-47​

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

Adam was the first subject to sin... the second, Jesus, was the spiritual... It wasn't about Jesus' birth with Mary as "firstborn".

Kenny, you are being deliberately deceptive. You fully understand what I’m saying to you. Your objections are not in line with what I’m showing you. You just add something inconsistent and claim against what I said.

There is no such thing as ‘Firstborn among the dead’… it is ‘First born FROM the dead’… the first to be raised up from the dead.

‘First birth’… natural birth from the womb of a woman.
‘Second birth’… the REBIRTH (Reborn) as Jesus stated to Nicodemus… is Spiritual.

This is easily understandable unless you are doing the same as Nicodemus in not understanding!

But you are slowly moving away from what I showed you… I notice that this is common deception in debates with Trinitarians. Why not just accept the truth rather than try to squirm away from it - it’s shows that trinitarian ideology is so false it cannot even accept correction.

Truly this is what Jesus said about ‘Grieving the Spirit of God’!

The FIRST sinned and brought sin to all mankind - The SECOND did not sin and brought salvation to all mankind.

Look back through the list of patriarchs - the first sinned but another was made to provide a lineage to the saviour messiah. What do you not understand from that.

Adam, the first to be born of God…(the sinful - fleshly)
Jesus Christ, the first to be REBORN of God (the sinless - spiritual)

 

[Kenny]

There is no such thing as ‘Firstborn among the dead’… it is ‘First born FROM the dead’… the first to be raised up from the dead.

I'm sorry... typo. My first post had it correctly.

He is still the firstborn... so I'm still understanding correctly. And, yes, he is the first reborn (spiritually) which is what God was referring to as the "firstborn" in His word.

You are welcome to believe differently.

 

[Soapy]

I'm sorry... typo. My first post had it correctly.

He is still the firstborn... so I'm still understanding correctly. And, yes, he is the first reborn (spiritually) which is what God was referring to as the "firstborn" in His word.

You are welcome to believe differently.

Sounds like you are finally seeing the light.

Yes, ‘first born’ from the dead.

Yes, Jesus is ‘FIRSTBORN’ of God which means:

• ‘The most beloved [of the Father]’

‘Israel’, God said, was His FIRSTBORN…

Which of the two do you understand as stating that:

1. ‘Israel was God’s first birthed nation’
2. ‘Israel is God’s most beloved nation’

((Context: There were many nations in the world before God established the Israelite nation. God chose out of all these nations one whom he LOVED THE MOST. It could even be said: ‘Here is my nation; my chosen one; in whom I am well pleased’))