God's opposition to homosexuality. Why?

[Yanni]

As for the ego/prophet thing, the very definition of a prophet is something like “a guy who subsumes his own will/ego to the will of God.” We’re all prophets in the sense that we all believe our own views of life and God are the correct ones. But the truer prophets are the ones who love God truth more than they love their own.

I don't know where you got that definition of a prophet from, but according to Judaism, prophecy ended more than 2,000 years ago with the destruction of the Second Temple in Jerusalem. A prophet is actually someone who heard the Word of God directly from Him in either a dream or a trans. The only prophet who conversed with God while being fully conscious was Moses. There were actually thousands of prophets in the old days. The only prophets mentioned in Tanach are those who had a specific message for the Jewish people.
This is what a "prophet" is.

 

[Yanni]

Yep. And I think a major problem is that some people are trying to adhere to an ancient text, written during more primitive times, rather than simply listening to God directly.

I'm sure the OT God wanted the Jews to increase. So masturbation and homosexuality were condemned.

But we don't live in that world anymore.

Actually, the laws in the Torah are eternal, and the Torah itself warns us that we may neither add new laws nor detract from the already existing laws. The Torah also warned us (and I mean this in no way as an offense to Christians) about listening to someone who claimed to be a prophet but told the Jews to alter the laws of the Torah. That is why the Jews didn't accept Jesus, because he said some things that were contrary to the Torah, like when he said, "Let the dead bury the dead." We have a law that a relative is required to bury his/her departed loved one.
If one will ask me, "but what about those certain laws you don't keep today," (whatever they may be), I will answer that there are certain laws that only apply in the Land of Israel and certain laws that only apply if we have a standing Temple, and other laws that apply in times of war, and other laws that apply in seasons, etc.

 

[RubyEyes]

If one will ask me, "but what about those certain laws you don't keep today," (whatever they may be), I will answer that there are certain laws that only apply in the Land of Israel and certain laws that only apply if we have a standing Temple, and other laws that apply in times of war, and other laws that apply in seasons, etc.

Eating shrimps only has validity there and then, too?

 

[Yanni]

I am sure that reproductive lovemaking is approved and encouraged by God, but why should other forms of sex be denied or restricted? That doesn't follow. They don't harm anybody, and I'm sure if our maker wanted us to have sex only for reproduction He would give us a season for doing so like for example dogs or other animals. But we are sexually capable any time of the year. This can't mean God forbids using our body to fulfil its natural urges, to me, that is tyrannic.



I agree. We now live in a society where, at least in my area, people don't start having children until 25-35, some even later, and very few earlier. Are we supposed to be chaste until then? Come on, God has angels for that. We're humans. Some people mistake this distinction.

You see, that's exactly what God doesn't want us to do. We are human beings, not animals. We are on a higher plane than animals. Animals only follow their instinct. They don't have the ability to raise themselves to a higher, holy level. God wants us to become angelic (not literally, of course) by abstaining from our nature (in some, but not all, areas). For example, if one eats a hamberger sandwich, with lettuce, tomatoes, onions, whatever, he can pretty much fulfill his appetite. But does he need 5 burgers on one piece of bread? Does he need to open his mouth so wide that he hurts his jaws? Human beings are supposed to be dignified people. The animals can do whatever they want; they can copulate whenever their instinct tells them to. That's part of the way God made them. But they don't have the ability to earn eternal reward, because they don't really have free will. If we were no different from animals, then we should really have sex with anyone we see on the street who attracts us. Are they females with whom to copulate with, or women who have dignity? What God expects from us is to transcend the instinct world and prove that we're different from animals and when we DON'T give in to our instincts and rather obey the will of God, that's when God says, "Well done, my son. Here is your gift."
Yes, God allows us to have sex. But its gotta be in a way that's different from animals. Being dignified is finding a partner who you are willing to consecrate to yourself, thereby making her forbidden to any other man, and that's true love. When you love your partner not mainly because of the pleasure she gives you, but because of the person that she is. Her body is not her essence; it's her personality and her soul, which lives on.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

The Bible is a collection of books, and they were picked by the first Fathers of Christianity. Some books were excluded, and some were not. If humans could do this task before (and s/he seems to agree on this), why can't we do so now too?

Good question. I think that lots of people crave immutable Truth and just can’t live without it. The idea that truth can change is too scary.

So I see the problem as being within ourselves. We need to learn to embrace ambiguity and uncertainty. Worshipping the words of our ancestors can’t be the best path to a living God.

But writing a new Bible is a good idea. I vote for including much more poetry and parable and a lot less law. If we must have a Bible, it should be as vague as possible – a Book to inspire us rather than to explain us.

 

[Yanni]

This is precisely where Judaism and Christianity differ in a very fundamental way. Our Torah (or the Christian "Old Testament"), according to our firm belief, was DICTATED to Moses by God Himself on Mount Sinai at the Giving of the Torah. The Torah was AUTHORED by God Himself, even before Creation. To our faith, the Torah is sort of the "blueprint" of Creation. Everything that ever happened or will happen is hidden in the Torah's words, which is the sacred ancient Hebrew, the language God used to create the world and the very first language ever spoken. Moses wrote the Five Books of Moses; but EVERY SINGLE WORD was authored by God and therefore the Divine origin of the Torah cannot be questioned.
Just one more point. I have been asked why I believe in "this junk" of believing the laws of the Torah as being the Word of a living God. Let me make something clear. Judaism is the ONLY religion in the world that has made a claim that God revealed Himself on Mount Sinai to THE ENTIRE JEWISH NATION, which was roughly about 3 million people. All 3 million people (men, women, and children) all heard God speak to them. Now if someone can name me another religion who has a similar claim, please do so. But I guarantee you there isn't, because most other religions are based on the testimony of ONE or A FEW men who CLAIMED God spoke to them and revealed His Word to them. But why didn't any other religion claim that God revealed His Word to THE WHOLE nation? The answer is simple. Because no one can convince millions of people that they ALL heard the Word of God unless it ACTUALLY happened. We are a unique nation in that we are ONLY nation who has made this claim in history. And if God really wanted to exchange us, why didn't He reveal Himself to His ENTIRE new nation? Simple. Because He promised Abraham that the Jewish people would never be destroyed (which is why through all the wanderings and persecutions and annihilation attempts on our existence, we are still here), and that He would NEVER exchange us for another people.
THIS is why I maintain my position on God's view of homosexuality, because I have a very sound basis for my views.
You want proof that God exists? The IMPOSSIBILITY of the existence of the Jewish nation today is the best proof there is.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

Everything that ever happened or will happen is hidden in the Torah's words, which is the sacred ancient Hebrew, the language God used to create the world and the very first language ever spoken.

Hi, Yanni. Does it bother you that scientists disagree with you on this point? I'm just curious -- not trying to start a fight.

I assume that you believe, as a faith article, that Adam and Eve spoke ancient Hebrew -- and it doesn't bother you that linguists would disagree with that belief?

 

[RubyEyes]

You see, that's exactly what God doesn't want us to do.

We disagree then.

We are human beings, not animals. We are on a higher plane than animals. Animals only follow their instinct. They don't have the ability to raise themselves to a higher, holy level.

Well, humans are animals, to begin. Yes, they don't merely follow their instincs. They have the ability to rationalize certain things. For example, if a piece of paper tells you eating shrimps is against God's will, then that certainly is misleading. Too ridiculous to be from the creator.

God wants us to become angelic (not literally, of course) by abstaining from our nature (in some, but not all, areas).

God wants angels to be angelic, and humans to be human. I don't have any need to be so incoherent with the reality I see. It's just perfectly reasonable that if God wanted only angelic beings, he would have created angels. Humans have their own way and nature. What we have to do is abstaining from harming others and from evil, but that which is innocuous can't be evil.

For example, if one eats a hamberger sandwich, with lettuce, tomatoes, onions, whatever, he can pretty much fulfill his appetite. But does he need 5 burgers on one piece of bread? Does he need to open his mouth so wide that he hurts his jaws? Human beings are supposed to be dignified people.

It's not about overusing or exaggerating to a point where it harms, because that exceeds the natural urge. When we need no more food, we lose hunger, and eating becomes gluttony. This is precisely the point - we're made in a way that having sex is never 'overusing'. If you don't know, sperm regenerates, and so 'wasting your seed' is a unrealistic. Human sexuality is complex and useable for many things beyond reproduction. We know better now than those lawmakers about human nature and consequently can do better inferring God's will.

The animals can do whatever they want; they can copulate whenever their instinct tells them to. That's part of the way God made them. But they don't have the ability to earn eternal reward, because they don't really have free will.

I'm not so certain that no animal has a soul, and therefore, that they can't enjoy the afterlife. We're on a different level, yes, but everything seems to play a part in God's creation and we can't pretend to know better than God.

If we were no different from animals, then we should really have sex with anyone we see on the street who attracts us. Are they females with whom to copulate with, or women who have dignity?

You seem to think a person has dignity when they are repressed. It's not about going around having sex with everybody, but in a situation when there is attraction and love, I don't see why not. That seems to be how we work.

What God expects from us is to transcend the instinct world and prove that we're different from animals and when we DON'T give in to our instincts and rather obey the will of God, that's when God says, "Well done, my son. Here is your gift."

God making some people homosexual and some people very sexually active does not make me think He wants them to be frustrated. It makes me think He made us like that, and as long as we don't cause harm, I need something else to think otherwise.

God is not capricious or malicious. If he made us able to be hungry, it's because he wants us to eat, because that is our nature. He doesn't want us to 'transcend' food and neglect the necessities of our human bodies. Extend this principle.

Yes, God allows us to have sex. But its gotta be in a way that's different from animals. Being dignified is finding a partner who you are willing to consecrate to yourself, thereby making her forbidden to any other man, and that's true love. When you love your partner not mainly because of the pleasure she gives you, but because of the person that she is. Her body is not her essence; it's her personality and her soul, which lives on.

Very poetic and beautiful. Yes, animals don't love as far as I know like humans do. That should be enough. That does not mean we have to frustrate ourselves beyond the reasonable. Just like we don't have to starve.

 

[RubyEyes]

This is precisely where Judaism and Christianity differ in a very fundamental way. Our Torah (or the Christian "Old Testament"), according to our firm belief, was DICTATED to Moses by God Himself on Mount Sinai at the Giving of the Torah. The Torah was AUTHORED by God Himself, even before Creation. To our faith, the Torah is sort of the "blueprint" of Creation. Everything that ever happened or will happen is hidden in the Torah's words, which is the sacred ancient Hebrew, the language God used to create the world and the very first language ever spoken. Moses wrote the Five Books of Moses; but EVERY SINGLE WORD was authored by God and therefore the Divine origin of the Torah cannot be questioned.

I disagree, since like AmbiguousGuy pointed out, this seems to conflict with many things I know about this world.

 

[crocusj]

That is simplistic, but I'm not doing that.

I can clearly see a difference on the 'Jesus bits' and OT's Leviticus. The latter is a book that is most likely the law of an ancient society, and there it remains.

The former, to me, and to many people, is a transcendent event: so transcendent that it's today the largest faith in the world. If the Bible didn't exist, I would still believe in Christ, because since He came to Earth His followers have transmitted themselves the message, in person, in faith, in the Church, in the community, and in the spirit, and I personally feel Christ.

The Son of God's come to Earth is not comparable to some society's laws. Christ is the true axis of Christianity.

Ok, though I would doubt if the majority of this largest faith you talk of would be as quick as yourself to dismiss the OT. Indeed, I would suggest that the primary reason many non believers attack your god is because of the suffering caused by the majority interpretation and/or influence of same OT. Perhaps Jesus should have added a positive appendix to his message refuting all that was not love there. And since he came to earth his followers may have done what you describe but they have also done terrible things. Your god may not be ambiguous but this is not immediately obvious to those of us who do not follow him, those of us who see the actions of those who do. Are we expected not only to interpret his supposed word but also to decipher the actions of his followers also. Confusing business this god stuff.

 

[Yanni]

Hi, Yanni. Does it bother you that scientists disagree with you on this point? I'm just curious -- not trying to start a fight.

I assume that you believe, as a faith article, that Adam and Eve spoke ancient Hebrew -- and it doesn't bother you that linguists would disagree with that belief?

No, it doesn't. Because the scientists have already agreed on the first word of the Torah: "B'reishis" which means "In the beginning." The only way linguists would be correct is if we all evolved from apes. But the Torah is clear on this issue: God created the first human being; he did NOT evolve from apes.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

Hi, Yanni. I missed this message earlier because my quoteback wasn't set off in a box. Do you realize now that you need to end a quote with this item: [/quote]

There's a thread in the Intro Section about quoting which I found very useful.

I don't know where you got that definition of a prophet from, but according to Judaism, prophecy ended more than 2,000 years ago with the destruction of the Second Temple in Jerusalem.

OK. But I'm not Jewish. I have no belief that prophecy ended in olden times. Prophecy is alive and well even today. And I believe that modern prophecy tends to more truly reflect God's will, since we've learned so much more about the world than the OT prophets knew about. Just my personal view of it, of course.

A prophet is actually someone who heard the Word of God directly from Him in either a dream or a trans. The only prophet who conversed with God while being fully conscious was Moses. There were actually thousands of prophets in the old days. The only prophets mentioned in Tanach are those who had a specific message for the Jewish people. This is what a "prophet" is.

Well, no. That is Yanni's definition of a prophet. In my opinion, my own definition is more coherent and useful, but I'll be glad to discuss that issue with you if we want to start a new thread about it. It seems to be pretty far off-point for this thread.

 

[RubyEyes]

Ok, though I would doubt if the majority of this largest faith
you talk of would be as quick as yourself to dismiss the OT.

But be aware that none would dismiss Jesus.

Indeed, I would suggest that the primary reason many non believers attack your god is because of the suffering caused by the majority interpretation and/or influence of same OT. Perhaps Jesus should have added a positive appendix to his message refuting all that was not love there. And since he came to earth his followers may have done what you describe but they have also done terrible things. Your god may not be ambiguous but this is not immediately obvious to those of us who do not follow him, those of us who see the actions of those who do. Are we expected not only to interpret his supposed word but also to decipher the actions of his followers also. Confusing business this god stuff.

Yes, I acknowledge that and I know what you talk about. The Church has committed many errors, but God will forgive, and it's never too late to fix those errors. I do my best to deliever what I think is the best picture of God's will.

 

[Yanni]

Actually, RubyEyes, shrimp is not Kosher. And I NEVER said God doesn't want us to eat. I said God doesn't want us to eat in an undignified way, like eating hotdogs at a hotdog eating contest. God doesn't want us to do that. How do I know? Because that's what I learned in various Jewish ethical texts.

 

[RubyEyes]

No, it doesn't. Because the scientists have already agreed on the first word of the Torah: "B'reishis" which means "In the beginning." The only way linguists would be correct is if we all evolved from apes. But the Torah is clear on this issue: God created the first human being; he did NOT evolve from apes.

I think what he meant is that Adam and Eve, in their time (how far back?), would not have spoken Hebrew but some other older language, because of, you know, language evolution (for example like Latin to Portuguese).

Linguists won't talk about apes, linguists talk about languages. But just for the record, we're apes under the current definition of ape (primate).

 

[RubyEyes]

Actually, RubyEyes, shrimp is not Kosher. And I NEVER said God doesn't want us to eat. I said God doesn't want us to eat in an undignified way, like eating hotdogs at a hotdog eating contest. God doesn't want us to do that. How do I know? Because that's what I learned in various Jewish ethical texts.

Leviticus 11:9-12:
9 These shall ye eat of all that are in the waters: whatsoever hath fins and scales in the waters, in the seas, and in the rivers, them shall ye eat.
10 And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you:
11 They shall be even an abomination unto you; ye shall not eat of their flesh, but ye shall have their carcases in abomination.
12 Whatsoever hath no fins nor scales in the waters, that shall be an abomination unto you.

Deuteronomy 14:9-10:
9 These ye shall eat of all that are in the waters: all that have fins and scales shall ye eat:
10 And whatsoever hath not fins and scales ye may not eat; it is unclean unto you.

It seems well forbidden.

The distinction you offer about 'dignity' seems to imply assuming the consequent. You substract dignity from that which you think is not a proper usage of the nature, neglecting the fact that the nature acts the way it does and not in another one because we're simply that way. Then you offer this as a reason to think it's not the proper nature.

 

[AmbiguousGuy]

Actually, the laws in the Torah are eternal, and the Torah itself warns us that we may neither add new laws nor detract from the already existing laws.

Not to offend, but I believe this outlook is the root of the problem concerning such things as one's beliefs about homosexuality.

Gays harm no one. Homosexual sex acts neither pick my pocket nor break my arm (as Jefferson, I think, might put it).

Aside from the Yuck-factor, there is no reasonable reason to dislike homosexuality. If your Book tells you otherwise, I think you should work to find some way to reconcile your holy writings with a loving attitude toward homosexuals. There's always a way to do that if we can overcome our rigid belief in the literality of the words.

 

[Yanni]

Hi, Yanni. I missed this message earlier because my quoteback wasn't set off in a box. Do you realize now that you need to end a quote with this item:

There's a thread in the Intro Section about quoting which I found very useful.



OK. But I'm not Jewish. I have no belief that prophecy ended in olden times. Prophecy is alive and well even today. And I believe that modern prophecy tends to more truly reflect God's will, since we've learned so much more about the world than the OT prophets knew about. Just my personal view of it, of course.
[/quote]

Actually, I will argue with that. In our Mishnah, which was written about 2,000 years ago, the Sages, when teaching us about the laws of Kosher fish, made a statement that there is no fish in the world that only has scales but no fins. Fish can have fins but no scales. But no fish with just scales exists. Now, they didn't have scientific technology back then to make that determination; and no one man could go under sea way down to the bottom of the ocean and observe all the fish down there. The Sages made this statement because they were told that by heaven through Divine Inspiration (God, of course, knows way more than any scientist).
Plus, (and this may not be so strong of an argument), in our sacred texts written thousands of years ago, we acknowledge God's strength by stating that He supports the world on nothingness. They didn't have powerful telescopes 2,000 years ago. How did they know that the Earth isn't resting on some stool or something? Because they were told that through Divine Inspiration (and prophecy). There is more to a molecule that science. Every dimension of the universe has a spiritual force that guides it. Yes, science has told us a lot, but they have still not yet been courageous enough to state to the world that the complexity of our universe begs the world to recognize that there MUST be a Creator.

 

[Yanni]

I think what he meant is that Adam and Eve, in their time (how far back?).

According to the Jewish calendar, we are in the year 5771 since Adam and Eve (since the first man existed).

 

[Yanni]

Not to offend, but I believe this outlook is the root of the problem concerning such things as one's beliefs about homosexuality.

Gays harm no one. Homosexual sex acts neither pick my pocket nor break my arm (as Jefferson, I think, might put it).

Aside from the Yuck-factor, there is no reasonable reason to dislike homosexuality. If your Book tells you otherwise, I think you should work to find some way to reconcile your holy writings with a loving attitude toward homosexuals. There's always a way to do that if we can overcome our rigid belief in the literality of the words.

Exactly how God said it is exactly how HE holds of it. It doesn't matter one iota what we humans think of homosexuality. If we believed for a moment that murder should be okay, it wouldn't matter if the whole world fought for the right to murder. God says one may not murder. God says one may not have anal sex with another man. It's as simple as that. Now I can't prevent two men from having anal sex; I have no authority over them. But you can't tell me to find a way to reconcile what the Torah says clearly about God's view on the matter; He calls it an "abomination." I don't know why He considers it an abomination. There are a lot of things about the world and God that we will never understand. But God is God, and every heartbeat we have and every breath we take is a direct result of His mercy, and everything we own is a direct gift from Him. God's owes us NOTHING. WE owe God for EVERYTHING.