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God VS Evil
- Thread starter Nefelie
- Start date
Demonslayer
Well-Known Member
I believe the true God gives his intelligent creatures the gift of free will. He does not make us robots, unable to do what we choose. So the correct question would be:
Is God able but not willing to create robots that cannot serve him out of love? Yes, because God is a loving Father, not a puppet master.
Nefelie
Member
Then, how?
I believe that as people created by God, we are accountable to him for what we do. Christians are not authorized to harm anyone. (Matthew 5:43-45) The nation of Israel was authorized to wage war against God's enemies. They themselves came under God's judgment when they turned to worshipping false gods.
RabbiO
הרב יונה בן זכריה
As to our inclination -
רבי נחמן בר שמואל בר נחמן בשם רב שמואל בר נחמן אמר הנה טוב מאד זה יצר טוב והנה טוב מאד זה יצר רע, כי יצר הרע טוב מאד, אתמהא, אלא שאלולי יצר הרע לא בנה אדם בית ולא נשא אשה, ולא הוליד ולאו נשא ונתן
Tumah
Veteran Member
I was thinking about that, but I think he's talking about phenomena rather than free will.
Neo Deist
Th.D. & D.Div. h.c.
I can't speak for other people, just myself.
I do not believe in miracles or divine intervention (that is a part of deism). If God gave us free will (which is my belief) then we make our own choices and suffer the consequences, whether they are good or bad. If God intervened, then it would no longer be free will. I can't imagine a creator deity giving us life, but then treating us like a bunch of automatons that are subject to Its whims/mood swings/pride/jealousy. Are we nothing more than ants on an anthill, waiting to see if God is going to use a magnifying glass on us in an attempt to burn us with the sun's rays, because It has nothing better to do? The universe is a vast place, and I doubt God is overly concerned what one, tiny, mud ball of a planet has going on.
I have yet to see or hear about a true, divine miracle. Don't bother linking any stories as I have probably read them. I remain skeptical.
Luciferi Baphomet
Lucifer, is my Liberator
I don't believe in miracles either. I was just curious.
If Epicurus is asking a question but unable to dialogue? Then he is unreal.
Is about how I understand such nonsense.
For those that subscribe to such rhetoric and think it warrants discussion, then please discuss this thing called evil. Don't be shy.
Well, it'd certainly be helpful to have an operational definition of "evil." Not that this would help me address the OP, though. The moment I ran into the word "God" my brain went "what?" and then when it hit the word "evil" it went "really?" - then made its way to "oh... another one of these problem of evil arguments that doesn't apply to my theology. Okay."
I have a hard time wrapping my head around the idea that just because an entity of some sort (lightning, the sun, the wind, Athena, etc.) is not the ultimate, maximum, universal, etc., it should not be granted any acknowledgment, respect, honor, etc....I guess I no longer see things as either/or along that continuum...there are lots of things that are bigger/more powerful/awesome/etc., than me, and if someone wants to classify them as deities I don't see a problem...Sure they aren't the ultimate; so what?
As for "evil," I no longer get that, either. Yes, I understand several worldviews that include categories of "good" and "evil," but it really boils down to "this is good within this model of reality, and this other stuff is bad within that same model." And models are sometimes very different. Are there things that are indifferent or that cause bad things to happen to humans? Of course! Do humans do bad things to each other and to others? Of course! Is any of that "evil?" Some humans and their religions focus too much on perfection, being "clean," being "holy," on the "ultimate," etc., at least in my opinion. "Evil" in that sense doesn't make sense to me, just as "perfection" doesn't make sense, either.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
I have some questions for you (and comment to OP)
This is my opinion please don't take offense and I do look for an answer
1. How are you a robot (if that means no free will) if there is no evil and you can still choose to worship god?
Your choices will come by means of how you want to worship him not battling with yourself with which ways are right and which ways are wrong to worship.
It's more beneficial for believers not to have free will. To me, that sounds like keeping ego (trying to preserve one's own decision) rather than submitting or worshiping in full by giving yourself in full to god, your decisions included.
It's more beneficial for believers not to have free will. To me, that sounds like keeping ego (trying to preserve one's own decision) rather than submitting or worshiping in full by giving yourself in full to god, your decisions included.
2. How would god be a puppet master if your choices were how to worship him rather than battling what are the right or wrong ways to worship him? (rephrased above question. A little more clearer)
As for the OP. @Nefelie
1. Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
2. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
3. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
4. Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?
2. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
3. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
4. Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?
1. True. It is a contradiction that if someone is all powerful etc and have limitations then that characteristic is absent in that person. Rursa, given an all powerful god can do anything and in the OP has limitations on what he can do, wouldn't you think that's a contradiction of god's character? How does our free will relate to god's inability to prevent evil?
2. That would make sense even though some believers feel it's necessary that evil exist for us to know good and bad. Rursa, given if that is so, wouldn't you think it off even from god to allow evil? What does evil actually mean to you? If everything from god is good, than there is no such thing as evil-even killing by people is not evil because we need it (as so some believers say) to obtain and keep our free will. It's a catch-22. Also, that makes the devil's work somewhat pointless.
3. If god is able to prevent evil and is willing, evil can supposedly still exist because these two traits doesn't mean he chooses to do anything about evil that exists. If we need free will so we won't be robots (which doesn't make sense), then, Rusra, isn't that like saying evil is not evil but good? Why call it evil if it serves a good purpose? I mean, evil, to me though I don't use the word, isn't good. That's contradictory to its definition. So, I wonder....
4. Good point OP. In my opinion, based on what I read in the Bible and other like scripture, the god a believer talks about and the god in sacred scriptures are two different gods. If they are one god, then the acts like killing permitted by god in the bible is good because it came from god. So, why would we say "thou shall not kill" when the very person a believer takes his or her guidance from did the very thing he is against. Why call someone god if they do one thing but tell their worshiper to believe something different.
Rursa, this is just my opinion. I understand "god" differently than "believers". I'd ask, though, if we had no ability to choose evil, how would that matter? If we need evil, the purpose of having it is good. If we do not, we are left with only good (which I see no problem, why do others?). Would you think it more odd to have good based on evil compared to good based on god's blessings?? How does that make one a robot by being in the presence of god and not the presence of evil? That, and why do you need evil to see god's blessings?
Then I go back to my question, why call it evil when if god didn't want us to be robots, he gave us free will to commit it?
OP, I actually think you have some good points. You can argue since god didn't literally make a human pick up a gun and shoot a someone, it's not technically his fault. On the other hand, I was talking to one member on another thread and he was saying that just having a gun there (or a snake/temptation) is enough to consider it "done."
Also, think about when Jesus said even by your thoughts you committed adultery.
So, in that sense, I wouldn't personally call someone who put all this together god. Being a creator doesn't exclude the character he has. That's like saying "because my boss is my boss, he isn't at fault when he fired me for illegal purposes (say discrimination-states)."
Rusra, what you think?
My thoughts.
Nam.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
Play along?
Do you think you can see it in the OPs shoes, though? I mean, evil isn't part of my vocabulary. I only hear it in movies, to tell you honestly. Like he's an evil vampire.
What went through my head when I thought evil was another more emphasized word for bad. Bad, another more emphasized word than wrong doing. Then, you think to yourself, okay, if there is no evil/bad then killing is just as okay as giving birth. There is no line to differences and thus, how can we consider ourselves having morals when being immoral doesn't exist?
I know we don't need opposites. For example, take the sun (ball of hot energy in the universe) and compare it to god of Christianity (yes, I know. Bare with me.)
God takes lives of people who disobey him.
The sun takes lives to people who get to close too too closest to it (think of the "cant see god's face", type of thing)
God gives blessings to those who ask for his blessings.
The sun gives us life to those who feel the need and want to continue to live (aka, don't wish to commit suicide).
If we do not disobey god, we keep our lives.
The sun keeps it's cool when we keep our distance
and so forth.
With these two opposite ends of the spectrum, we kind of know our place from thanking the gods that we are born (the earth/sun/water etc takes care of us for example) and being kind of annoyed that it rained on the very day we wanted to picnic with our families.
It's not bad to see things as good/bad and evil/blessed (or whatever the opposite is).
Another thing, maybe translate the god of Christianity to any god that you worship. Put the OP (and OPs) questions in your language and answer it like that. We understand it's not your theology, and do you think that god of abrahamics can be bad because he allows evil? Can you imagine or hypothesize the concept without needing to take it seriously?
Something that kind of picks at me when I know you have a lot more to say on these topics than our regular RF views. Maybe more of an in-depth view of how you define evil (I assume that you'e heard the word before?) if not, or it's not part of your vocab, join the club.
I just thought maybe giving it a shot and adding some depth to these old conversations would be a plus.
My thoughts.
Nam.
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FearGod
Freedom Of Mind
Why the test? we can beat the evil by wisdom and choosing the straight path, his way to us is
our mind.
Not omnipotent.
What is evil? I believe it is anything contrary to God's will or purpose. Jehovah as the Creator of all things is the ultimate authority and Decider on what is good or bad. I have no doubt that Jehovah has clearly stated what is good and what is bad, helping us to know his standard of righteousness. God is never responsible for evil, IMO, "For with evil things God cannot be tried, nor does he himself try anyone." (James 1:13) Evil comes from allowing our desire for what is bad grow, rather than dismissing such desires. (James 1:14,15) A robot has no option. It simply does what it is programmed to do. I believe since we were created in God's image, God has endowed us with a conscience and the ability to make moral choices. This means God gave us the ability to choose the course we will follow. Adam and Eve chose badly. What choice we make will determine our destiny, IMO. (Deuteronomy 30:19)
Demonslayer
Well-Known Member
Isaiah 45:7 respectfully disagrees.
(Isaiah 45:7, KJV) - "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."
Sleeppy
Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
The name revealed to Moses is sufficient here.
I Am That I Am; I Will Be What I Will Be; I Am.
In other words. The truth is evident. There's no real need to resort to mental gymnastics. If evil is prevented, it is God's will. If evil is not prevented, it is God's will. If it becomes that evil is subdued, it is God's will. If it becomes that evil is not subdued, it is God's will.
This is a fearful thing for people to consider. This is the fear of God. It accompanies the utmost reverence that any being can achieve: to know that there is a Most High, and that though we call ourselves gods, believing in self-creation/self-will, there are no gods beside Him.
I Am That I Am; I Will Be What I Will Be; I Am.
In other words. The truth is evident. There's no real need to resort to mental gymnastics. If evil is prevented, it is God's will. If evil is not prevented, it is God's will. If it becomes that evil is subdued, it is God's will. If it becomes that evil is not subdued, it is God's will.
This is a fearful thing for people to consider. This is the fear of God. It accompanies the utmost reverence that any being can achieve: to know that there is a Most High, and that though we call ourselves gods, believing in self-creation/self-will, there are no gods beside Him.