God's opposition to homosexuality. Why?

[RubyEyes]

Kosher animals - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

These rules restrict the permissible seafood to stereotypical fish, prohibiting the unusual forms such as the hagfish, lampreys, eels, and lancelet. In addition, these rules exclude non-fish marine creatures, such as sea cucumbers, crustaceans (lobsters, shrimp, barnacles, crab, prawns, etc.), water molluscs (squid, octopus, oysters, periwinkles, etc.), and the cnids (jellyfish etc.); other creatures living in the sea and rivers that would be prohibited by the rules, but are not normally considered seafood, include the Cetaceans (dolphins, whales, etc.), Crocodilians (Alligators, Crocodiles etc.), Turtles, and all amphibians.

The list seems arbitrary to be from a deity. Shrimps are just fine. Human reasons, maybe, but not divine. (By the way, abomination is also the word used for the food).

If Latin has changed to, say, French over 2000 years, then Hebrew would have changed more in the proposed time, do you believe the language didn't change since the 'first words were spoken' until its first attestation (1000 years BC, so about 3 millennia)? Well, all the framework, in general, including the age of some of the people in the Bible, the Flood, etc, seems to conflict with many scientific models, so I'm not surprised this is another discrepancy.

I disagree with you that God's reasons are incomprehensible. Love seems to be very comprehensible (also very expressive), and to me, what is against equality, is against God. This is why he sent his Son to remind this to us and to redeem humanity. We don't need a book, to me, that is not the creator's style at all. We need heart, reason and common sense.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

No, it doesn't. Because the scientists have already agreed on the first word of the Torah: "B'reishis" which means "In the beginning." The only way linguists would be correct is if we all evolved from apes. But the Torah is clear on this issue: God created the first human being; he did NOT evolve from apes.

OK, thanks. That certainly answers my question. For myself, I prefer a God who is never in conflict with physical evidence and rational thought.

May I ask if that's standard Orthodox belief -- that evolution is false?

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

But you can't tell me to find a way to reconcile what the Torah says clearly about God's view on the matter; He calls it an "abomination." I don't know why He considers it an abomination.

I think you're mistaken. If you'll quote me the scripture -- along with chapter and verse numbers so I can study the surrounding material -- I'll take a shot at reconciling it for you. I'm pretty sure I can show you how to read it in a different way.

 

[Acim]

But surely the message of Christ is no different than anything else in the Bible. I understand that you relate to it and clearly it is the basis for your worldview and you have genuine faith in a loving god but I do not understand how this Jesus is not cherry picked from the same book that condemns homosexuals to hell. It is too simplistic to say that the "good bits" are god and the "bad bits" are men.

This sort of quote speaks to me with regard to what is the title of this thread. Discernment tells me that my general outlook on prophecy and that of AmbiousGuy are not really different. That doesn't mean we would agree on everything, as I'm sure we could have some fairly juicy disagreements if that is desired.

But it is important to realize, I think, that some believers (most that I know) are not 'stuck' on idea that God in bibles (from thousands of years ago) is the only messages of Divinity that we have available to us. All of us. And yet, I see agnostic / atheist types that assume all believers are essentially coming from that paradigm. IMO, there is a sense of ignorance at work to believe that, and is not unlike that of the fundamentalist who thinks God stopped speaking to humanity when their Prophet / Divine Messenger left this earth.

To what degree a believer believes God / Prophets are speaking to humanity or have spoken, perhaps does vary from individual to individual. Me, I feel pretty confident that God is speaking all the time to us / through us. Perhaps "all the time" is a bit of overstatement, but I come down on that side of the equation than one that suggests there are at most x amount of "Holy Books" ever recorded (where x equals no more than say 100). With discernment, I can very much hear (what I call) Spirit speaking through a self identified atheist to me (and all who care to listen). I don't always hear or listen in this way, but I find it is plausible and even logical when opening mind / awareness up to what Revelation really is.

So, back on topic, if asking a believer to limit understanding to only OT or NT verses that express some sense of detesting homosexuality, to explain why (that) God holds that position, it can be challenging. Though possible, as I've attempted, more than once in this thread, to address specifically what context of the verses is actually purporting, rather than cherry picking certain passages and aligning that to one's own agenda (i.e. homosexuality is wrong in all circumstances and cannot be seen as good from any religious perspective).

At the same time, if you are atheist type who is honestly interested in seeking what all or other believers believe on this topic, then perhaps you won't limit some of us to OT renditions of "what God thinks." Because there are fairly popular Divine Messages in even last 50 years (all of which would be deemed heresy by old school fundamentalists), which address the topic of sexuality (homo, hetero, other) in much more direct terms, and with far more modern understandings of the issue. I'm not entirely shy about what those other books / messages are, but at same time, I trust anyone reading this will come to 'what's around' when they are truly ready. If it strikes you as 'false teaching,' I don't suggest you walk away from it, but instead run. Up to you though, and I would urge you to keep open mind, with confidence in your own brand of discernment.

 

[crocusj]

This sort of quote speaks to me with regard to what is the title of this thread. Discernment tells me that my general outlook on prophecy and that of AmbiousGuy are not really different. That doesn't mean we would agree on everything, as I'm sure we could have some fairly juicy disagreements if that is desired.

But it is important to realize, I think, that some believers (most that I know) are not 'stuck' on idea that God in bibles (from thousands of years ago) is the only messages of Divinity that we have available to us. All of us. And yet, I see agnostic / atheist types that assume all believers are essentially coming from that paradigm. IMO, there is a sense of ignorance at work to believe that, and is not unlike that of the fundamentalist who thinks God stopped speaking to humanity when their Prophet / Divine Messenger left this earth.

To what degree a believer believes God / Prophets are speaking to humanity or have spoken, perhaps does vary from individual to individual. Me, I feel pretty confident that God is speaking all the time to us / through us. Perhaps "all the time" is a bit of overstatement, but I come down on that side of the equation than one that suggests there are at most x amount of "Holy Books" ever recorded (where x equals no more than say 100). With discernment, I can very much hear (what I call) Spirit speaking through a self identified atheist to me (and all who care to listen). I don't always hear or listen in this way, but I find it is plausible and even logical when opening mind / awareness up to what Revelation really is.

So, back on topic, if asking a believer to limit understanding to only OT or NT verses that express some sense of detesting homosexuality, to explain why (that) God holds that position, it can be challenging. Though possible, as I've attempted, more than once in this thread, to address specifically what context of the verses is actually purporting, rather than cherry picking certain passages and aligning that to one's own agenda (i.e. homosexuality is wrong in all circumstances and cannot be seen as good from any religious perspective).

At the same time, if you are atheist type who is honestly interested in seeking what all or other believers believe on this topic, then perhaps you won't limit some of us to OT renditions of "what God thinks." Because there are fairly popular Divine Messages in even last 50 years (all of which would be deemed heresy by old school fundamentalists), which address the topic of sexuality (homo, hetero, other) in much more direct terms, and with far more modern understandings of the issue. I'm not entirely shy about what those other books / messages are, but at same time, I trust anyone reading this will come to 'what's around' when they are truly ready. If it strikes you as 'false teaching,' I don't suggest you walk away from it, but instead run. Up to you though, and I would urge you to keep open mind, with confidence in your own brand of discernment.

So it is still god telling you homosexuality is now to be tolerated, just a more modern version. I don't follow modern religion so I know nothing of popular "Divine Messages", I could ask you to explain but why should you knowing I would be unlikely to care. These sort of things are for believers. However, I do find it pertinent that this god becomes more in tune with modern human values as a parallel to these values and again, only for some.
I also think it is unfair to take the Bible out of the equation. Quoting hoary old texts may seem like a cheap shot to you but these texts are there, that these texts are at least inspired by god I am sure is believed by the majority (it is a holy book not just a book) and that these texts have caused untold suffering throughout the world and through the ages is without any doubt. That makes them fair game to me. Obviously I do not really believe they are the word of a god (clearly they are the words of men and men with an agenda) and perhaps we have a go just for the fun of it and not to learn but words are powerful things and these words have resonated for millennia and they are still very prevalent in our world today. I see obviously good people in this thread who have taken a god of love into a modern time but, to me, that goodness is to their credit not a gods.
Perhaps the job of questioning the dubious morals in the OT should not be that of the non-believer but of the believer and not just on a personal level.

 

[javajo]

Mm mm mm, I just love super hot and spicy pork rinds! Man are they delish! So, if I believe for a minute that OT law applies to this NT gentile, than everytime I eat my beloved pork rinds, I would have to be considered unclean, and go 'outside the camp' and do the ritual bathing, etc. be checked by the priest or whatnot, etc. before I could be let back into the general population or whatnot, whatever...Now we all can see that's just plane silly psycho-talk.

I read in the NT where it says,"But keep away from foolish disagreements. Don't argue about family histories. Don't make trouble. Don't fight about what the law teaches. Don't argue about things like that. It doesn't do any good. It doesn't help anyone." Titus 3:9 . I would emphasize "don't fight about what the law teaches", as this is where so many people fall into error. Jesus himself said to love God and each other and that fulfills all the law and the prophets (OT).

If one is interested, reading Titus 3 in its whole context may shed even more light...

 

[Yanni]

Eating shrimps only has validity there and then, too?

No. Eating shrimp is forbidden in every generation to us; it is not bound by place or time.

 

[Yanni]

If Latin has changed to, say, French over 2000 years, then Hebrew would have changed more in the proposed time, do you believe the language didn't change since the 'first words were spoken' until its first attestation (1000 years BC, so about 3 millennia)? Well, all the framework, in general, including the age of some of the people in the Bible, the Flood, etc, seems to conflict with many scientific models, so I'm not surprised this is another discrepancy.

The language of the Torah (as I mentioned before) is God's language, and modern day Hebrew is based on the same grammatical principles as the language in the Torah. So the original Hebrew hasn't changed at all; we just added different words to the language.

 

[Yanni]

Just one more point. I have been asked why I believe in "this junk" of believing the laws of the Torah as being the Word of a living God. Let me make something clear. Judaism is the ONLY religion in the world that has made a claim that God revealed Himself on Mount Sinai to THE ENTIRE JEWISH NATION, which was roughly about 3 million people. All 3 million people (men, women, and children) all heard God speak to them. Now if someone can name me another religion who has a similar claim, please do so. But I guarantee you there isn't, because most other religions are based on the testimony of ONE or A FEW men who CLAIMED God spoke to them and revealed His Word to them. But why didn't any other religion claim that God revealed His Word to THE WHOLE nation? The answer is simple. Because no one can convince millions of people that they were all present at a specific event, all at the same time and place, unless it ACTUALLY HAPPENED. We are a unique nation in that we are the ONLY nation who has made this claim in history. And if God really wanted to exchange us, why didn't He reveal Himself to His ENTIRE new nation? Simple. Because He promised Abraham that the Jewish people would never be destroyed (which is why through all the wanderings and persecutions and annihilation attempts on our existence, we are still here), and that He would NEVER exchange us for another people.
THIS is why I maintain my position on God's view of homosexuality, because I have a very sound basis for my views.
You want proof that God exists? Our existence has defied all the laws of "natural" history (like the strong is supposed to defeat the weak). The IMPOSSIBILITY of the existence of the Jewish nation today is the best proof there is.

Did NO ONE see this post of mine above? I'm shocked that no one has tried refuting my post yet.

 

[waitasec]

Did NO ONE see this post of mine above? I'm shocked that no one has tried refuting my post yet.

because no one wants to go on that merry go round...
it's circular reasoning.

 

[Yanni]

because no one wants to go on that merry go round...
it's circular reasoning.

ohhhhh, right.

 

[Yanni]

Or is it because I just presented an argument that no one was prepared for.

 

[Acim]

Okay, I'll bite. Though I'll apologize to OP and readers of this thread if it is way off topic, but I did feel compelled to answer the call.

Our Torah (or the Christian "Old Testament"), according to our firm belief, was DICTATED to Moses by God Himself on Mount Sinai at the Giving of the Torah. The Torah was AUTHORED by God Himself, even before Creation. To our faith, the Torah is sort of the "blueprint" of Creation. Everything that ever happened or will happen is hidden in the Torah's words, which is the sacred ancient Hebrew, the language God used to create the world and the very first language ever spoken. Moses wrote the Five Books of Moses; but EVERY SINGLE WORD was authored by God and therefore the Divine origin of the Torah cannot be questioned.

I feel somewhat familiar with Judaism and Torah. Perhaps on scale of 100, around 8%, conservatively speaking. The claims in this first part, especially the part about "every single word was authored by God" is precisely what I've heard Muslims on this forum assert about Islam / Mohammed (PBUH).

Just one more point. I have been asked why I believe in "this junk" of believing the laws of the Torah as being the Word of a living God. Let me make something clear. Judaism is the ONLY religion in the world that has made a claim that God revealed Himself on Mount Sinai to THE ENTIRE JEWISH NATION, which was roughly about 3 million people. All 3 million people (men, women, and children) all heard God speak to them. Now if someone can name me another religion who has a similar claim, please do so. But I guarantee you there isn't, because most other religions are based on the testimony of ONE or A FEW men who CLAIMED God spoke to them and revealed His Word to them. But why didn't any other religion claim that God revealed His Word to THE WHOLE nation? The answer is simple. Because no one can convince millions of people that they ALL heard the Word of God unless it ACTUALLY happened. We are a unique nation in that we are ONLY nation who has made this claim in history.

This is the point I would like to challenge you on. Are you saying there are 3 million accounts written by individuals in the Torah and/or other scriptural texts? I'll go out on proverbial limb and say that I don't believe you are claiming this. But instead are saying that there is (more or less) one account that states the Word was heard by the whole nation. Yes?

That is one account that seems heavily biased, and not something that is verifiable to us today, or is it?

Like if I scribe a book that is authored by God (every single word) and in there God says, "I am now speaking to the whole world. All 7.36 billion people alive in middle of the year 2011. All of you are to hear this message." And then I publish the book, and magically sell (or distribute) 7.36 billion copies, read by one and all, would that not be God speaking to the whole world?

I realize copies logic I'm using is different than what Torah is claiming, but let's say God also said in the text I scribed, that when She said, "I am NOW speaking to the whole world" it was to be understood as transcending how we conceive of copies. That when each person 'heard' that message, it was to be understood, according to God, as "all our hearing Her Voice" through the mighty power of printed word and pages. And not until then, in all of human history, had God spoken to all of humanity in that way. Therefore my book is special. And needs to have a religion established around it, that puts it on a pedestal above all other books. Again, since every single word was authored by the one true God. And also note that all 7.36 billion people are still alive as you are reading these words, so it shows that the message cannot be wrong, since they have survived this long. Even alive until the end of this post. In fact, come back a week from now, read this post again, and you'll see that at least 7 billion of those people are still alive, which further proves God spoke to all of us, in a very special way. In my book. The new religion.

Available for just 5 easy payments of $19.95, plus shipping and handling.

 

[waitasec]

Or is it because I just presented an argument that no one was prepared for.

only in your mind...

 

[waitasec]

Available for just 5 easy payments of $19.95, plus shipping and handling.

that's it?

 

[Yanni]

Okay, I'll bite. Though I'll apologize to OP and readers of this thread if it is way off topic, but I did feel compelled to answer the call.



I feel somewhat familiar with Judaism and Torah. Perhaps on scale of 100, around 8%, conservatively speaking. The claims in this first part, especially the part about "every single word was authored by God" is precisely what I've heard Muslims on this forum assert about Islam / Mohammed (PBUH).



This is the point I would like to challenge you on. Are you saying there are 3 million accounts written by individuals in the Torah and/or other scriptural texts? I'll go out on proverbial limb and say that I don't believe you are claiming this. But instead are saying that there is (more or less) one account that states the Word was heard by the whole nation. Yes?

That is one account that seems heavily biased, and not something that is verifiable to us today, or is it?

Like if I scribe a book that is authored by God (every single word) and in there God says, "I am now speaking to the whole world. All 7.36 billion people alive in middle of the year 2011. All of you are to hear this message." And then I publish the book, and magically sell (or distribute) 7.36 billion copies, read by one and all, would that not be God speaking to the whole world?

I realize copies logic I'm using is different than what Torah is claiming, but let's say God also said in the text I scribed, that when She said, "I am NOW speaking to the whole world" it was to be understood as transcending how we conceive of copies. That when each person 'heard' that message, it was to be understood, according to God, as "all our hearing Her Voice" through the mighty power of printed word and pages. And not until then, in all of human history, had God spoken to all of humanity in that way. Therefore my book is special. And needs to have a religion established around it, that puts it on a pedestal above all other books. Again, since every single word was authored by the one true God. And also note that all 7.36 billion people are still alive as you are reading these words, so it shows that the message cannot be wrong, since they have survived this long. Even alive until the end of this post. In fact, come back a week from now, read this post again, and you'll see that at least 7 billion of those people are still alive, which further proves God spoke to all of us, in a very special way. In my book. The new religion.

Available for just 5 easy payments of $19.95, plus shipping and handling.

Well, I think you forgot something. Would anyone buy such a book that claims they all experienced something at the same time when perhaps they didn't? At the time you claim everyone heard the voice of God (Who, for some reason, you believe to have a gender and is female), 3/4 of the world can counterclaim and say they were all at business meetings at that time. But that one text (the Torah) that states the entire Jewish nation heard God's Voice all at the same time and at the same location couldn't have been the text that "deceived" all those gullible Jews who for generations have been passing down this tradition? Maybe half of the people at the time were fishing at the moment the Torah claims God spoke to the entire Jewish nation. And by the way, that one text that supposedly deceived the Jews is the same text that promises the Jews that they would never be destroyed and would last eternally. Folklore? I highly doubt it.

 

[RubyEyes]

No. Eating shrimp is forbidden in every generation to us; it is not bound by place or time.

Thanks for admitting it then. I think eating shrimps is just fine, the rule seems arbitrary and nonsensical, like many others (it makes no harm). And many OT believing Christians, I think, eat shrimps. I don't know whether you eat it or not, but that's your choice.

The language of the Torah (as I mentioned before) is God's language, and modern day Hebrew is based on the same grammatical principles as the language in the Torah. So the original Hebrew hasn't changed at all; we just added different words to the language.

Languages vary in that time in much more areas other than vocabulary, don't think grammar is incorruptible, that is naive in linguistics. As I said, you have Latin to French in 2 millennia, a fully operating case system to a language that barely marks the plural in speech, and has lost one grammatical gender. Or a new inventory of nasal sounds (like Portuguese too). That I think is the incredible part of the story.

PD: I won't reply soon because I'll be off some days.

 

[averageJOE]

Did NO ONE see this post of mine above? I'm shocked that no one has tried refuting my post yet.

3 million people still think Elvis is alive, that doesn't make it true.

 

[Yanni]

3 million people still think Elvis is alive, that doesn't make it true.

And roughly 12 million Jews are still alive who technically shouldn't be alive. Can that be explained by natural means and/or science? (Just going around in a circle here.) Yes, but do those 3 million people claim that they were all present at the SAME location and at the SAME time and that Elvis spoke to them or held a concert for them and the media didn't notice? I highly doubt it.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

Did NO ONE see this post of mine above? I'm shocked that no one has tried refuting my post yet.

A NT writer claimed that 500 people saw the risen Christ.

But I don't believe that 500 people saw the risen Christ, nor that 3 million Jews were at Sinai.

It's easy to claim stuff about witnesses. I think 100 million Jews at Sinai would have been more convincing, though.