sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
The Bible doesn’t interpret itself. That you think it does is ample proof that you don’t understand the nature of the texts you’re abusing.
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God's Israel in the new testament who is it *Romans 9:6-8
- Thread starter 3rdAngel
- Start date
Good-Ole-Rebel
*banned*
Well, go back and read post #(53). If you didn't see any it is because you didn't want to.
Though Paul is writing to Gentile believers in Rome, the subject matter of (Rom. 9-11) is Israel. It is not 'spiritual Israel', meaning the Church as you define it. It is Israel, the descendants of Jacob. Just as I showed you already. (Rom. 9:3-4) "For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: Who are Israelites....."
Concerning (Rom. 9:6-8):
1.) vs (6) I agree. "they are not all Israel, which are of Israel" But that doesn't mean Gentile believers become Israel. It means those believing Jews that are of Israel make up Israel.
2.) vs(7) I agree. "Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called." Just because a Jew can trace their genealogy back to Abraham doesn't equate to being the people of God. Only in Isaac is the seed called. Again, it doesn't mean Gentile believers become Israel.
3.) vs(8) I agree. "...They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed." But the children of the flesh as opposed to children of God are what is addressed. In order for a Jew to be a true Israelite, he must be a child of promise as was Isaac. Other wise, he is just a child of the flesh, even though that flesh is Jewish.
Without a doubt, we who are Gentile believers, must also be children of promise. But, that makes us part of the Church. Not Israel. We are not 'spiritual Israel'. We are the Church.
Concerning (Heb. 8:10), the house of Israel is just that, the house of Israel. Not the Church. The book of Hebrews is written by Paul to the Jewish believers.
Concerning (Rom. 11:13-25), Israel are branches. Gentiles are branches. Gentiles are not grafted into Israel, which is but other branches. Gentiles are grafted into the tree, the root, which is the Abrahamic Covenant. Just like Israel is a branch from the Abrahamic Covenant.
As I said before, your redefining Israel as the Church is not support that it is so.
Good-Ole-Rebel
3rdAngel
Well-Known Member
Sure it does. I believe you do not know this because you do not know Gods Word.
3rdAngel
Well-Known Member
In post # 53 you quoted scripture but the scriptures you provided have nothing to do with the new covenants definition of who God's ISRAEL are and nothing to do with the OP in the new testament. Me saying earlier you did not provide any scripture for your claims was in reference to your claims that ISRAEL is not God's Church. Your claims are not biblical.
Your simply repeating yourself here my friend while ignoring the context of the message to the Gentile believers. Paul is stating in v1-4 to Gentile beleivers that he has heaviness of heart because of those JEWS who did not believe JESUS was the promised Messiah v5-6 but then goes on to state to the Gentiles who God's true ISRAEL is...
ROMANS 9:6-8 [6], Not as though the word of God has taken none effect. FOR THEY ARE NOT ALL ISRAEL, WHICH ARE OF ISRAEL: [7], NEITHER, BECAUSE THEY ARE THE SEED OF ABRAHAM, ARE THEY ALL CHILDREN: but, In Isaac shall your seed be called. [8], THAT IS, THEY WHICH ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE FLESH, THESE ARE NOT THE CHILDREN OF GOD: BUT THE CHILDREN OF THE PROMISE ARE COUNTED FOR THE SEED.
The children of the promise are counted for the seed. That is God's ISREAL wheather JEW or GENTILE are all those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's Word.
In CONTEXT Paul is stating in v6 that not everyone that claims to be of ISRAEAL are ISRAEL. This is further made clear in v7-8 Paul is saying just because someone is born an ISRAELITE in the FLESH does not make them one in God's eye "neither because they are the seed (born) of Abraham are they all the Children (of Abraham). v8 That is they which are the children of the flesh (physical ISRAEAL) these are NOT THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL. BUT THE CHILDREN OF THE PROMISE ARE COUNTED FOR THE SEED. That is those who believe and follow God's Word. Sorry my friend God's Word disagrees with you.
According to the scriptures I believe that the book of HEBREWS is written for all of God's people who are now God's ISRAEL according to the new testament scriptures (all those who believe and follow God's Word). Gentiles are now grafted in my faith (the new covenant promise). ISRAEL is only a name given by God to all those who believe and follow God's Word. If you are not a part of God's ISRAEAL then you have no part in the new covenant promise of a new heart to love. You do know that HEBREWS 8:10-12 is the new covenant promise right? If you are not a part of God's ISRAEAL which is defined in the new testament scriptures as all those who believe and follow God's Word, you have no part in the new covenant promise *HEBREWS 8:10-12. Gentiles are now grafted in *ROMANS 11:13-27.
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sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
No. It doesn’t. None of the texts is intuitive. But that’s ok — you go on ahead and believe that if it makes you feel better. No one could talk sense into Sodom either.
moorea944
Well-Known Member
Actually, the bible does interpret it's self......
Good-Ole-Rebel
*banned*
No, your claim in post #(54) was that I provided no Scripture to support my claims. Which I did. And two of those were in reference to Israel not being the Church of Jesus Christ. (Gal. 6:16) (Rom. 11:5)
Yes I am repeating myself because you are not listening. And you're ignoring (Rom. 9:3-4). "For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen, according to the flesh: Who are Israelites...." It cannot be more clearly stated that it is physical Israel that Paul is speaking of here.
Concerning (Rom. 9:6-8): You are adding "That is God's Israel whether Jew or Gentile", It is not there in the verses. Again, the children of promise who are Jews, make up the remnant or the Israel of God. But the Gentiles who are children of promise are the Church. They do not become Jews or the 'spiritual Israel'.
You say 'in CONTEXT', yet ignore the context. The context is laid out in (Rom. 9:3-4). "my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: Who are Israelites"
You want to say the book of (Romans) is written to the Gentiles. But now you want to say the book of (Hebrews) is written for all God's people. Terrible inconsistency. The book of (Romans) is for all God's people also. But that doesn't change the fact that the subject matter of (Rom. 9-11) is physical Israel. Same is true with the book of (Hebrews). It is written to Jewish believers but it is for all of God's people. So, just because it is for all God's people, doesn't make the house of Israel in (Heb. 10:8) refer to Gentiles. It is to the Jews only as the author is writing to the Jews.
Concerning (Rom. 11:13-27), I have already told you, the Gentiles are not grafted into Israel. Gentiles and Israel both are branches. Israel the natural branch. Gentiles the wild branch. We are grafted into the Abrahamic Covenant. Not Israel. The Church is not 'spiritual Israel'.
Israel is not 'just a name given to believers'. How silly. There were multitudes of believers prior to Israel. They are not Israel either. During the Tribulation period there will be believers who are not part of the believing Israel of the Jews. To be of Israel in God's sight, you must be of both physical and spiritual origin.
Good-Ole-Rebel
3rdAngel
Well-Known Member
Perhaps you misunderstood what I was saying or I did not explain myself well enough. As posted earlier me saying you have posted no scripture was in reference to your claims that ISRAEL is not the Church. You still have provided no scripture to support this claim.
Not really I have indeed listened to everything you have said understand what you were trying to say, and responded section by section with scripture showing why I believe your claims are in error. You are only repeating yourself without addressing my posts. Yes your replying to my posts but not addressing them. I did not ignore ROMANS 9:3-4 addressed it in detail looking at all the context you ignored in ROMANS 9:1-8. See post # 58 and post # 64 linked. Your ignoring the context. The book of Romans is to GENTILE BELIEVERS and Paul is stating in v1-4 to Gentile beleivers that he has heaviness of heart because of those JEWS who did not believe JESUS was the promised Messiah v5-6 but then goes on to state to the Gentiles who God's true ISRAEL is...
ROMANS 9:6-8 [6], Not as though the word of God has taken none effect. FOR THEY ARE NOT ALL ISRAEL, WHICH ARE OF ISRAEL: [7], NEITHER, BECAUSE THEY ARE THE SEED OF ABRAHAM, ARE THEY ALL CHILDREN: but, In Isaac shall your seed be called. [8], THAT IS, THEY WHICH ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE FLESH, THESE ARE NOT THE CHILDREN OF GOD: BUT THE CHILDREN OF THE PROMISE ARE COUNTED FOR THE SEED.
The children of the promise are counted for the seed. That is God's ISREAL wheather JEW or GENTILE are all those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's Word.
to be continued...
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3rdAngel
Well-Known Member
Not really. Your confused dear brother. I did not add anything. All your post shows me here is that you have not even read or considered the scriptures in the OP have you.
Here let's add the other scriptures back in "wheather Jew or Gentile"...
GOD'S ISRAEL ARE ALL THOSE WHO BELIEVE AND FOLLOW GOD'S WORD (The Church)
There is no such thing as Jew or Greek anymore. All who believe and follow God's Word are one in Christ. Israel in the OLD COVENANT were those from the seed of Abraham. In the NEW COVENANT, if you are in Christ then you are Abrahams seed and heirs according to the promise...
EPHESIANS 2:11-13 [11], Why remember, that you being in TIME PAST Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;[12], That AT THAT TIME [in the Past] YOU WERE WITHOUT CHRIST, BEING ALIENS FROM THE COMMONWEALTH OF ISRAEL, STRANGERS FROM THE COVENANT OF PROMISE, HAVING NO HOPE, AND WITHOUT GOD IN THE WORLD: [13], BUT NOW IN CHRIST JESUS, YOU WHO WERE FAR OFF ARE MADE NEAR BY THE BLOOD OF CHRIST.
GALATIANS 3:28-29 [28], THERE IS NEITHER JEW NOR GREEK, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: FOR YOU ALL ONE IN CHRIST JESUS AND IF YOU BE CHRISTS, THEN YOU ARE ABRAHAM'S SEED FOR YOU ARE ALL ONE IN CHRIST JESUS [29], and IF YOU BE CHRISTS, THEN ARE YOU ABRAHAM'S SEED, AND HEIRS ACCORDING TO THE PROMISE.
God's true ISRAEL in the NEW COVENANT are not by name only but all those in Christ. Those of the FLESH (sinful human nature) are not Abrahams seed but those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God in Christ are God's ISRAEL...
ROMANS 9:6-8 [6], FOR THEY ARE NOT ALL ISRAEL WHICH ARE OF ISRAEL,: [7], NEITHER, BECAUSE THEY ARE THE SEED OF ABRAHAM, ARE THEY ALL CHILDREN: but in Isaac shall thy seed be called <Christ> [8], That is, THEY WHICH ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE FLESH, THESE ARE NOT THE CHILDREN OF GOD: BUT THE CHILDREN OF THE PROMISE <those who believe> ARE COUNTED FOR THE SEED.
God's ISRAEL are all those in CHRIST that have been given a NEW HEART according to the NEW COVENANT promise...
ROMANS 2:28-29 [28], FOR HE IS NOT A JEW WHICH IS ONE OUTWARDLY; NEITHER IS THAT CIRCUMCISION, WHICH IS OUTWARDS IN THE FLESH: [29], BUT HE IS A JEW WHICH IS ONE INWARDLY; and CIRCUMCISION IS OF THE HEART, IN THE SPIRIT, AND NOT IN THE LETTER; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
In the NEW COVENANT all those in Christ are are God's ISRAEL...
COLOSSIANS 3:11 [11], WHERE THERE IS NEITHER JEW NOR GREEK circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: BUT CHRIST IS ALL IN ALL.
ROMANS 10:11-13 [11], For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. [12], FOR THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN JEW OR GREEK: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. [13], FOR WHOSOEVER SHALL CALL UPON THE NAME OF THE LORD SHALL BE SAVED.
The New Covenant is for God's Israel...
EZEKIEL 36:26-27 [26], A NEW HEART WILL I GIVE YOU, AND A NEW SPIRIT WILL I PUT WITHIN YOU; AND I WILL TAKE AWAY THE STONY HEART OUT OF YOUR FLESH, AND GIVE YOU A HEART OF FLESH. [27], AND I WILL PUT MY SPIRIT WITHIN YOU, AND CAUSE YOU TO WALK IN MY STATUTES AND YOU SHALL KEEP MY JUDGEMENTS AND DO THEM.
and again...
JEREMIAH 31:33-34 [33], BUT THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL; After those days, says the LORD, I WILL PUT MY LAW IN THEIR INWARD PARTS,AND WRITE IT IN THEIR HEARTS; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. [34], And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, says the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
Paul proclaims it here...
HEBREWS 8:10-12 [10], BUT THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL; After those days, says the LORD, I WILL PUT MY LAW IN THEIR INWARD PARTS, AND WRITE IT IN THEIR HEARTS; and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: [11], And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. [12], For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
The NEW COVENANT is for GOD'S ISRAEL which represent those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God’s WORD.
If you are not part of GOD'S ISRAEL then you are not a part of the NEW COVENANT (Hebrews 8:10-12).
............
God's ISRAEL is the name given by God to all those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW his WORD. GENTILES are now grafted in. If you are not a part of the God's ISRAEL then you have no part in the NEW COVENANT.
Now let's look at the meaning of the name that God gave to his people. The name "ISRAEL" ישׂראל; yiśrâ'êl means; "HE WILL RULE WITH GOD" God gave this name to his people and it means that they shall rule with God. Take a look at the following scriptures from REVELATION speaking of God's people.
REVELATION 1:5-6 [5], And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. To him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, [6], And HAS MADE US KINGS AND PRIESTS TO GOD AND HIS FATHER; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
and again...
REVELATION 5:10 And HAVE MADE US TO OUR GOD KINGS AND PRIESTS; AND WE SHALL REIGN ON THE EARTH.
Peter speaking of God's people says it this way...
1 PETER 2:9-10 [9], But you [God's people] are a chosen generation, A ROYAL PRIESTHOOD [KINGS AND PRIESTS], an holy nation, a peculiar people; that you should show forth the praises of him who has called you out of darkness into his marvelous light; [10], Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
Sound familar? "ISRAEL" ישׂראל; yiśrâ'êl means; "HE WILL RULE WITH GOD" WHY?
JESUS is our great HIGH PRIEST ministering on our behalf in the HEVENLY SANCTUARY *HEBREWS 4:14. JESUS is the KING of KINGS *REVELATIONS 17:14; 19:16
HE WILL RULE WITH GOD WHICH IS THE MEANING OF "ISRAEL" is the name given to all those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD because JESUS will make them to rule with him as PRIESTS and KINGS.
Notice also in REVELATION 7:3-8 just before the judgements of God are poured out on the world God's people are sealed with God's Spirit and 144,000 come out of the 12 tribes of ISRAEL
REVELATION 7:3-8 [3], Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads. [4], And I heard the number of them who were sealed: and there were sealed a hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of ISRAEL. [5], Of the tribe of JUDAH were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of REUBEN were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of GAD were sealed twelve thousand. [6], Of the tribe of ASHER were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Naphtali were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of MANESSAH were sealed twelve thousand. [7], Of the tribe of SIMEONwere sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of LEVI were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand. [8], Of the tribe of ZEBULON were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of JOSEPH were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of BENJAMIN were sealed twelve thousand.
to be continued...
3rdAngel
Well-Known Member
Actually if you follow what I am saying and the scriptures that have been provided you will see that I have been terribly consistent. My consistency is in understanding who God's ISRAEAL is and as shown in the scriptures above it is all those who believe and follow God's Word. That is God's Church. What that means is that ALL THE SCRIPTURES are given by God to those who believe and follow God's Word. There is not one set of scripture for JEWS after the FLESH and another set of scriptures only for GENTILES after the flesh as the scriptures teach...
ROMANS 2:28-29 [28], FOR HE IS NOT A JEW WHICH IS ONE OUTWARDLY; NEITHER IS THAT CIRCUMCISION, WHICH IS OUTWARDS IN THE FLESH: [29], BUT HE IS A JEW WHICH IS ONE INWARDLY; and CIRCUMCISION IS OF THE HEART, IN THE SPIRIT, AND NOT IN THE LETTER; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
COLOSSIANS 3:11 [11], WHERE THERE IS NEITHER JEW NOR GREEK circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: BUT CHRIST IS ALL IN ALL.
ROMANS 10:11-13 [11], For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. [12], FOR THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN JEW OR GREEK: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. [13], FOR WHOSOEVER SHALL CALL UPON THE NAME OF THE LORD SHALL BE SAVED.
JEW or GENTILE believe it makes no difference. According to the scriptures I believe that everyone who believes and follows God's Word have been grafted in to Christ and are God's ISRAEAL. Your version of the bible means all the Gospels and much of the New Testament is not for you. Does that make any sense?
I am sorry my friend let me know when you have scripture to prove your opinions, until then we will agree to disagree. Only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow it and you provide none to show that God's ISRAEL are not all those who believe and follow Gods Word. Yet you ignore all the scriptures provided here in these linked posts that show why you are in error....
WHO IS GOD'S ISRAEL ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES?
1. What is the origin of the name of Israel and what does it mean?
2. Who are those identified as God's Israel in the new covenant?
3. Are gentiles grafted in to God's Israel?
4. What about the nation of Israel?
5. What about the Sabbath and Israel?
What is silly to me is not believing and following God's Word and denying the scriptures that disagree with you and show why you are in error in my opinion. Guess we will have to agree to disagree as I believe only God's Word is true and we should believe and follow it over the teachings and traditions of men that break the commandments of God.
May you receive God's Word and be blessed.
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Good-Ole-Rebel
*banned*
No, I understood. There is no Scripture that says Israel is the Church of Jesus Christ. I just need to explain the verses you twist to make Israel and the Church the same.
No, you're not listening. You still ignore (Rom. 9:3-4) "my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: Who are Israelites; " Who is Paul speaking to here?
I have already explained your error in (Rom. 9:6-8). Nothing there says Israel is the Church.
Good-Ole-Rebel
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Good-Ole-Rebel
*banned*
Not really. Your confused dear brother. I did not add anything. All your post shows me here is that you have not even read or considered the scriptures in the OP have you.
Here let's add the other scriptures back in "wheather Jew or Gentile"...
GOD'S ISRAEL ARE ALL THOSE WHO BELIEVE AND FOLLOW GOD'S WORD (The Church)
There is no such thing as Jew or Greek anymore. All who believe and follow God's Word are one in Christ. Israel in the OLD COVENANT were those from the seed of Abraham. In the NEW COVENANT, if you are in Christ then you are Abrahams seed and heirs according to the promise...
EPHESIANS 2:11-13 [11], Why remember, that you being in TIME PAST Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;[12], That AT THAT TIME [in the Past] YOU WERE WITHOUT CHRIST, BEING ALIENS FROM THE COMMONWEALTH OF ISRAEL, STRANGERS FROM THE COVENANT OF PROMISE, HAVING NO HOPE, AND WITHOUT GOD IN THE WORLD: [13], BUT NOW IN CHRIST JESUS, YOU WHO WERE FAR OFF ARE MADE NEAR BY THE BLOOD OF CHRIST.
GALATIANS 3:28-29 [28], THERE IS NEITHER JEW NOR GREEK, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: FOR YOU ALL ONE IN CHRIST JESUS AND IF YOU BE CHRISTS, THEN YOU ARE ABRAHAM'S SEED FOR YOU ARE ALL ONE IN CHRIST JESUS [29], and IF YOU BE CHRISTS, THEN ARE YOU ABRAHAM'S SEED, AND HEIRS ACCORDING TO THE PROMISE.
God's true ISRAEL in the NEW COVENANT are not by name only but all those in Christ. Those of the FLESH (sinful human nature) are not Abrahams seed but those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God in Christ are God's ISRAEL...
ROMANS 9:6-8 [6], FOR THEY ARE NOT ALL ISRAEL WHICH ARE OF ISRAEL,: [7], NEITHER, BECAUSE THEY ARE THE SEED OF ABRAHAM, ARE THEY ALL CHILDREN: but in Isaac shall thy seed be called <Christ> [8], That is, THEY WHICH ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE FLESH, THESE ARE NOT THE CHILDREN OF GOD: BUT THE CHILDREN OF THE PROMISE <those who believe> ARE COUNTED FOR THE SEED.
God's ISRAEL are all those in CHRIST that have been given a NEW HEART according to the NEW COVENANT promise...
ROMANS 2:28-29 [28], FOR HE IS NOT A JEW WHICH IS ONE OUTWARDLY; NEITHER IS THAT CIRCUMCISION, WHICH IS OUTWARDS IN THE FLESH: [29], BUT HE IS A JEW WHICH IS ONE INWARDLY; and CIRCUMCISION IS OF THE HEART, IN THE SPIRIT, AND NOT IN THE LETTER; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
In the NEW COVENANT all those in Christ are are God's ISRAEL...
COLOSSIANS 3:11 [11], WHERE THERE IS NEITHER JEW NOR GREEK circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: BUT CHRIST IS ALL IN ALL.
ROMANS 10:11-13 [11], For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. [12], FOR THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN JEW OR GREEK: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. [13], FOR WHOSOEVER SHALL CALL UPON THE NAME OF THE LORD SHALL BE SAVED.
The New Covenant is for God's Israel...
EZEKIEL 36:26-27 [26], A NEW HEART WILL I GIVE YOU, AND A NEW SPIRIT WILL I PUT WITHIN YOU; AND I WILL TAKE AWAY THE STONY HEART OUT OF YOUR FLESH, AND GIVE YOU A HEART OF FLESH. [27], AND I WILL PUT MY SPIRIT WITHIN YOU, AND CAUSE YOU TO WALK IN MY STATUTES AND YOU SHALL KEEP MY JUDGEMENTS AND DO THEM.
and again...
JEREMIAH 31:33-34 [33], BUT THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL; After those days, says the LORD, I WILL PUT MY LAW IN THEIR INWARD PARTS,AND WRITE IT IN THEIR HEARTS; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. [34], And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, says the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
Paul proclaims it here...
HEBREWS 8:10-12 [10], BUT THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL; After those days, says the LORD, I WILL PUT MY LAW IN THEIR INWARD PARTS, AND WRITE IT IN THEIR HEARTS; and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: [11], And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. [12], For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
The NEW COVENANT is for GOD'S ISRAEL which represent those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God’s WORD.
If you are not part of GOD'S ISRAEL then you are not a part of the NEW COVENANT (Hebrews 8:10-12).
............
God's ISRAEL is the name given by God to all those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW his WORD. GENTILES are now grafted in. If you are not a part of the God's ISRAEL then you have no part in the NEW COVENANT.
Now let's look at the meaning of the name that God gave to his people. The name "ISRAEL" ישׂראל; yiśrâ'êl means; "HE WILL RULE WITH GOD" God gave this name to his people and it means that they shall rule with God. Take a look at the following scriptures from REVELATION speaking of God's people.
REVELATION 1:5-6 [5], And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. To him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, [6], And HAS MADE US KINGS AND PRIESTS TO GOD AND HIS FATHER; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
and again...
REVELATION 5:10 And HAVE MADE US TO OUR GOD KINGS AND PRIESTS; AND WE SHALL REIGN ON THE EARTH.
Peter speaking of God's people says it this way...
1 PETER 2:9-10 [9], But you [God's people] are a chosen generation, A ROYAL PRIESTHOOD [KINGS AND PRIESTS], an holy nation, a peculiar people; that you should show forth the praises of him who has called you out of darkness into his marvelous light; [10], Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
Sound familar? "ISRAEL" ישׂראל; yiśrâ'êl means; "HE WILL RULE WITH GOD" WHY?
JESUS is our great HIGH PRIEST ministering on our behalf in the HEVENLY SANCTUARY *HEBREWS 4:14. JESUS is the KING of KINGS *REVELATIONS 17:14; 19:16
HE WILL RULE WITH GOD WHICH IS THE MEANING OF "ISRAEL" is the name given to all those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD because JESUS will make them to rule with him as PRIESTS and KINGS.
Notice also in REVELATION 7:3-8 just before the judgements of God are poured out on the world God's people are sealed with God's Spirit and 144,000 come out of the 12 tribes of ISRAEL
REVELATION 7:3-8 [3], Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads. [4], And I heard the number of them who were sealed: and there were sealed a hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of ISRAEL. [5], Of the tribe of JUDAH were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of REUBEN were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of GAD were sealed twelve thousand. [6], Of the tribe of ASHER were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Naphtali were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of MANESSAH were sealed twelve thousand. [7], Of the tribe of SIMEONwere sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of LEVI were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand. [8], Of the tribe of ZEBULON were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of JOSEPH were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of BENJAMIN were sealed twelve thousand.
to be continued...
Yes, you added 'that is God's Israel whether Jew or Gentile'.
(Eph: 2:11-13) is true. But nothing there saying the Church and Israel are the same.
(Gal. 3:28-29) is true. But nothing there saying the Church is God's Israel.
(Rom. 9:6-8) is true...again. But nothing there indicating that the Church is Israel.
(Rom. 2:28-29) is true. It describes the Jew. It doesn't describe the Gentile who believes.
(Eze. 36:26-27) and (Jer. 31:33-34) is true. It describes the new birth to Israel. A yet unfulfilled promise for a future day. Doesn't mean the Church is Israel.
(Heb. 8:10-12) Yes, the New Covenant is for Israel. It is yet to be fulfilled for Israel, but it will be. At present the Church is experiencing the blessings of that Covenant. But Israel will also later. See (Jer. 31:31) Just because Israel is not experiencing their blessings under that Covenant, doesn't mean the Church is Israel.
No, God did not give the name Israel to all who believe. And (Rev. 1:5-6) is to the Church of Jesus Christ. See (Rev. 1:4). CONTEXT. (Rev. 5:10) is determined on how one interprets the 24 elders. But however you interpret it, it doesn't prove that the Church is Israel.
Yes, (1 Pet. 2:9-10) sounds familiar. It describes all who make up the Church, both Jew and Gentile. Strange isn't it? You want to say all are Israel who believe. But instead, it is all who believe at this time are the Church. You have it just backwards.
The 144,000 are Jews, 12,000 from each tribe.
Good-Ole-Rebel
Good-Ole-Rebel
*banned*
(Col. 3:11) speaks of the Church, not Israel. You have it just backwards.
(Rom. 10:11-13) shows that the method of salvation is the same for both Jew and Greek. That doesn't make the Church Israel.
The Scriptures you pervert prove my opinions. They do not say what you are trying to make them say. All I need to do is show you are in error in your manipulation of these verses.
I agree that you are wrong in your attempt to make the Church and Israel the same body of believers.
Good-Ole-Rebel
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
I disagree. With differences in language and culture, and the chasm of time between the writings and now, and given the multivalent nature of the texts, no. They cannot “interpret themselves.” If that were the case, there’d be no need for Talmud.
moorea944
Well-Known Member
I disagree. Scripture does interpret it's self. I"ll give an example. If your reading something and dont understand it, it will explain it's self somewhere else. Scripture is consistent all through the bible. And it does interpret it's self, even if we dont understand things.
Plus, there is not much difference in the writings from then to now. We saw that in the dead sea scrolls. But yes, there are translation errors. We have "trinitarian doctrines" put into scripture, we also have words like "Lucifer" that was "put into" our bibles. Lucifer is a Latin word in a Hebrew bible before there was Latin words?.... Really? Just to mention a few..... But I think we're talking about to different things here too.
And what does the Talmud have to do with anything. You have to remember that the Jews also changed things up too. Secondly, why do you even think that we (gentiles) now have salvation?..... hmmmmmm
sojourner
Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
That’s not an example, it’s a belief. Please provide a text we can’t understand and then provide the “explaining” text.
No it’s not. There are gross differences just between the gospels.
Examples?
But there is much difference in the early redactions.
Where? Chapter and verse plz.
Examples? Again, chapter and verse. You’re aware of the translational problem, yes?
It’s a time-honored commentary that interprets the texts. Why even have it if the texts “interpret themselves?”
This isn’t pertinent to the topic.
moorea944
Well-Known Member
Scripture is consistent all through scripture. The gospel and God's message does not change.
[Please provide a text we can’t understand and then provide the “explaining” text. ]
Shouldnt you be providing that? It seams like your having a hard time understanding things....
3rdAngel
Well-Known Member
Sure there is your just playing word games. There is no Hebrew word for Church in the bible it is a word only found in the new testament scriptures. The GREEK word ἐκκλησία; ekklēsia (G1577) means a calling out, a religious congregation Jewish synagogue, or Christian community: - assembly. JEUSUS says where two or three are gathered together there I am in the midst of them *MATTHEW 18:20. God's Church are therefore all those who believe and follow God's Word the same as the Hebrew word ISRAEAL is simply a name given by God to his people who are all those who believe and follow God's Word. They are the same as shown in the new testament scriptures that you choose to ignore..
here you go....
GALATIANS 3:28-29 [28], THERE IS NEITHER JEW NOR GREEK, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: FOR YOU ALL ONE IN CHRIST JESUS AND IF YOU BE CHRISTS, THEN YOU ARE ABRAHAM'S SEED FOR YOU ARE ALL ONE IN CHRIST JESUS [29], and IF YOU BE CHRISTS, THEN ARE YOU ABRAHAM'S SEED, AND HEIRS ACCORDING TO THE PROMISE.
EPHESIANS 2:11-13 [11], Why remember, that you being in TIME PAST Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;[12], That AT THAT TIME [in the Past] YOU WERE WITHOUT CHRIST, BEING ALIENS FROM THE COMMONWEALTH OF ISRAEL, STRANGERS FROM THE COVENANT OF PROMISE, HAVING NO HOPE, AND WITHOUT GOD IN THE WORLD: [13], BUT NOW IN CHRIST JESUS, YOU WHO WERE FAR OFF ARE MADE NEAR BY THE BLOOD OF CHRIST.
ROMANS 9:6-8 [6], Not as though the word of God has taken none effect. FOR THEY ARE NOT ALL ISRAEL, WHICH ARE OF ISRAEL: [7], NEITHER, BECAUSE THEY ARE THE SEED OF ABRAHAM, ARE THEY ALL CHILDREN: but, In Isaac shall your seed be called. [8], THAT IS, THEY WHICH ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE FLESH, THESE ARE NOT THE CHILDREN OF GOD: BUT THE CHILDREN OF THE PROMISE ARE COUNTED FOR THE SEED.
ROMANS 2:28-29 [28], FOR HE IS NOT A JEW WHICH IS ONE OUTWARDLY; NEITHER IS THAT CIRCUMCISION, WHICH IS OUTWARDS IN THE FLESH: [29], BUT HE IS A JEW WHICH IS ONE INWARDLY; and CIRCUMCISION IS OF THE HEART, IN THE SPIRIT, AND NOT IN THE LETTER; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
COLOSSIANS 3:11 [11], WHERE THERE IS NEITHER JEW NOR GREEK circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: BUT CHRIST IS ALL IN ALL.
ROMANS 10:11-13 [11], For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. [12], FOR THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN JEW OR GREEK: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. [13], FOR WHOSOEVER SHALL CALL UPON THE NAME OF THE LORD SHALL BE SAVED.
Nonsense. Your posts have been addressed section by section. It is you who is not listening and ignoring the scripture contexts. ROMANS 9:3-4 was addressed in detail looking at all the CONTEXT you ignored in ROMANS 9:1-8. See post # 58 and post # 64 linked. Your ignoring the full context. The book of Romans is to GENTILE BELIEVERS and Paul is stating in v1-4 to Gentile beleivers that he has heaviness of heart because of those JEWS (his brothers and sisters) who did not believe JESUS was the promised Messiah v5-6 but then goes on to state to the Gentiles who God's true ISRAEL is...
ROMANS 9:6-8 [6], Not as though the word of God has taken none effect. FOR THEY ARE NOT ALL ISRAEL, WHICH ARE OF ISRAEL: [7], NEITHER, BECAUSE THEY ARE THE SEED OF ABRAHAM, ARE THEY ALL CHILDREN: but, In Isaac shall your seed be called. [8], THAT IS, THEY WHICH ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE FLESH, THESE ARE NOT THE CHILDREN OF GOD: BUT THE CHILDREN OF THE PROMISE ARE COUNTED FOR THE SEED.
The children of the promise are counted for the seed. That is God's true ISREAL in the new covenant and wheather JEW or GENTILE God's ISREAL are all those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's Word.
Hope this helps
3rdAngel
Well-Known Member
Nonsense. It was said thinking you had read the OP and the scriptures in the linked posts provided. Obviously you have not even read the OP or the scriptures provided in the linked posts. I provided those scriptures in the very posts you are quoting from. I suggest you read the OP and the scriptures provided before commenting next time as it is helpful to a discussion to try and understand why people say what they do. "Wheather Jew or Gentile" = GALATIANS 3:28-29; COLOSSIANS 3:11; ROMANS 10:11-13
Repetition already addressed through the scriptures in the previous section (see previous post) showing that your just playing word games. There is no Hebrew word for Church in the bible it is a word only found in the GREEK new testament scriptures. The GREEK word ἐκκλησία; ekklēsia (G1577) means a calling out, a religious congregation Jewish synagogue, or Christian community: - assembly. JEUSUS says where two or three are gathered together there I am in the midst of them *MATTHEW 18:20. God's true Church are therefore are all those who believe and follow God's Word the same as the Hebrew word ISRAEAL is simply a name given by God to his people who believe and follow God's Word. They are the same as shown in the new testament scriptures that you choose to ignore (see GALATIANS 3:28-29; EPHESIANS 2:11-13; ROMANS 9:6-8; ROMANS 2:28-29; COLOSSIANS 3:11; ROMANS 10:11-13)
You are confused dear brother. All of God's Words are true. EZEKIEL 36:26-27; JEREMIAH 31:33-34 is the new covenant promise *HEBREWS 8:10-12; HEBREWS 10:14-20 fulfilled in Christ. Who circumcises our hearts through faith to love *ROMANS 2:28-29. My dear friend unless we are born again to love we cannot enter into God's Kingdom *JOHN 3:3-7. This is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil *1 JOHN 3:6-10 and those who have a form of godliness but denys the power thereof *2 TIMOTHY 3:5.
It is this very promise that makes us a part of God's true ISRAEL...
GALATIANS 3:28-29 [28], THERE IS NEITHER JEW NOR GREEK, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: FOR YOU ALL ONE IN CHRIST JESUS AND IF YOU BE CHRISTS, THEN YOU ARE ABRAHAM'S SEED FOR YOU ARE ALL ONE IN CHRIST JESUS [29], and IF YOU BE CHRISTS, THEN ARE YOU ABRAHAM'S SEED, AND HEIRS ACCORDING TO THE PROMISE.
EPHESIANS 2:11-13 [11], Why remember, that you being in TIME PAST Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;[12], That AT THAT TIME [in the Past] YOU WERE WITHOUT CHRIST, BEING ALIENS FROM THE COMMONWEALTH OF ISRAEL, STRANGERS FROM THE COVENANT OF PROMISE, HAVING NO HOPE, AND WITHOUT GOD IN THE WORLD: [13], BUT NOW IN CHRIST JESUS, YOU WHO WERE FAR OFF ARE MADE NEAR BY THE BLOOD OF CHRIST.
ROMANS 9:6-8 [6], Not as though the word of God has taken none effect. FOR THEY ARE NOT ALL ISRAEL, WHICH ARE OF ISRAEL: [7], NEITHER, BECAUSE THEY ARE THE SEED OF ABRAHAM, ARE THEY ALL CHILDREN: but, In Isaac shall your seed be called. [8], THAT IS, THEY WHICH ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE FLESH, THESE ARE NOT THE CHILDREN OF GOD: BUT THE CHILDREN OF THE PROMISE ARE COUNTED FOR THE SEED.
This is God's new covenant promise. To be born again with a new heart to love through faith to those who believe and follow God's Word. EZEKIEL 36:26-27; JEREMIAH 31:33-34 is the new covenant promise *HEBREWS 8:10-12; HEBREWS 10:14-20 fulfilled in Christ today to all those who believe. This is the Gospel of God's Love in those who are born again.
Hope this helps
3rdAngel
Well-Known Member
So a JEW is not a part of ISRAEL in your view? The scripture actually says there is no more JEWS and Gentiles they are all one in Christ
COLOSSIANS 3:11 [11], WHERE THERE IS NEITHER JEW NOR GREEK circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: BUT CHRIST IS ALL IN ALL.
This is because Gentiles are now grafted in *ROMANS 11:13-27.
Sure it does. It shows we are all saved wheather JEW or GENTILE in exactly the same way and we are all a part of the same Church body (ISRAEL). The scripture says... ROMANS 10:11-13 [11], For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. [12], FOR THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN JEW OR GREEK: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. [13], FOR WHOSOEVER SHALL CALL UPON THE NAME OF THE LORD SHALL BE SAVED.
Yet you have failed to do anything you have claimed here. Perhaps its time to go back and think about what you believe as it seems to me you do not even know what the new covenant promise is to all those who believe and follow God's Word. If our eyes are not open we cannot see the Garden of Eden or the paradise of God. Sin closes our eyes and makes us blind but seeking Jesus can open the blind eyes to see and the deaf to hear. JESUS says Truly, truly, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. I say unto you, except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind blows where it wants, and you hear the sound thereof, but cannot tell where it comes, and where it goes: so is every one that is born of the Spirit *JOHN 3:3-7. Whosoever is born of God does not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever does not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loves not his brother *1 JOHN 3:6-10.
May you receive this post in the Spirit it was given and may you receive God's Word and be blessed.