And in other views what I said means I value peoples lives!
I did say it was because I don't have the right to take the child's life, and having that as part of being a believer.
What I said never implies that anything is more than another.
-
Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:- Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
- Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
- Access to private conversations with other members.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!
God's Judgment of Dead Babies
- Thread starter Salvador
- Start date
And in other views what I said means I value peoples lives!
I did say it was because I don't have the right to take the child's life, and having that as part of being a believer.
What I said never implies that anything is more than another.
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
I think it just depends on the time and denomination. The Baptist church I went to held the belief that dead babies got to go to Heaven because Jesus' loves the little children. According to Dante, unbaptized dead babies went to Hell.
jonathan180iq
Well-Known Member
I think the question here is; if beliefs are reality, then which is it? For all the theists in here, which one actually happens and which one is cockamamie hocus pocus?
Forever_Catholic
Active Member
Are you looking at the ancient Hebrew or the Masoretic Hebrew? The original Septuagint or the Jamnian-Palestinian Translation?
And Mary is a virgin forever. Consider God’s statement in Ezekiel 44:2 pertaining to the imagery of His new kingdom as a new temple: “And the Lord said to me: This gate shall be shut; it shall not be opened, and no man shall pass through it because the Lord God of Israel hath entered in by it. It shall be shut.”
Since Mary is the gate through which God the Son entered into the world, Catholics have understood since the beginning that she is not for any other man to pass through. She is God’s property.
This is lost on Protestants for the most part, and I’m sure it means nothing to those who don’t believe in the divinity of Jesus to begin with, but those of us in the Church that He established can understand it both logically and spiritually.
So... she's a perpetual virgin because she was only ever "entered" by one person?
I'm not sure you understand how virginity works.
jonathan180iq
Well-Known Member
Or how even the character of Mary is an evolved form of previous pagan "mother" deities who also claimed eternal purity and varying forms of divinity.
Lucky them. We should rejoice when a little baby dies of cancer. But we do not. Why not?
What did those kids do to deserve such a special preferential treatment? And what did we do to deserve life and all those risks associated to it? Risks with eternal and irreversible consequences. A few decades on this valley of tears does not look like a good bargain.
Question for you: what is wrong with abortion, then? Wouldn't that be the ultimate act of love? A woman aborting with this in mind would risk her own soul to grant a guaranteed eternal future for her baby. The ultimate sacrifice. Jesus sacrifice on the cross would pale in comparison. Don't you think so?
Ciao
- viole
Last edited:
roger1440
I do stuff
Define "babies".
NulliuSINverba
Active Member
According to the Christian doctrine of original sin, all babies are born sinful. No one gets a free pass regarding sin.
A typical sinner. Notice the carefree, unrepentant expression?
We've already established that babies do not need to grow up and "become evil." Being human, they are (according to Christianity) inherently evil and so deserve eternal torment in hell.
As to the the rest of your question: Christians maintain that their god is omniscient. This means he knows all.
Choosing evil has nothing to do with salvation. In fact, one could do evil all one's life and still be (according to Christianity) perfectly eligible for salvation.
Once again, you are advised to study the Christian doctrine of Original Sin. Babies may look as cute as a little bug's ear, but they are (according to Christianity) undoubtedly born sinful.
1.) There is nothing in the Bible that explicitly states that babies (dead or not) are innocent and automatically worthy of heaven.
2.) The Bible states that humanity is inherently evil because Adam and Eve ate from a magical tree after being deceived by a talking snake.
THAT IS WHY!
...
However, Christians are fairly clear on what one must do to be saved:
~ from "What Must I Do To Be Saved?" by Robert Velarde via Focus On The Family's website.Robert Velarde said:
So it's clear. To achieve salvation, babies need to:
1.) Believe in Jesus, combining faith and trust and acting on it.
2.) Express a sincere willingness to change their sinful behavior.
Plus (and this is the clincher), they need to:
3.) Humble themselves before (and display proper deference to the authority of) God's earthly representatives.
Salvador
RF's Swedenborgian
No.
The people who wrote the Bible did not even understand where babies come from.
They thought a male put his seed into a female vessel.
So it made sense to them that a male God could beget a son from a virginal and "immaculate" conception.
But the "immaculate conception" wasn't Jesus. That was Mary. She was immaculately concepted because otherwise God wouldn't have a pure vessel to "put His seed into".
None of this makes any sense now that we know where babies come from. But trust me, Christians still teach this.
Tom
Last edited:
Salvador
RF's Swedenborgian
Thank you for sharing your knowledge of the Holy scriptures, Jonathan180iq. According to Psalms 51:5, God does judge everybody as sinners at the point of conception. I suppose this could include human embryos inside of a petri dish. If the biblical God were real, then I would hope that human embryos that pass away would be saved by God's Grace and Salvation, even though a human embryo could neither accept nor reject God's Salvation. I think there are some Christians ( i.e. Calvinists ) who do believe that non-elect babies who die are automatically doomed to Hell. If this were the case, then I would argue against any human procreation. However, I think that dead babies would be forgiven for their sins against God, because Jesus likes children.
"Then some children were brought to Him so that He might lay His hands on them and pray; and the disciples rebuked them. 14But Jesus said, "Let the children alone, and do not hinder them from coming to Me; for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these. " ( Matthew 19:13-14 )
Last edited:
Salvador
RF's Swedenborgian
According to the Christian doctrine of original sin, all babies are born sinful. No one gets a free pass regarding sin.
A typical sinner. Notice the carefree, unrepentant expression?
We've already established that babies do not need to grow up and "become evil." Being human, they are (according to Christianity) inherently evil and so deserve eternal torment in hell.
As to the the rest of your question: Christians maintain that their god is omniscient. This means he knows all.
Choosing evil has nothing to do with salvation. In fact, one could do evil all one's life and still be (according to Christianity) perfectly eligible for salvation.
Once again, you are advised to study the Christian doctrine of Original Sin. Babies may look as cute as a little bug's ear, but they are (according to Christianity) undoubtedly born sinful.
1.) There is nothing in the Bible that explicitly states that babies (dead or not) are innocent and automatically worthy of heaven.
2.) The Bible states that humanity is inherently evil because Adam and Eve ate from a magical tree after being deceived by a talking snake.
THAT IS WHY!
...
However, Christians are fairly clear on what one must do to be saved:
~ from "What Must I Do To Be Saved?" by Robert Velarde via Focus On The Family's website.
So it's clear. To achieve salvation, babies need to:
1.) Believe in Jesus, combining faith and trust and acting on it.
2.) Express a sincere willingness to change their sinful behavior.
Plus (and this is the clincher), they need to:
3.) Humble themselves before (and display proper deference to the authority of) God's earthly representatives.
Thank you for sharing the picture of the cute baby, she is so adorable. Even though the Bible makes it clear that the God of the Bible judges everybody as born sinners, I don't think that necessarily means that God would exclude those who die in infancy from going to Heaven; because Jesus loves children. "And they were bringing children to him, that he might touch them; and the disciples rebuked them. But when Jesus saw it he was indignant, and said to them, "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them; for to such belongs the kingdom of God. Truly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it." And he took them in his arms and blessed them, laying his hands upon them." ( Mark 10:13-16 )
NulliuSINverba
Active Member
That scripture you cited neglects to unequivocally state that babies (dead or otherwise) automatically go to heaven. It seems more like Jesus was saying that one must become "like a child" to enter the kingdom of heaven.
Again, salvation appears to be contingent upon belief and repentance (and maybe even baptism). As I said, one would need to demonstrate that babies are capable of believing in Jesus and also of repenting of their sins.
Of course, it could be that babies are in fact entitled to a Get Out Of Hell Free card and the Bible simply neglects to mention that.
One can understand why, of course. It might have encouraged the faithful to murder their own children.
...
And as far as Jesus loving children, that may not be universally applicable:
The Bible" said:
OK. He did heal the Canaanite woman's daughter eventually. But doesn't it seem like she really had to twist The Savior's arm on that one?
JayJayDee
Avid JW Bible Student
According to the Christian doctrine of original sin, all babies are born sinful. No one gets a free pass regarding sin.
A typical sinner. Notice the carefree, unrepentant expression?
We've already established that babies do not need to grow up and "become evil." Being human, they are (according to Christianity) inherently evil and so deserve eternal torment in hell.
As to the the rest of your question: Christians maintain that their god is omniscient. This means he knows all.
Choosing evil has nothing to do with salvation. In fact, one could do evil all one's life and still be (according to Christianity) perfectly eligible for salvation.
Once again, you are advised to study the Christian doctrine of Original Sin. Babies may look as cute as a little bug's ear, but they are (according to Christianity) undoubtedly born sinful.
1.) There is nothing in the Bible that explicitly states that babies (dead or not) are innocent and automatically worthy of heaven.
2.) The Bible states that humanity is inherently evil because Adam and Eve ate from a magical tree after being deceived by a talking snake.
THAT IS WHY!
...
However, Christians are fairly clear on what one must do to be saved:
~ from "What Must I Do To Be Saved?" by Robert Velarde via Focus On The Family's website.
So it's clear. To achieve salvation, babies need to:
1.) Believe in Jesus, combining faith and trust and acting on it.
2.) Express a sincere willingness to change their sinful behavior.
Plus (and this is the clincher), they need to:
3.) Humble themselves before (and display proper deference to the authority of) God's earthly representatives.
Everything you have written here is a perfect example of why Christendom has it all wrong.
It is the ridiculous doctrines adopted by Christendom that has turned many away from Christianity or even belief in the existence of God, altogether.
"Sin" is simply falling short of the mark of perfection. The original language word was an archery term, meaning to miss the mark. It is the imperfection that leads to poor decisions and a lack of wisdom. This is what came with the sin of Adam. A loss of his former perfection was handed down genetically to all his progeny.
"Hell" is the common grave where all humankind end up. Babies, old people and all in between go to "hell". (Eccl 9:5, 10)
If dead babies go to the same place of peace and rest as all mankind do, then there is no question or suggestion that God is somehow unfair. Even the "unrighteous" dead will get a chance to get things right in the resurrection. (John 5:28, 29)
NulliuSINverba
Active Member
I concur wholeheartedly.
Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
That is not what it says. Humans are not born with sin, nor does it say at conception man has a soul.
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
This is why the Hebrew said the soul entered with the first breath of life, at birth.
And I might add, - that it, and the child, were not fully formed until around 12, the age of reason.
*
Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
The problem is that there is no logic in the story Christians came up with, - after stealing, - and mistranslating, and misunderstanding, Hebrew texts.
Any Jew on this site can tell you Immanuel has nothing to do with Jesus. Immanuel's birth takes place during a war - as a sign to them that God is with them, - hence his name -- Immanuel = With us is God - or God is with us.
*
While I think that the doctrine of Original Sin is offensive, your alternative makes no sense at all. You think that Adam, while perfect, sinned (i.e. was less than perfect)?
Was he standing in the corner of a round room while he did it?
If God is completely sovereign, then any situation where human beings end up in different places is unfair.
If God is knowingly, wilfully responsible for the universe and everything in it, then he's responsible for our actions, too. Our failings would be God's failings, and it would be unjust to punish us for them, just as it's unjust to beat a dog as it grows up (or watch and do nothing while someone else beats it) and then put it down for biting someone.