Gods of Hinduism

Kalicharan Tuvij · Oct 13, 2013

मैत्रावरुणिः;3529372 said:
FH,

... Or, you can PM Kalicharan Tuvij here on RF, who is also well-rounded with the scripture in said question. Enjoy:

THE RIGVEDA - A HISTORICAL ANALYSIS

<condescending£rebuking£angry>
Thanks MV for talkin on my behalf.
And why give link to this work that is opposed to your views on AMT?

<normal>

NobodyYouKnow said:
Svetaketu, still not happy says; 'yes, I know that, father (Udalaka was his father)...but really and truly, how many?...at the end of the day, how many?'
Udalaka then said "well, every Hindu believes in the Trimurti (Brahm, Visnu, Mahesha)...so to save argument, we will say 'okay, there's three Gods. Hinduism has three Gods, happy now?'
Svetaketu still wasn't satisfied "I know that too, but out of those three, which is the greatest God? The #1 God?"
Udalaka smiled and said - 'so, you are finally admitting there's only one God after asking me how many there are?...you are indeed a silly boy...what if I were to tell you there is only ONE God and thou art that?
You are God, Svetaketu. You ARE God, so stop trying to count them!
This is how I learned it.

Best post by far, isn't it?

Vinayaka · Oct 13, 2013

ions said:
since Shiva is a direct (top-most) devotee of God,

Really?

Poeticus · Oct 13, 2013

Kalicharan Tuvij said:
<condescending£rebuking£angry>
Thanks MV for talkin on my behalf.
And why give link to this work that is opposed to your views on AMT?

<normal>

Because, a lot of it contains the truth. Furthermore, it is best for FH to have varying approaches so she can familiarize herself with the differing viewpoints instead of relying on one stream of thought. However, my views are not AMT (and nor is this the correct thread to discuss such matter); I, personally, believe that Rig Vedic tribes populated regions from the Vindhya Mountains all the way to Southern Central Asia.

Best post by far, isn't it?

Yes, KT. You are God. That you are.

Poeticus · Oct 13, 2013

Vinayaka said:
Really?

Yeah, it seems Ions is serious.

Vinayaka · Oct 13, 2013

मैत्रावरुणिः;3529411 said:
Yeah, it seems Ions is serious.

It's all good, just a subtle reminder there. (And all this time I though t I was worshipping God.) What's AMT? Different than AIT?

NobodyYouKnow · Oct 13, 2013

Vinayaka said:
Really?

LOL

I tended to gloss over that comment, recalling the time Lord Vishnu offered one of His Lotus Eyes to our Lord - I just don't say these things...oops.

Vinayaka · Oct 13, 2013

Thanks.

Why?

'Civilisation' or rather 'civilised people' must have started somewhere in the middle east, (because it says so in the scripture) . It is impossible for any other group to have had any kind of advanced civilisation on their own ... therefore we must have invaded them.

It's just more of this us/them, good/bad mentality of extreme dualism. That's why, in a nutshell. It all starts with a false presumption.

Kalicharan Tuvij · Oct 13, 2013

Vinayaka said:
"It is impossible for any other group to have had any kind of advanced civilisation on their own ... therefore we must have invaded them."
It's just more of this us/them, good/bad mentality of extreme dualism. That's why, in a nutshell. It all starts with a false presumption.

Yeah, that is a persistent problem with all scholars.

Many times I can't help laugh at the assertion "Shiva is Dravidian and Vishnu is Aryan". Agree, these scholars depend for their livelihood on such work, but why others bear the burnt?

This is indeed a problem with such kind of scholarship, and that's what I suppose the OP also intends to indulge into.

Re: MV
<wicked>
OK, I got it. But something must be wrong with you, something. What is it?

KT

NobodyYouKnow · Oct 13, 2013

Kalicharan Tuvij said:
Yeah, that is a persistent problem with all scholars.

Many times I can't help laugh at the assertion "Shiva is Dravidian and Vishnu is Aryan". Agree, these scholars depend for their livelihood on such work, but why others bear the burnt?

This is indeed a problem with such kind of scholarship, and that's what I suppose the OP also intends to indulge into.

Re: MV
<wicked>
OK, I got it. But something must be wrong with you, something. What is it?

KT

I got over the whole "Shiva is Dravidian and Vishnu is Aryan" thing when I started studying Kashmir Shaivism.

...and when I moved onto better arguments, like "did Lord Buddha become an 'Avatar' of Lord Vishnu just to try and convert all the Buddhists of the time"?

What about Lord Shiva's role in Buddhism? Now that is a very interesting tale there.

Whether or not Shiva is Dravidian or Aryan pales in comparison to that.

Just making conversation...

Om Namah Shivaya

Vinayaka · Oct 13, 2013

Personally, I don't really care. But I do care if beginners to SD are taught incorrect stuff. (Partly why I'm here.) Not everyone has intuitive filters that can see BS for what it is.

But for me personally, it's just 'Siva is All and in All' and all that history stuff really isn't relevant to how I worship or live my life today.

Kalidas · Oct 13, 2013

Wow a lot happened while I was gone, and I am now fairly lost lol. I do hate that whole idea that it is impossible for any other people can become "civilized"(that to me is a very opinion based term) without the help of the mighty White man.

I kinda wanted to write an answer to Ions post last night but never really did but I guess I could now. Well I have already stated in another post of my personal beliefs of the deities and what they mean to me. To me if Shiva worships anything it would be he worshiping the divinity that he himself is.

I would also like to say that I did in fact LOVE the gita but I wouldn't say any God is a "lesser" God not worthy of worship. For me the divinity that is present in us all reveals itself to us in many forms, or one form, or 2 forms, or maybe even none. Personally I WORSHIP one deity Kali Maa, yet I guess I worship two others Genesha and Hanuman. But I do agree with the not worshiping any God just for material gain, that is not the "big picture". Who knows though I could be wrong, what I do know is feel closer to God, the Gods, the divine, the ultimate reality...what ever you want to call it.

Back to the original post I really don't know much about the older Vedic Gods sadly, but trying to get a base line "The is what Hindus believe" is going to be hard, like very hard. I know you need to do this for an assignment (I too am in College so I understand) but Hinduism is one of those Religions you kind of have to live it to understand it. You can study certain things here and there and certain historical facts here and there but without living it you can never get the "Big picture". Luckily you don't need the "Big picture" lol just a side note if you ever decide you want to learn more beyond the superficial outer layers that the "outside" populace learns about. I have been going at it for about 2 years now and I feel I have learned a lot, which has only taught me one thing "I NEED to learn more". I feel I don't know enough, but I will have patience besides I have many lifetimes to "get it".

Fireside_Hindu · Oct 13, 2013

मैत्रावरुणिः;3529372 said:
FH,

The following are a few links that may come in handy. However, if you find a hymn or a verse on which you need clarification, please let me know and I will do my best to assist you. Or, you can PM Kalicharan Tuvij here on RF, who is also well-rounded with the scripture in said question. Enjoy:

http://www.sanskritweb.net/rigveda/griffith-p.pdf

Ravi's sanskrit site: http://sanskrit.pvravi.net

THE RIGVEDA - A HISTORICAL ANALYSIS

The Hymns of the Rigveda - Google Books

Rig-Veda-sanhita: the sacred hymns of the Brahmans - Google Books

Vedams eBooks

(if you are interested in reading a little bit about Rig Vedic meters --->) http://ia700401.us.archive.org/29/items/vedicmetreinitsh00arnouoft/vedicmetreinitsh00arnouoft.pdf

Many thanks! :namaste:

ShivaFan · Oct 13, 2013

Namaste

In part, this can be explained by the involvement of the Devatas in the lives of nations, states, regions and provences, natural landmarks, tirthas, cities, towns, routes and riverways, islands, lakes and seas, villages, specific communities, sects, and ultimately individual devotees, saints and mystics. And I didn't even mention Devatas involvement on different lokas, spiritual planes and universes.

History is a remembrence of events in the past, and there is history still to come, the histories of Devas and Devi in the past are not the end of it, they live today and history can and will happen today and in the future.

Take some village, it doesn't matter the name. It is thousands of years ago, a great plague has come. The people of the village are good, and in particular there is one devotee of Devi who is very good indeed. His parents have died due to the plague, he leaves his little home to live as an ascetic in a cave found in a hill about a days walk from his home.

Inside the cave he meditates on Gauri Devi (a manifestation of Parvati). An apparition appears, She says She is ****ala of the Hill with a cooling hand that will take away the plague. She asks the devotee to look, and there is a Murti of a two armed Devi with a broom in hand. She tells the devotee to take the Murti to the village.

The devotee goes back, and shows the Murti to the others, and given a shrine. The plague goes away.

They call Her the Cooling Hand. For they felt a cooling hand come over their forehead when worshipped in the shrine.

100 years later, She is still worshipped. Something happened there. History was made. Others come from distant places to see Her. They feel Her presence.

She becomes One More. The Devi with the Cooling Hand. She has now several names. ****ala from the Hill. The Devi known as the Cooling Hand. "You are Gauri, You are from the Hill, You are my Mother, come ****ala for You are the Cooling Hand. Shiva is with You. You are full of Glory" - and so they sing. One day Her temple will also be in New York City. Perhaps NYC will find Her grace in due time, or just in time.

Om Namah Sivaya

Satyamavejayanti · Oct 13, 2013

=Mart30000;3528836]The amount of gods in Hinduism causes me a lot of confusion. I'm having a lot of troubles making out who is more important versus not. Searching Google hasn't entirely helped.

Namaste,

You will get a billion answers, and mine is just one of them.

Would someone tell me which are the three primary gods of the Rig Veda? Aren't half of the hymns about Indra (the creator god) and Agni (the fire god)? And who is the god of order in the Rig Veda?

Not a scholar of any kind, but i believe there are no "Gods" in the Rigveda, or any Veda.

Finally, has anyone read Hinduism: A Beginner's Guide by Klaus K. Klostermaier and/or The Essentials of Hinduism by Swami Bhaskarananda? If so, what do you think of them? I want to try to understand the "big" picture of this complex religion. Thanks for any help!

No cant say i have, maybe ill look into these.

Jaskaran Singh · Oct 13, 2013

Mart30000 said:
Would someone tell me which are the three primary gods of the Rig Veda? Aren't half of the hymns about Indra (the creator god) and Agni (the fire god)? And who is the god of order in the Rig Veda?

In case you're wondering, there was originally only one Veda, as is stated in the Pūrvabhāgaprārambhaḥ of the Brahmāṇḍa-mahāpurāṇam:

आद्यो वेदश्चतुष्पादः शतसाहस्रसंमितः।
पुनर्दशगुणः कृष्णो यज्ञो वै सर्वकामधुक्॥१.३४.७॥

Transliteration:
ādyo vedaścatuṣpādaḥ śatasāhasrasaṃmitaḥ।
punardaśaguṇaḥ kṛṣṇo yajño vai sarvakāmadhuk॥1.34.7॥

Translation:
"The first [i.e. original] (ādyo) Veda (vedas) [had] four feet (catuṣpāda&#7717

[and] was equally (sa&#7747

measured-out (mita&#7717

[to] a hundred-thousand (śatasāhasra). Once again (punar), the Kṛṣṇayajurveda (kṛṣṇo) was divided ten-fold (daśaguṇa); truly (vai), the yajña (yajño) is the granter (dhuk) of all (sarva) desires (kāma)."

एवमुक्तस्तथेत्युक्त्वा मनुर्लौकहिते रतः।
वेदमेकं चतुष्पादं चतुर्द्धा व्यभजत्प्रभुः॥१.३४.८॥

Transliteration:
evamuktastathetyuktvā manurlaukahite rataḥ।
vedamekaṃ catuṣpādaṃ caturddhā vyabhajatprabhuḥ॥1.34.8॥

Translation:
"Thus (evam) [it] was said (ukta) to [Svāyambhuva] Manu (manur), who, devoted to (rata&#7717

the welfare of the world (laukahite), said (uktv&#257

"so be it" (tatheti). The single (eka&#7747

Veda (vedam) of four feet (catuṣpāda&#7747

was [then] divided by (vyabhajat) the Lord (prabhu&#7717

[into] four parts (caturddh&#257

."

NobodyYouKnow said:
LOL
I tended to gloss over that comment, recalling the time Lord Vishnu offered one of His Lotus Eyes to our Lord - I just don't say these things...oops.

Could you please provide some form of itihāsa-vacana from the Vālmīki Rāmāyaṇam to back up your claim that Śrī Rāma worshpped Śrī Sadāśiva/Umāpati-śambhū?
Note: I'm referring explicitly to the Vālmīki Rāmāyaṇam and not the Adhyātma-Rāmāyaṇam, Kamba Rāmāyaṇam, Rāmacaritamānasa, Padmapurāṇam, or the folk legends of Rāmeśvaram.

Vinayaka said:
'Civilisation' or rather 'civilised people' must have started somewhere in the middle east, (because it says so in the scripture) . It is impossible for any other group to have had any kind of advanced civilisation on their own ...

Well, apart from the fact that the first verifiable neolithic sites were located in sub-Saharan Africa, a considerable distance away from the so-called "Fertile-Crescent" (making your view of the diffusion of agriculture from the Middle East incorrect from a historical perspective), I'm wondering whether there is any śāstra-pramāṇa for such a view (from what I've read in Hindu scriptures, it seems that Indian civilization spread from the South to the North). In any case, your claim that "it says so in the scripture" is purely hearsay unless you can provide any quotations to back it up.

Vinayaka said:
therefore we must have invaded them.

Using that logic, it seems I must have invaded Karl Benz and Henry Ford, as I drive a car daily.

NobodyYouKnow · Oct 13, 2013

lemaster13 said:
To me if Shiva worships anything it would be he worshiping the divinity that he himself is.

Namaste.

I have often wondered why Shiva is in meditation...in that what does God realize when God realizes God? :banghead3

Om Namah Shivaya

NobodyYouKnow · Oct 13, 2013

Jaskaran Singh said:
Could you please provide some form of itihāsa-vacana from the Vālmīki Rāmāyaṇam to back up your claim that Śrī Rāma worshpped Śrī Sadāśiva/Umāpati-śambhū?
Note: I'm referring explicitly to the Vālmīki Rāmāyaṇam and not the Adhyātmā Rāmāyaṇam, Kamba Rāmāyaṇam, Rāmacaritamānasa, Padmapurāṇam, or the folk legends of Rāmeśvaram.

I am referring to the Shiva Puran. The whole story of that episode is in it...somewhere.

I'm also not the type of person that can recall specific texts and passages beyond what I have read (I somehow don't have the mental capability for that).

So, if you are looking for me to tell you where something is in a particular Puran, Upanishad, Veda or even the Gita, you will be sorely disappointed.

All I can do, is say "yeah, the whole story is in there...I don't know where...but it's in there".

However, if you don't see Shiva Puran as being an 'authentic source' it really matters not, doesn't it?

It's just one school of thought debating another school of thought, right? riiight?

Om Namah Shivay.

Jaskaran Singh · Oct 13, 2013

NobodyYouKnow said:
I'm also not the type of person that can recall specific texts and passages beyond what I have read (I somehow don't have the mental capability for that).

So, if you are looking for me to tell you where something is in a particular Puran, Upanishad, Veda or even the Gita, you will be sorely disappointed.

All I can do, is say "yeah, the whole story is in there...I don't know where...but it's in there".

Are you Necro from HDF? Just wondering...

NobodyYouKnow said:
if you don't see Shiva Puran as being an 'authentic source'

Well, since Vyāsa-muni himself classifies the text in question as tāmasika as well as the fact that it's not even the primary Śaiva-purāṇa (it's merely an upapurāṇa, unlike the Vāyupurāṇam), I see no reason to view the text as having had no interpolations.

NobodyYouKnow said:
It really matters not, doesn't it? It's just one school of thought debating another school of thought, right? riiight?

From the perspective of a smārta (or a neo-Hindu) who follows the "all-gods-are-equal" train of thought, then I agree, it would not matter. However, if one is to make a claim regarding the superiority of one's own iṣṭa-devatā on a public forum and yet lack the ability to quote evidence in order to back it up, then it's good to at least establish that this is indeed the case, no? I don't want to get in an argument, so I'll shut up now. :foot:

Vinayaka · Oct 13, 2013

Jaskaran Singh said:
Well, apart from the fact that the first verifiable neolithic sites were located in sub-Saharan Africa, a considerable distance away from the so-called "Fertile-Crescent" (making your view of the diffusion of agriculture from the Middle East incorrect from a historical perspective), I'm wondering whether there is any śāstra-pramāṇa for such a view (from what I've read in Hindu scriptures, it seems that Indian civilization spread from the South to the North). In any case, your claim that "it says so in the scripture" is purely hearsay unless you can provide any quotations to back it up.

Using that logic, it seems I must have invaded Karl Benz and Henry Ford, as I drive a car daily.

I'm sorry, but I'm no scholar. You win.

NobodyYouKnow · Oct 13, 2013

Jaskaran Singh said:
Are you Necro from HDF? Just wondering...

....aaand hence why this user-name was chosen. lol

I cannot lie though. It's one of the shortcomings of trying to be both anonymous and brutally honest simultaneously...

What gave it away? Was it my blind devotion to Bhairava? or was it the fact that I suffer with 'selective scriptural amnesia'?

It's not that I 'don't have any evidence to support my beliefs' just because I can't reference a Holy Book and go....ah, there we go...see now?'

I have studied all the Vedas, Upanishads, Bhagavatam, Mahabharata, Valmiki's Ramayana and all that like 20 years ago now. I spent 10 years doing nothing but that!

I recall all the 'stories'...I recall all the 'teachings' from everything I have read and I do recall many Shlokas, Mantras from these and where they are, but I really and honestly don't want to go back and revisit all that! You could say that I am 'over it'.

I could give an example using something that I 'remember' from say, one of the Upanishads and the details will be correct and accurate in every way...but I honestly cannot be bothered going to look up the chapter, the verse, how it is written in Sanskrit...I really cannot be bothered.

Since leaving behind all the 'main books of Hinduism', I started studying Patanjali's Yoga Sutras, the Hatha Yoga Pradipika, Vijnana Bhairava Tantra, Saundarya Lahari and the Virashaiva texts, so yeah...I went that way instead...

Could you please provide some form of itihāsa-vacana from the Vālmīki Rāmāyaṇam to back up your claim that Śrī Rāma worshpped Śrī Sadāśiva/Umāpati-śambhū?

...so, you asking me to say where Lord Rama worshiped Lord Siva is stated in the Scriptures when there's even a whole city named after the place where that happened and it's also one of our 12 Jyotirlingams...well, to a Shaiva, that is all rather non-sequitir.

Om Namah Shivay.

Gods of Hinduism

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Well-Known Member

Jai Lakshmi Maa

Satyameva Jayate

Well-Known Member

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devotee

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