God vs. Scientists

[Enoch07]

I could be wrong about this, but isn't wiping out the first born of Egypt something you folks gave god credit for? I'm still not seeing how you got "and claim that religion is responsible for evil" from that given the context his post was given in.

Yes an important part was left out of his spoof. In the real story God told them what they had to do in order to save the firstborn. Refusal comes at the price of the firstborn. He twisted the story into God just killing because He felt like it, which is not the true story.

 

[Smoke]

Actually Christianity is not the driving factor in the case of Nazis. There is evidence in this thread http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...s/28483-why-i-hate-hate-hate-religion-26.html proving that. So your answer not only shows your bias but is also factually incorrect.

Answer me this, then: If Hitler was not a Christian, and in fact hated Christianity, why did he use Christian propaganda to sway the masses? I didn't say Christianity was the motive behind Nazism; I said that the Nazis were able to use Christianity.

I am not. I was just pointing out people like Smoke who are biased against religion, and claim that religion is responsible for evil, are just as wrong as someone saying science is evil for for killing all those people in Hiroshima.

You're wrong on at least two counts. I'm not biased against religion; I just dislike certain religions -- and I dislike them mostly because of the way they teach their followers to behave. I also don't say religion is responsible for evil; I say there are many cases in which certain religions are responsible for particular evils.

 

[Smoke]

Yes an important part was left out of his spoof. In the real story God told them what they had to do in order to save the firstborn. Refusal comes at the price of the firstborn.

He didn't tell the Egyptians.

 

[Enoch07]

Answer me this, then: If Hitler was not a Christian, and in fact hated Christianity, why did he use Christian propaganda to sway the masses? I didn't say Christianity was the motive behind Nazism; I said that the Nazis were able to use Christianity.

I know you did not. You said even worse. You said.

Therefore, when (as in the Inquisition) Christian teaching moves people to do evil, or when (as in the case of the Nazis) Christianity is used to convince people to do evil, it tends to undermine the claims of Christianity. There is no such conflict when people use science to do evil.

If your not biased how come you accused Christianity when you did not know the full facts? Either you was wrong in your assumptions or your biased, which do you want it to be?

Yes Hitler used Christianity in the same way Osama uses Islam to justify his actions. Both are evil men parading around falsely using religion to shield their true motives. Wise men/women can see the difference between a true Christian/Muslim and someone pretending to be for acquisition of power i.e. Hitler/Osama.

 

[Smoke]

I know you did not. You said even worse. You said.



If your not biased how come you accused Christianity when you did not know the full facts? Either you was wrong in your assumptions or your biased, which do you want it to be?

Yes Hitler used Christianity in the same way Osama uses Islam to justify his actions. Both are evil men parading around falsely using religion to shield their true motives. Wise men/women can see the difference between a true Christian/Muslim and someone pretending to be for acquisition of power i.e. Hitler/Osama.

I gave two different examples in the sentence you quoted. You are confusing the first with the second.

And I didn't say that I wasn't biased against Christianity, either. I am biased against Christianity -- or at least, I dislike it. Christians have done a great deal to earn that. I said I was not biased against religion. There are plenty of religions other than Christianity.

 

[themadhair]

He twisted the story into God just killing because He felt like it, which is not the true story.

When people try to justify actions like this they scare me. It is thinking like this that make me astonished some people thing religion and morality have anything to do with each other.

Epicurus’ argument still stands after 2,270 years:

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?

 

[Smoke]

When people try to justify actions like this they scare me. It is thinking like this that make me astonished some people thing religion and morality have anything to do with each other.

I find it a little surprising that people believe it's a factual story at all. It does get a little scary when they try to justify God's actions ("God told them what they had to do in order to save the firstborn"), especially since the Lord says:

Go in unto Pharaoh: for I have hardened his heart, and the heart of his servants, that I might shew these my signs before him: and that thou mayest tell in the ears of thy son, and of thy son's son, what things I have wrought in Egypt, and my signs which I have done among them; that ye may know how that I am the LORD.​

 

[Enoch07]

When people try to justify actions like this they scare me. It is thinking like this that make me astonished some people thing religion and morality have anything to do with each other.

Epicurus’ argument still stands after 2,270 years:

Quote:
The Riddle of Epicurus

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

Line 1 Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? God is able if He wanted to, but in order for free will to work there has to be evil allowed.
Line 2 Is He able, but not willing? Yes He is Omnipotent, its called free will, if He did it would be interfering with free will.
Line 3 Is He both able and willing? Same as line 2 answer.
Line 4 Is He neither able nor willing? Same as line 2 answer.

This riddle is the whiniest thing I ever read. Oh God allows this to happen, God allows that to happen boo-hoo-hoo. Anyone that believes this way needs to grow up, and toughen up. The world is harsh place and has no room for complainers who do nothing but sit around whining about how God does not give them life on a silver platter.

Nice I destroyed a 2300 year old philosophy in 10 mins.

 

[Enoch07]

I find it a little surprising that people believe it's a factual story at all. It does get a little scary when they try to justify God's actions ("God told them what they had to do in order to save the firstborn"), especially since the Lord says:

Go in unto Pharaoh: for I have hardened his heart, and the heart of his servants, that I might shew these my signs before him: and that thou mayest tell in the ears of thy son, and of thy son's son, what things I have wrought in Egypt, and my signs which I have done among them; that ye may know how that I am the LORD.​

What was the Egyptians doing at that time? They had the Jews enslaved. You would feel sorry for slavers? From someone who supports equal rights so vigorously it is awful shameful you feel sorry for the Egyptians.

 

[Smoke]

Wrong story

No, it's not.

 

[Smoke]

What was the Egyptians doing at that time? They had the Jews enslaved. You would feel sorry for slavers?

I think God Almighty could have contrived some way of freeing the slaves without going out of his way to kill the children of the slaveholders. He says plainly that he did it just to show off and impress people.

 

[Enoch07]

That was a mess up on my part. Got too much going on here. 8p Corrected it with statement I meant to ask you.

 

[themadhair]

Line 2 Is He able, but not willing? Yes He is Omnipotent, its called free will, if He did it would be interfering with free will.
Line 3 Is He both able and willing? Same as line 2 answer.
Line 4 Is He neither able nor willing? Same as line 2 answer.

So malevolent then. Trying to dress it in free will doesn’t work Enoch07 because the concept of free will is not compatible with an omnipotent creator god. If an omnipotent god were to create a person it is also, due to its omnipotence, is determining all that persons future actions in that act of creation. I’ve heard some outrageous mental gymnastics being performed on this one but never heard a decent defence of it.

The bit I don’t get though is why you do not see how sickeningly ******* disgusting it is to try and justify an action like wiping out the first borns of a nation. I suppose those first borns didn’t exercise their free will correctly? [/quote]

 

[Enoch07]

I think God Almighty could have contrived some way of freeing the slaves without going out of his way to kill the children of the slaveholders. He says plainly that he did it just to show off and impress people.

There is a poster in the tattoo shop I go to. Is blasphemous of course but it does not beat around the bush. Showed a close up of Gods face and He looked pretty ticked. With the headline "Don't ---- with the Lord!". No need to say more.

 

[rojse]

Quote:
The Riddle of Epicurus

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

Line 1 Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? God is able if He wanted to, but in order for free will to work there has to be evil allowed.
Line 2 Is He able, but not willing? Yes He is Omnipotent, its called free will, if He did it would be interfering with free will.
Line 3 Is He both able and willing? Same as line 2 answer.
Line 4 Is He neither able nor willing? Same as line 2 answer.

This riddle is the whiniest thing I ever read. Oh God allows this to happen, God allows that to happen boo-hoo-hoo. Anyone that believes this way needs to grow up, and toughen up. The world is harsh place and has no room for complainers who do nothing but sit around whining about how God does not give them life on a silver platter.

Nice I destroyed a 2300 year old philosophy in 10 mins.

Please go here if you want to debate the presumption of God's benevolence:

http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...ates/69051-why-do-most-people-assume-god.html

 

[Enoch07]

So malevolent then. Trying to dress it in free will doesn’t work Enoch07 because the concept of free will is not compatible with an omnipotent creator god. If an omnipotent god were to create a person it is also, due to its omnipotence, is determining all that persons future actions in that act of creation. I’ve heard some outrageous mental gymnastics being performed on this one but never heard a decent defence of it.

The bit I don’t get though is why you do not see how sickeningly ******* disgusting it is to try and justify an action like wiping out the first borns of a nation. I suppose those first borns didn’t exercise their free will correctly?

You can think that, but truth is God is omnipotent and free will does exist. Deal with it. God has the right to take us anytime He chooses. Whether its 1 day old or 120 years old. It is His right.

 

[Smoke]

There is a poster in the tattoo shop I go to. Is blasphemous of course but it does not beat around the bush. Showed a close up of Gods face and He looked pretty ticked. With the headline "Don't ---- with the Lord!". No need to say more.

Exactly. God is a vicious tyrant. I'm surprised that doesn't bother people who think he's a real being.

 

[Enoch07]

Exactly. God is a vicious tyrant. I'm surprised that doesn't bother people who think he's a real being.

Haha yah your biased. Its called humility. Everyone on this earth, in this day and age, could use a huge healthy dose of it. Too many superegos running around thinking they are better than everyone else.

 

[rojse]

Exactly. God is a vicious tyrant. I'm surprised that doesn't bother people who think he's a real being.

Haha yah your biased. Its called humility. Everyone on this earth, in this day and age, could use a huge healthy dose of it. Too many superegos running around thinking they are better than everyone else.

Can you please debate this elsewhere?

 

[Smoke]

Can you please debate this elsewhere?

Then I'll have to debate a more complex and subtle god than Enoch's.