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God's opposition to homosexual behavior. Why?

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Coming to realize that they would need to spend eternity without a spouse might change their minds.
That's ok to some.
And I thank God for that.
Do you also thank god I work with kids, and influence them? Some of my nieces and nephews were able to abandon religion with my help. I have a way of priming young minds to ask serious questions, the sort of questions that religion tends to not survive.
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
I always wanted children and find great joy in having them.
That's cool. But to myself, and many more than you realize, children are a burden, a curse, and way too much what other people expect of us instead of what we want for ourselves.
 

SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
You got the wrong generation mate. I didn´t realize I was speaking to a Brit, your national social history is different to ours. I Was speaking of the Berkeley free speech movement of the 60ś. I was also speaking of the crybaby loser college students in the USA.

I didn´t read the OPś post, I wasn´t interested, he didn´t represent my Christian views, and you are unjust in lumping me in with ¨ YOU guyś´´ you don´t know me, you don´t know my actions you don´t know how I relate to anyone.

I only responded because as I was passing by I caught your emphatic statement about being ¨ born that way ¨. There is very little evidence of this, lots of theoryś. I once had a long conversation with a celibate Christian homosexual on the very question of ¨ why would I choose to be this way ¨. I appreciate your point

As you guys say, cheers. As we say, have a nice day
I'm an Aussie mate. Though I suppose we do resemble our Brit brothers quite a bit. And our history is pretty much unique to just us. It's weird.

I apologize for lumping you into that camp. But to be fair, I was trying to speak in terms of generalities.

Born that way, not born that way, I don't think it's that important really. They are fellow human beings, so to see them harassed and bullied by (some) Christians does tend to rub me the wrong way. It's just not right, especially considering Jesus' message of compassion, love and mercy.

Cheers, mate.
 

FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
As an agnostic, I don't believe anything you say about your god. All my remarks about god are in the context of Christian beliefs.

.

There's only one God, the creator is one, we may make hundreds of Gods and hundreds
of religions, but the reality is one.
 

Kelly of the Phoenix

Well-Known Member
based on complete theological and historical error
Where was I inaccurate?

The male and female are to raise the child
You just said it was the mother's job while the father goes out and does other stuff.

But many do choose to adopt and I am certain we will begin to see the repercussions.
Yes, children abandoned by messed up heteros will finally be able to be loved like they should.

I'm from an abusive childhood. You cannot convince me hetero parents are superior just because they're hetero.

It was okay for abortion, infanticide and beating one's children.
It's biblical, too. Honor thy father and mother or they will shank yo' butt.

Which is exactly what is happening. Your god doesn't care and people are raping and killing each other, yet he expects praise, worship, and adoration. Go figure. And go figure out those who do just this.
I was rereading Mark for a book I'm writing. Mark has Jesus talk about a sower of seeds who doesn't know how plants grow. This is our God, ladies and gentlemen: "I just go with it. Who cares how it works?"

Do you also thank god I work with kids, and influence them?
I do. Anyone who rescues children from abusers is a saint in my book. No one ever rescued us. <3
 

Jason.D.King

New Member

Quite interesting that you believe the majority of conservative Christians who do translate this are not biased in any way. I am indeed a Biblical scholar, I have a Bachelor's of Science degree in Religious Studies.

However, this isn't the 1980's were you MUST rely on a scholar from 7 cities over. You can do your own research by using the all powerful internet - and guess what, you can translate it yourself with translators that are online.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
I don't think there is any evidence that child abuse of any sort has been linked directly with homosexuality, and especially sexual abuse. From what I have seen, not recent I will admit, there are more indications that it is something that one tends to be born with - for whatever reasons. But I wouldn't discount early experiences, like mine, having an effect - for some. The fact that it might have a genetic basis might be strengthened by the fact that homosexual behaviour is rather common in many animal species. :oops:

List of animals displaying homosexual behavior - Wikipedia

So you saying that sexual imprinting can affect 1,000 different fetishes and proclivities, but that a man molested by a man a dozen times has no imprinting from that?
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
All people have broken souls in some form or another, they just may not recognize it. You have a broken soul, you just may refuse to acknowledge it.

Your research results would be of interest to me. Contrary to the popular line, there is no biological/genetic cause for homosexuality known, to this point. I know many cling to the formula that says homosexuality has an inevitable biological cause, it will eventually be found. This is akin to those who believe in abiogenisis ( the self creation of life from a random combination of non living chemicals). It is true, therefore, proof of it will be found. Once again we are dealing with opinion, not fact.

Homosexuality exists, fact. It isn't biologically determined, fact, therefore it is caused.

What causes it ? Not the genes, but apparently the function of the mind. What causes the mind to function this way ?

Imprinting. Why does no one on this forum recognize and understand how imprinting works for the abused?

Imprinting (psychology) - Wikipedia
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
@BilliardsBall

Except that most LGB people have not been abused as children and most people who have been abused are heterosexual, so your theory doesn't make sense. Every gay person is not in therapy so you can't extropolate what someone says in therapy to a community as a whole.

The problem with the believe that abuse causes homosexuality

The article doesn't refute anything I've said, and, repeating, I've witnessed to numerous homosexuals and heard from clinicians who confirm what I've shared. Why does no one on this forum understand what sexual imprinting is?
 

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
:whale:
So you saying that sexual imprinting can affect 1,000 different fetishes and proclivities, but that a man molested by a man a dozen times has no imprinting from that?

:D I'm not in any way qualified to say what goes on in the animal world, but it might just be genetically passed on, as it might be in humans. You can tell the difference? Imprinting has nothing to do with any mechanism that might cause an abused child to be altered by any sexual abuse. they are probably long past any stage where imprinting would have any effect. Do you know anything about imprinting? There is usually a window of opportunity (age range) for such to take effect and outside of this it has no effect.

Imprinting is a rather different kettle of fish. :whale:

Had a look at what bonobos get up to - they apparently are our closest primate relatives?
 
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SomeRandom

Still learning to be wise
Staff member
Premium Member
The article doesn't refute anything I've said, and, repeating, I've witnessed to numerous homosexuals and heard from clinicians who confirm what I've shared. Why does no one on this forum understand what sexual imprinting is?
Uhh when discussing the affects of imprinting on sexually abused children the actual discussion tends to be about explaining sexual offenders, as in sex crimes perpetrated by previously abused individuals or even an unhealthy understanding of relationships in general (with regards to expectations or even consent.) Usually through a combination of....."complications" let's say.
To explain sexual orientation however doesn't seem like it's recognised as a consequence. Since that's not really seen as a thing in actual psychology, as far as I know.
Could be wrong. But sexual orientation is not seen as something that is actively affected by imprinting. Otherwise again all the heterosexuals who were abused would be heterosexual specifically because of abuse. I don't think that's how it actually works. Since sexual orientation does seem to develop independent of such occurances.
Sexual kinks/fantasies might be influenced by abuse, but that's not really the same as orientation anyway so.

Also stats please.
Everyone on this board can claim the exact opposite of your "findings" given their interactions with potentially thousands of gay people. So it's nothing but hearsay.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
My "polls" come from speaking to thousands of people. Christians and I speak frankly on the issues. Also you can search online for Christian psychologists who concur, most Christians were either abused as children or have a broken relationship with a same sex parent.

I'm not "trotting out" bigotry when I have frank, intimate talks with Christians. I'm rather insisting that the scripture is incorrect and Christians are hurting people. Let's help hurting people instead of attacking people trying to help them.

You're not he
I'm not being flippant about that. As I said, I am one of those people.

What I was being flippant about was your silly claim.



So you weren't trying to imply that experiencing abuse by a person of the same sex and/or a broken relationship with a same sex parent results in homosexuality? So why bring it up at all then?


You said, “Specifically, while many people are hurting,most every gay person I've known or encountered witnessing was molested while young and/or had a broken relationship with a same sex parent.”

You were clearly talking about children having issues with members of the same sex, were you not? Please tell me then, what should we have taken away from your statement? Why did you make a point to point out that you think most gay people were abused as children and/or had a broken relationship with a same sex parent?

Tirade? I wrote a two-sentence question.

Sexual imprinting is real: Imprinting (psychology) - Wikipedia

Having a first experience with a same sex person is no guarantee, nor are multiple experiences, however, to a person at an over 99% rate, each homosexual I've met was either molested same sex or had a broken relationship with a same sex parent, which latter point is missed by every person so far who has responded at this forum.
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
I believe your argument is based solely on a personal prejudice against homosexuals.
Our sexuality is at the core of who we are, how we perceive and relate to others. I am a wife, mother, grandmother and great grandmother. Yet I do not hold such silly and destructive notions that a homosexual can be 'fixed'! I am a Catholic and look for guidance in such matters to the Church first, which understands homosexuality not as a choice but a given. All in all, it is essential to recall one basic truth. God loves every person as a unique individual. Sexual identity helps to define the unique persons we are, and one component of our sexual identity is sexual orientation. Thus, our total personhood is more encompassing than sexual orientation. Human beings see the appearance, but the Lord looks into the heart.
All homosexual persons have a right to be welcomed into the community, to hear the word of God, and to receive pastoral care.

There is no arguing that when one faces for the first time a homosexual tendency it is not without fear and struggle with ones own self. Once that is accepted and overcome at the very least they ought to be supported. While prior abuse may influence attitudes and behaviors I don't believe it altars ones true sexuality.

Some people simply refuse to acknowledge the genuine love shared between homosexual couples. The Church recognizes this but the stumbling block for a Catholic homosexual in a relationship is that they are to live without sex. The following is the story of one such couple.

"I came to chastity because I loved my partner so much. I’m a veteran of a 17-year-long committed relationship with another man. It’s a deep friendship, and it has been since almost the moment we met. It was sexually active for the first seven years, and then—after I became a Christian, after I began reflecting on what Scripture and tradition had taught for 2,000 years—I went to my partner and said, "I love you. Can we please stop having sex?"

http://bcm.bc.edu/issues/summer_2003/ft_catholic.html

Thanks for sharing, but I wrote nothing about homosexuals getting "fixed". I wrote nothing about the deep love homosexual friends of mine feel for their partners or homosexual or heterosexual monogamy.

What I wrote is that almost to a person, gay people I know were abused by a same sex parent and/or had a bad relationship with a same sex parent.

Imprinting (psychology) - Wikipedia
 

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
You're not he


Sexual imprinting is real: Imprinting (psychology) - Wikipedia

Having a first experience with a same sex person is no guarantee, nor are multiple experiences, however, to a person at an over 99% rate, each homosexual I've met was either molested same sex or had a broken relationship with a same sex parent, which latter point is missed by every person so far who has responded at this forum.

Probably because they don't believe you or the evidence from elsewhere tends to be the opposite. My suspicions are always aroused when such a view comes from someone with an apparent fervent religious belief - biased somewhat? :rolleyes:

PS Stephen King should stick to fantasy. :D :D :D
 

BilliardsBall

Veteran Member
No I will absolutely "attack" people who hurt my gay brethren for no other reason than a Book. It's people like you who are the reason why I've had to refer my gay friends to actual legitimate professionals for help. Because your lot tells them constantly they're broken and they start believing it eventually. I have seen the consequences of your so called "help" and it causes far more anguish than anything a gay person existing can cause. Which actually doesn't make sense. Being gay is as destructive as being straight. The hell are you even on about with that hurting people nonsense? Your lot hurts people on the daily, hypocrite.

So you'll excuse me if I need more than flimsy fallacious ancetodal evidence to convince me of this statistic. You wanna go that route? I know people from my own family (blood and otherwise) as well as my own circle of friends and their friends and theirs etc even which pretty much proves your findings wrong.

There are entire communities of Gay Christians, who I can also search for and find easily online, who come from pretty stable homes. Explain their existence to me. Go ahead, I'll wait.

Also the vast majority of actual mental health professionals from Psycharitrists to councillors have all come out staunchly against your supposed "findings." Have done for the past 30 years even.
Everyone from the APA to social workers say pretty much the same thing. There is nothing wrong with homosexuality, they are born that way and the real threat to their well being is stigma, mostly from religous sentiments.
And I'd readily listen to actual qualified professionals in the field as opposed to hearsay from an obviously prejudiced layman source with confirmation bias and claims of "helping people."

And you did trot out a supposed justification for homophobic behaviour. By hiding behind abused children. If there existed a puking emoji on here this is where I'd put it.

You know how most modern civilised people view racists today?
Yeah that's how my generation (mostly) views homophobes.

I see you are genuinely upset. I'm not trying to cause you pain. But I will share truth where I can.

Sexual imprinting is an acknowledge science fact: Imprinting (psychology) - Wikipedia

And while psychologists have come against homosexuality being a learned condition, they will never deny the realities of sexual imprinting and of broken relationships with same sex parents, as they deal with these with clients daily.
 

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
I see you are genuinely upset. I'm not trying to cause you pain. But I will share truth where I can.

Sexual imprinting is an acknowledge science fact: Imprinting (psychology) - Wikipedia

And while psychologists have come against homosexuality being a learned condition, they will never deny the realities of sexual imprinting and of broken relationships with same sex parents, as they deal with these with clients daily.

In animal species it is. In humans? :eek:
 

pearl

Well-Known Member
What I wrote is that almost to a person, gay people I know were abused by a same sex parent and/or had a bad relationship with a same sex parent.

And what conclusions do you draw from this about homosexuals? I apologize if I misunderstood you, but your posts read as though you took childhood experiences to influence sexual orientation. From my experience in working in the health care field, including homosexuals, I presented what true homosexuality is.
 

shmogie

Well-Known Member
I see you are genuinely upset. I'm not trying to cause you pain. But I will share truth where I can.

Sexual imprinting is an acknowledge science fact: Imprinting (psychology) - Wikipedia

And while psychologists have come against homosexuality being a learned condition, they will never deny the realities of sexual imprinting and of broken relationships with same sex parents, as they deal with these with clients daily.
Sometimes statements in generalities lead to wrong conclusions. Some, many, most psychologists and psychiatrists may have abandoned the "learned" many have not.

You asked in another post why the imprinting idea was being ignored, the answer is obvious.

This view challenges the new morality PC "fact" that homosexuality is the result of genetic predetermined inevitable factors established long before birth. Imprinting puts this concrete position in peril.

You err in thinking that certain discussions on this issue are about biological and psychological factors in causation. Extremely few are. They are always tumbled together with the PC fact above, which is far from proven, and what they consider must be the inevitable moral position as a result.

Evidence won't sway them, that is truly irrelevant. Inevitable biological predeterminism has been socially established as absolute, irrefutable fact, the science of the matter is not important as relates to the social PC fact.
 
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