God's opposition to homosexual behavior. Why?

[Shadow Wolf]

I am not particularly fond of pi and the Bible. argument. To a rough approximation pi is equal to 3. A little more accuracy gets us 3.1. Most people stop at 3.14. Off the top of my head I can only go 3.14159 and no further. I am sure there are those that know it to at least ten digits here. For Bible times 3 was close enough if not exact. I think there are far better examples of errors in the Bible.

I suppose it depends. If you expect the Bible to be accurate and the infallible word of god, then any error is just as damning. And because this involves math, it is something anyone can see, check, and verify, as it doesn't rely on archeological and geological evidence to prove/disprove. It also depends on the subject, such as, if someone is trying to convince me the Bible is a good source for knowledge regarding health, I'm going to throw out that today we know slinging the blood of any animal around a room is never a good idea, and that the Bible's ritual for when someone has been deemed cured of leprosy is an excellent way to spread disease.

 

[Prestor John]

I suppose it depends. If you expect the Bible to be accurate and the infallible word of god, then any error is just as damning. And because this involves math, it is something anyone can see, check, and verify, as it doesn't rely on archeological and geological evidence to prove/disprove. It also depends on the subject, such as, if someone is trying to convince me the Bible is a good source for knowledge regarding health, I'm going to throw out that today we know slinging the blood of any animal around a room is never a good idea, and that the Bible's ritual for when someone has been deemed cured of leprosy is an excellent way to spread disease.

It makes no sense to judge the Bible by a standard that the record never claimed it would meet.

Why do you judge the Bible for not being infallible considering that it never claims to be infallible?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Why do you judge the Bible for not being infallible considering that it never claims to be infallible?

I don't judge it to be infallible. But many people do. Scriptural literalists, for example, take every last word as factual, 100% accurate truth, that everything within the Bible happened exactly as the Bible says it did.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I suppose it depends. If you expect the Bible to be accurate and the infallible word of god, then any error is just as damning. And because this involves math, it is something anyone can see, check, and verify, as it doesn't rely on archeological and geological evidence to prove/disprove. It also depends on the subject, such as, if someone is trying to convince me the Bible is a good source for knowledge regarding health, I'm going to throw out that today we know slinging the blood of any animal around a room is never a good idea, and that the Bible's ritual for when someone has been deemed cured of leprosy is an excellent way to spread disease.

I can see that it could easily be a mere approximation, but your example of dove's curing leprosy is an excellent example of a biblical failure. As are all of the myths of Genesis. And Exodus. And the failed prophecies. And the hundreds of self contradictions. And the fact that a book that was supposedly inspired by God is so full of such problems.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I can see that it could easily be a mere approximation,

I can accept it was meant as an approximation. However, that would require it to be acknowledged that not everything in the OT was discovered by the Jews, as the Babylonians wrote out and represented pi as 3 while acknowledging it as an approximation of 3. But such a position isn't much of a concern to those who don't expect the Bible to be 100% accurate,. just those who do.

dove's curing leprosy is an excellent example of a biblical failure.

It's not a cure for leprosy, but a part of a ritual to be performed once someone has been cured of it. We have learned since that such a practice is a very good way to throw someone out of the fryer and into the flames, as far as health is concerned, and greatly jeopardize anyone present. Which I guess isn't technically an error, just extremely risky and bad practice, and cruel and inhumane to the dove who is to be slaughtered (and probably a great deal of stress for the other dove who is then soaked in the blood of the dead one and released to fly around).

 

[BilliardsBall]

The plural of anecdote is not data.

How about recorded data done under test and control conditions? How about Lt. Data from Star Trek?

 

[BilliardsBall]

More mental gymnastics in an attempt to cram current knowledge into inaccurate Biblical claims. Ho hum.

I can see your point, but remain moved by Pi coming to five places--and I've even seen other things that God "hid" in the passage. Really, really neat stuff.

 

[BilliardsBall]

That is really grasping at straws. Playing mathematical gymnastics doesn't work, and doesn't provide excuse the Bible from giving a number of 3. Not unless you accept the movie The Number 23 as having some validity, and playing mathematical gymnastics to produce a desired result is a valid method for assessing whether something is accurate or not.

I hear you, but then I say, "Why does this work to five digits of Pi? Surely that's a numerically unlikely coincidence."

 

[BilliardsBall]

A repeat of anecdote is not statistics, nor is it an experiment. Might want to retake remedial Science.
Also I was using it as an example of how unreliable anecdotal evidence actually is. But if you insist. Happily I already used Easter as an excuse to gather this so called data. Mostly for a laugh.(For privacy purposes, I will obviously not be using real names.)


Mr X. Age 66. Response. My family has always been tight knit. I have fond memories of my parents continuously supporting me throughout my life. It was very uncomfortable to come out to them, but after a few ups and downs, I am happy to report that they can finally attend my marriage to my partner of 40 years. (Note, legalized SSM is a relatively new thing where I live. So people are still kind of responding to it.) Can't say I've ever faced any abuse in my life. Unless you count homophobic bullying as abuse. But really a bit of schoolyard shenanigans. Sort of disheartening to hear that is still being touted in today's day and age. I expect that from my generation, because we didn't know any better. Sad that hate and lies still persist.

Mr B. Age 45. Response: Aww, (my real name) you've known us since you were, what, 5? Have you ever gotten even the mere notion of abuse? I mean I know dad is a bit of a grumpy pants and is a smelly old fart. But he's harmless, aren't you Daddy? *sarcastically pats father on the head who in turn grins at him*
Besides love has won *grins*. (Referencing the aforementioned legalization of SSM through popular vote.)

Mr M. Age 33. Response: *Laughs continuously for at least 5 minutes.*
Hey dad, apparently you and mum abused me and that caused me to be FABULOUS!
Mr M's Dad. *Laughing* Ha see, love (his wife) I told you this was all our fault.
Mrs M. *rolls eyes hard af*
Mr M. Hey (brother's name) did you know that apparently I'm gay because I was from an abusive home?
Mr M's brother: *laughing* Oh yeah, it's all their fault
*points dramatically at parents* J'accuse! Thou foul malignant blights upon our family. Oh woe betide us. Hey since I'm not gay, does that mean you only abused (brother's name here)? I told you (brother's name) I was the favourite. Clearly they should have stopped at me, after all, can you do better than perfection? *pretends to pose dramatically like a fashion model*
We all laugh.
Mr M: Nuh uh. Clearly their time was spent with me thank you very much. I'm the most loved.

Meanwhile I look to refill my alcoholic beverage very quickly. Teachers be lame. Nah they're probs my favourite cousins, really. Our visits are often both educational and twisted.

Also fun fact at least one of these families is Christian. Guess which one.

1. Thank you, sincerely, for having the courage to ask them. I mean that, I do.

2. You know I never said, "home of abuse" but said, "distant with a same sex parent"? I said "distant same sex parent and/or indoctrination early from an abusive molester of teen or child".

3. Now I have dozens of anecdotes and you have three, which equals no correlation either way, so I've been looking and looking for that psychologist's quote.

4. I never said, "Christian families never have homosexual members," so why should I guess?

5. I wish you'd read what I wrote, since "schoolyard shenanigans" is "had sex with other boys early in my imprinting days".

You still don't listen to me, which is fine, listen to the non-gendered "man" upstairs, please!

 

[SkepticThinker]

How about recorded data done under test and control conditions? How about Lt. Data from Star Trek?

That would be great.
That is not what you are talking about.

Lt. Data happens to be my favourite Star Trek character and I think he would probably know how to carry out a proper study.

 

[SomeRandom]

1. Thank you, sincerely, for having the courage to ask them. I mean that, I do.

2. You know I never said, "home of abuse" but said, "distant with a same sex parent"? I said "distant same sex parent and/or indoctrination early from an abusive molester of teen or child".

3. Now I have dozens of anecdotes and you have three, which equals no correlation either way, so I've been looking and looking for that psychologist's quote.

4. I never said, "Christian families never have homosexual members," so why should I guess?

5. I wish you'd read what I wrote, since "schoolyard shenanigans" is "had sex with other boys early in my imprinting days".

You still don't listen to me, which is fine, listen to the non-gendered "man" upstairs, please!

1. No problem. I can ask more gay people if you so desire. These were just very close family friends. Or actual family. Hard to tell sometimes lol.
2. Actually all three responders in question all have very warm and happy relationships with their parents who are of the same sex as they are. I've known all three families practically all my life so I have seen this in action.
3. Well, I only gathered 3 out of a possible 20 or more. I could go on a anctedotal spree if that makes you happy. I prefer to listen to actual experts on the matter. But that's just me.
4. No real reason, just a bit of irreverent fun.
5. Whoa! What school did you go to??? "Schoolyard shenanigans" is most certainly not code for "had sex with other boys"or had sex with anyone. At least not where I live. "Teenage shenanigans" is code for having sex. Why would you even think that? Was that your experience? I mean that's cool if it was but like that was kind of a really big leap and quite the weird connection to make even still. Is schoolyard shenanigans an American colloquialism for sex or something? Over here it means stupid kid stuff like picking on others or I dunno, jumping into a Billabong during summer or cane toad hunting at night. Course the further you go back, the more violent the meaning becomes. But it doesn't carry any sexual connotations. For the record, Mr X was a virgin until he met his life partner. And the other two, well I did ask about the sexual imprinting you brought up when I asked them this. And all three were like, whoa, wtf? One lost his V card in the middle of high school, the other during his 20s. And Mr X, well, he would have been in his 20s, if his life partner was with him for 40 years and they're both in their 60s now.
I do. My God is not so petty as to give a damn about a man made prejudice. The non gendered man upstairs protects and loves all of humanity just as they were created. Gay or straight or bi.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Why does this work to five digits of Pi?

Because anyone can take a set a numbers, play some mathematical gymnastics, and produce a desired results.

 

[BilliardsBall]

That would be great.
That is not what you are talking about.

Lt. Data happens to be my favourite Star Trek character and I think he would probably know how to carry out a proper study.

Met Brent Spiner twice at conventions. Cool dude! Love him! A favorite but I'm old school with big faves Kirk and Spock... and McCoy.

 

[BilliardsBall]

1. No problem. I can ask more gay people if you so desire. These were just very close family friends. Or actual family. Hard to tell sometimes lol.
2. Actually all three responders in question all have very warm and happy relationships with their parents who are of the same sex as they are. I've known all three families practically all my life so I have seen this in action.
3. Well, I only gathered 3 out of a possible 20 or more. I could go on a anctedotal spree if that makes you happy. I prefer to listen to actual experts on the matter. But that's just me.
4. No real reason, just a bit of irreverent fun.
5. Whoa! What school did you go to??? "Schoolyard shenanigans" is most certainly not code for "had sex with other boys"or had sex with anyone. At least not where I live. "Teenage shenanigans" is code for having sex. Why would you even think that? Was that your experience? I mean that's cool if it was but like that was kind of a really big leap and quite the weird connection to make even still. Is schoolyard shenanigans an American colloquialism for sex or something? Over here it means stupid kid stuff like picking on others or I dunno, jumping into a Billabong during summer or cane toad hunting at night. Course the further you go back, the more violent the meaning becomes. But it doesn't carry any sexual connotations. For the record, Mr X was a virgin until he met his life partner. And the other two, well I did ask about the sexual imprinting you brought up when I asked them this. And all three were like, whoa, wtf? One lost his V card in the middle of high school, the other during his 20s. And Mr X, well, he would have been in his 20s, if his life partner was with him for 40 years and they're both in their 60s now.
I do. My God is not so petty as to give a damn about a man made prejudice. The non gendered man upstairs protects and loves all of humanity just as they were created. Gay or straight or bi.

It is the last sentence of your post that really causes me agitation, since I AGREE.

God, who is gender neutral, loves and protects EVERYONE, asexual or anywhere on the continuum of human sexuality. I still would like to bring relief from pain to my gay friends and family who've experienced great trauma and pain.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Because anyone can take a set a numbers, play some mathematical gymnastics, and produce a desired results.

I don't think that's so. Perhaps you can find five places of Pi somewhere else--not by observation in the scriptures or in nature--but by doing exactly what you said.

However, I don't mean to beggar your math skills or mine. So let's start with something simpler: show where 2+2=5 using "sets of numbers and math gymnastics".

 

[Prestor John]

I don't judge it to be infallible. But many people do. Scriptural literalists, for example, take every last word as factual, 100% accurate truth, that everything within the Bible happened exactly as the Bible says it did.

Yes, that is accurate.

However, I see you and many others using these inaccuracies as argument against the credibility of the Bible as a record of God's dealings with Man.

Inaccuracies found in the Bible prove that the assumptions made by these "scriptural literalists" are false, not that the Bible is false.

 

[AManCalledHorse]

I've seen homosexuality defended by saying it happens in other species and its a natural act.
Killing for food, for a mate, for territory, all are natural acts.
Where is the line drawn on what natural acts are ok and what natural acts are not ok?

 

[Skwim]

I've seen homosexuality defended by saying it happens in other species and its a natural act.
Killing for food, for a mate, for territory, all are natural acts.
Where is the line drawn on what natural acts are ok and what natural acts are not ok?

Some draw the line when the ick factor kicks in. Some draw the line where harm arises. Others don't draw any line at all. Personally, I draw it where harm arises. If two people, straight or gay, get their jollies from rolling in the hay, a natural act, and both step away unharmed then good for them. What gets me is why people care so much what other consenting folk do sexually that they denounce it.

.

 

[SomeRandom]

I've seen homosexuality defended by saying it happens in other species and its a natural act.
Killing for food, for a mate, for territory, all are natural acts.
Where is the line drawn on what natural acts are ok and what natural acts are not ok?

To be fair, that is only ever brought up in direct response to the argument that it is unnatural. Adding or subtracting morality into the equation is essentially moving the goal posts.

 

[SomeRandom]

It is the last sentence of your post that really causes me agitation, since I AGREE.

God, who is gender neutral, loves and protects EVERYONE, asexual or anywhere on the continuum of human sexuality. I still would like to bring relief from pain to my gay friends and family who've experienced great trauma and pain.

Well I don't know how you go about doing that, so I can't comment on that one way or the other. I will say though, that the various Churches have caused far more harm to gay people than good. If Hitler hadn't happened I'd call them the worst enemy of gay people. So congrats, not as bad as Hitler is the best I can say about some (not all) Churches.