God's opposition to homosexuality. Why?

[AmbiguousGuy]

Yes, but do those 3 million people claim that they were all present at the SAME location and at the SAME time and that Elvis spoke to them or held a concert for them and the media didn't notice? I highly doubt it.

No. And neither did 3 million Jews make claims about being at Sinai.

 

[Acim]

Well, I think you forgot something. Would anyone buy such a book that claims they all experienced something at the same time when perhaps they didn't? At the time you claim everyone heard the voice of God (Who, for some reason, you believe to have a gender and is female), 3/4 of the world can counterclaim and say they were all at business meetings at that time.

I covered this retort in what I explained earlier.
It is similar to logic of, "I intended for you to read this sentence now." If everybody reads that "now" then all will have read it at (relatively) the same "time."

But that one text (the Torah) that states the entire Jewish nation heard God's Voice all at the same time and at the same location couldn't have been the text that "deceived" all those gullible Jews who for generations have been passing down this tradition?

There are holes though to be poked. Such that if large booming voice was heard from the sky today, and it said something akin to, "all those people in Syria, and/or around Syria, are the Chosen ones." Well, we'd have all people that heard that, plus a bucketful who didn't hear it, wonder about the source of the sound. Some might conclude it is the one True God. They heard that as well. It said "One True God." How could you have missed that part? It was the most important part. Then, we'd have discussions galore on who's all included in this Chosen People thingy. Cause me in the U.S., I feel "around" Syria, therefore I'm included. Phew. And then there would be perhaps endless debate on what does "Chosen" mean, what does "not Chosen" mean, and when will this Voice come back and speak again to us to perhaps clarify things or follow up on whatever the point of that message actually was for. (Behold, the end is near.)

Maybe half of the people at the time were fishing at the moment the Torah claims God spoke to the entire Jewish nation. And by the way, that one text that supposedly deceived the Jews is the same text that promises the Jews that they would never be destroyed and would last eternally. Folklore? I highly doubt it.

Me, as a believer, I don't think the message was deception. Though interpretation and discernment would have me understand it differently perhaps, I would say more prone to esoteric understanding. As in, life is eternal, please don't forget that even while you may feel persecuted for various reasons, none of which truly matter for those who stand firmly with faith and uphold (honest) Reason.

The Chosen people thing is confusing to me, and while the jury (or Judge) is still out on that one, I am okay granting you the idea that 'hey we've survived this long, must be doing something right,' sort of position. As long as that is not to the exclusion or contention of others who feel equally righteous on this planet (in spreading or sharing Word). And as I understand Judaism, it is not, at all, intended to be exclusionary. I may have some doubts, but I rather that be the sticking point. That Chosen people message is not in any way intended to be exclusionary, even upon deliverance of Word.

I'll also just add that this is not only time God / Divinity has spoken to / through humanity, in my understanding. Word is alive and well. It is arguably only time in that way, but that same argument of uniqueness could be had countless times.

 

[McBell]

because no one wants to go on that merry go round...
it's circular reasoning.

And that is just ONE of the MANY fallacies in that block of text...

 

[McBell]

Or is it because I just presented an argument that no one was prepared for.

Perhaps it is because no one was surprised that you would present an "argument" (and I use the term EXTREMELY lightly) that is nothing more than a list of self ratifying fallacies..?

 

[Yanni]

Perhaps it is because no one was surprised that you would present an "argument" (and I use the term EXTREMELY lightly) that is nothing more than a list of self ratifying fallacies..?

So do you want to give me a better explanation for the illogical continued existence of the Jewish people? (Hey, maybe the Jews had nuclear weapons or something and the Romans only had spears). As Mark Twain said, we have fought empires with our hands tied behind our backs.

 

[McBell]

So do you want to give me a better explanation for the illogical continued existence of the Jewish people? (Hey, maybe the Jews had nuclear weapons or something and the Romans only had spears). As Mark Twain said, we have fought empires with our hands tied behind our backs.

I understand that this may well be a concept that your ego will not allow you to accept even the possibility of, but it is quite possible that none of the "enemies" found the Jews to be anything more than a minor annoyance not worth the time or effort to completely eradicate.

 

[tumbleweed41]

So do you want to give me a better explanation for the illogical continued existence of the Jewish people?

What is illogical about it?
What of the continued existence of the Indian people? The Chinese? the Arabs(also Semitic), the 40,0000 year old Australian Aboriginal population? The Roma?

Your argument makes as much sense and the Islamic stance that the only logical explanation for the Qu'ran is if Allah had dictated it.

 

[waitasec]

So do you want to give me a better explanation for the illogical continued existence of the Jewish people? (Hey, maybe the Jews had nuclear weapons or something and the Romans only had spears). As Mark Twain said, we have fought empires with our hands tied behind our backs.

Romani people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Yanni]

The Chosen people thing is confusing to me, and while the jury (or Judge) is still out on that one, I am okay granting you the idea that 'hey we've survived this long, must be doing something right,' sort of position. As long as that is not to the exclusion or contention of others who feel equally righteous on this planet (in spreading or sharing Word). And as I understand Judaism, it is not, at all, intended to be exclusionary. I may have some doubts, but I rather that be the sticking point. That Chosen people message is not in any way intended to be exclusionary, even upon deliverance of Word.

I'll also just add that this is not only time God / Divinity has spoken to / through humanity, in my understanding. Word is alive and well. It is arguably only time in that way, but that same argument of uniqueness could be had countless times.

Okay, so let me explain the "Chosen People" thing. According to our tradition, God actually presented Torah to the other nations of the world (before the Jews were even given it). The nations all asked God to tell them what's in it first. When God mentioned that they couldn't murder (and remember, people were more primitive back then; they weren't democratic thinkers who cared about human rights), those nations prone to killing for sport (and believe me, people were like that back then) couldn't accept the Torah. When God presented it to another nation and the nation asked what's in it, God told them they can't be sexually immoral (which includes adultery, incest, homosexuality, etc). They couldn't alter their way of life. However, when God presented the Torah to the Jews at Mount Sinai, they all said in unison "We will do and we will listen," meaning they didn't even request to be told what they were accepting. They said they will "do," or obey, and only then will they listen to what their new responsibilities were. So, technically, we were the "choosing" nation, and thus became God's "Chosen" Nation (not chosen in the sense that every other nation will be doomed to be wiped off the face of the earth or something; as I've said previously, Judaism is not like other religions in that regard; we believe ALL people, even if not Jewish, have a special place in the World to Come). The Jewish task was always to disseminate a knowledge of an existence of One, Singular God Who created and sustains this world with His perfect benevolence, and to spread morality throughout the primitive world that didn't have it. The United States of America was founded on these morals that the JEWS brought into the world. Take a look at what John Adams himself said:
"I will insist that the Hebrews have done more to civilize men than any other nation...They have given religion to three-quarters of the globe and have influenced the affairs of mankind, more and more happily than any other nation, ancient or modern."
And more proof for the Divine through our existence was something Thomas Newton, the Bishop of Bristol (late 1700s) said:
"The preservation of the Jews is really one of the most signal and illustrious acts of Divine Providence...and what but a supernatural power could have preserved them in such a manner as non other nation upon earth has been preserved. Nor is the Providence of God less remarkable in the destruction of their enemies, than in their preservation...We see that the great empires, which in their turn subdues and oppressed the people of God, are all come to ruin...And if such has been the fatal end of the enemies and oppressors of the Jews, let it serve as a warning to all those, who at any time or upon any occasion are for raising a clamor and persecution against them." (Gould, Allan ed., What Did They Think of the Jews? Northvale, NJ: Jason Aronson, 1997, pp. 92-93)
Please don't tell me that Mars or Jupiter has something to do with our survival as a people. Please use common sense.

 

[Yanni]

I understand that this may well be a concept that your ego will not allow you to accept even the possibility of, but it is quite possible that none of the "enemies" found the Jews to be anything more than a minor annoyance not worth the time or effort to completely eradicate.

Really now!? Then maybe you should buy a book on Jewish history and do your homework on the motives of all those persecutors. What do you think the "Final Solution to the Jewish Question" was REALLY all about? The Nazis were more powerful than any of our previous oppressors, and yet, they did NOT succeed at destroying us. How about the fact that we've continued to exist as a nation with the same values in every corner of the world, without having assimilated with the rest of the cultures of the world, huh? It's unique in history. There is no natural explanation for it. You can rationalize from today to tomorrow. The laws of history have been transgressed.

 

[Yanni]

What is illogical about it?
What of the continued existence of the Indian people? The Chinese? the Arabs(also Semitic), the 40,0000 year old Australian Aboriginal population? The Roma?

Your argument makes as much sense and the Islamic stance that the only logical explanation for the Qu'ran is if Allah had dictated it.

Ahh, someone finally made this point. I've got an answer for everything, you know. Those nations were not driven from their homelands for 2,000 years and scattered all over the place, and yet remained ONE nation with the same singular values. Nations that were hard to get to because they were in an isolated area of the world - of course their values live on; no one touched them and no one presented them a different cultural lifestyle. But the Jews have not had a homeland for 2,000 years! We should have completely forgotten our faith and assimilated into the rest of civilization. But the mere fact that we didn't is beyond normal. So again, all you people are doing is trying to rationalize something that by the laws of history is NOT ABLE TO BE RATIONALIZED.

 

[tumbleweed41]

Ahh, someone finally made this point. I've got an answer for everything, you know.

Your humility is noted.

Those nations were not driven from their homelands for 2,000 years and scattered all over the place, and yet remained ONE nation with the same singular values.

Like the Romani?

 

[Yanni]

Your humility is noted.



Like the Romani?

AND, REESTABLISHED their homeland from 2,000 years ago? To reestablish a homeland IN THE PLACE THAT WAS YOURS 2,000 YEARS AGO is NOT NORMAL. It's UNPRECEDENTED. What are the odds that there would be the establishment of a Jewish national homeland in the same place we were driven from? Did the Romani accomplish the same thing? I think not.

 

[Acim]

Okay, so let me explain the "Chosen People" thing. According to our tradition, God actually presented Torah to the other nations of the world (before the Jews were even given it).

I'm sorry, but this makes me laugh for several reasons. Mainly because it took this Deity awhile to find his "chosen people." And if this were presented with Mel Brooks humor / filming, it would come off as utterly hilarious how the Jews came to be "God's Chosen People." Also, funny cause I would bet some of those nations / people are still with us. I'm guessing (orthodox) Jews have pride around possible argument that says, "no, no, no, they were all killed off. But we survived, precisely because we said yes."

The nations all asked God to tell them what's in it first. When God mentioned that they couldn't murder (and remember, people were more primitive back then; they weren't democratic thinkers who cared about human rights), those nations prone to killing for sport (and believe me, people were like that back then) couldn't accept the Torah. When God presented it to another nation and the nation asked what's in it, God told them they can't be sexually immoral (which includes adultery, incest, homosexuality, etc). They couldn't alter their way of life. However, when God presented the Torah to the Jews at Mount Sinai, they all said in unison "We will do and we will listen," meaning they didn't even request to be told what they were accepting. They said they will "do," or obey, and only then will they listen to what their new responsibilities were. So, technically, we were the "choosing" nation, and thus became God's "Chosen" Nation (not chosen in the sense that every other nation will be doomed to be wiped off the face of the earth or something; as I've said previously, Judaism is not like other religions in that regard; we believe ALL people, even if not Jewish, have a special place in the World to Come).

Okay, this is meat and bones of what I hear you saying Chosen means. I must admit on second reading of this, it came off to me like making a deal with the devil (or LORD God). It seems irrational to not want to know what one is signing up to before they commit their whole soul, and soul of their descendants, to this deal. I realize for some this is where "faith," would come in, but is not how I understand faith. I also think if we set up a story and told the audience, "here is the devil" and then proceeded to talk about similar deal you are alluding to, it would be looked at as precisely irrational because there was unwillingness / lack of discernment to hear the deal first, before honoring the pact.

Furthermore, I am willing to say that Jews then may have followed the deal after hearing the information. Hence the Torah, history, and yadda yadda yadda. But somewhere in history, it seems like people were allowed to be "Jewish" and not follow the Torah to a tee. Such that "chosen people" would seem to apply to them as much as atheists, Christians, British soccer fans, painters, and republicans.

The Jewish task was always to disseminate a knowledge of an existence of One, Singular God Who created and sustains this world with His perfect benevolence, and to spread morality throughout the primitive world that didn't have it. The United States of America was founded on these morals that the JEWS brought into the world.

So, it wasn't LORD God, but was Jews that brought it into the world? Interesting. I could've swore I heard differently. Even recently.

Take a look at what John Adams himself said:
"I will insist that the Hebrews have done more to civilize men than any other nation...They have given religion to three-quarters of the globe and have influenced the affairs of mankind, more and more happily than any other nation, ancient or modern."
And more proof for the Divine through our existence was something Thomas Newton, the Bishop of Bristol (late 1700s) said:
"The preservation of the Jews is really one of the most signal and illustrious acts of Divine Providence...and what but a supernatural power could have preserved them in such a manner as non other nation upon earth has been preserved. Nor is the Providence of God less remarkable in the destruction of their enemies, than in their preservation...We see that the great empires, which in their turn subdues and oppressed the people of God, are all come to ruin...And if such has been the fatal end of the enemies and oppressors of the Jews, let it serve as a warning to all those, who at any time or upon any occasion are for raising a clamor and persecution against them." (Gould, Allan ed., What Did They Think of the Jews? Northvale, NJ: Jason Aronson, 1997, pp. 92-93)
Please don't tell me that Mars or Jupiter has something to do with our survival as a people. Please use common sense.

Common sense tells me that Jew is a concept, not a race. And that Jews (today, perhaps ever) don't have to follow the 'letter of the law' to maintain Jewry for themselves. Such that arguably, all people living today are, to some degree, a Jew. If you heard anything about 1 God, and spread that in any way (even as atheist), you could arguably have degree of Jew in you. You can actively deny your Jewish makeup as I'm sure A-jad does (vehemently so), but if A-jad and likes are following in tradition of monotheism, then to some degree they are a Jew. And so, as long as the idea of "one God" is alive in humanity, Jews are alive and well.

That is the common sense I would apply to "why are these people magically still surviving in a world where overly righteous Jews are threatened and/or persecuted."

 

[waitasec]

AND, REESTABLISHED their homeland from 2,000 years ago? To reestablish a homeland IN THE PLACE THAT WAS YOURS 2,000 YEARS AGO is NOT NORMAL. It's UNPRECEDENTED. What are the odds that there would be the establishment of a Jewish national homeland in the same place we were driven from? Did the Romani accomplish the same thing? I think not.

and what about those who perished?

if the jewish people were chosen, then they were chosen to live a challenging existence...from my perspective this undue sense of importance over compensates the reality of a history of persecution...

in another post you said:

The Nazis were more powerful than any of our previous oppressors, and yet, they did NOT succeed at destroying us.

but many jews walked away from the faith...many, if not most.

 

[tumbleweed41]

AND, REESTABLISHED their homeland from 2,000 years ago? To reestablish a homeland IN THE PLACE THAT WAS YOURS 2,000 YEARS AGO is NOT NORMAL. It's UNPRECEDENTED. What are the odds that there would be the establishment of a Jewish national homeland in the same place we were driven from? Did the Romani accomplish the same thing? I think not.

It's politics and the relationship and shared history with a predominately Christian Europe in the period after WWII.

The Romani retain their culture without those advantages.

Perhaps they are truly the chosen people.


But back to the OP, is the reason you attempt to rationalize your beliefs with an argument from incredibility just an attempt to justify a 2500+ year old prohibition against homosexuality?

 

[tarekabdo12]

On the account of being a very mean way to satisfy sexual desire. The sexual desire was not designed to render people sexual machines that serve their despicable vagaries but rather to elate the morals of human beings. The sex desire was put into the human nature to push them to a world of love and intimacy. A man and a woman are so great couple; each one has a part that the other lacks. Like ions, when a –ve ion forms a bond with a +ve one, it's a very strong one. And if an atom has an extra electron it becomes unstable till it forms a bond with another positive one. This is the law of nature; you've what I lack so we make a great couple with a nice relation. The two sexes are different and complementary so they greatly fit together. If you contemplate the homosexual relation, you'll find that it's really disgusting. Doing it in the *** where stools collect and in a humiliating way is not at all moral. In addition, the natural human instinct doesn't promote real love in that way. I see that the sexual relation is mainly a moral one that is manifested materialistically through bodies, yet the true contentment comes from near inside the heart and from the deep soul. It's rather a deep great feeling that can't be described by words. When a couple indulges into sex they forget the whole world and remember solely their shared love. That's because men are different from women and they both complete each others. However, the homosexual relation lacks a moral aspect and it depends only on mean body thirst for sex. That's why homosexuals practice sex more often compared to heterosexuals as they are never satisfied. A deep desire towards love keeps insisting to come up. In addition, homosexuals cannot maintain partners for long time, that's simply because there is no real relation.

 

[waitasec]

On the account of being a very mean way to satisfy sexual desire. The sexual desire was not designed to render people sexual machines that serve their despicable vagaries but rather to elate the morals of human beings. The sex desire was put into the human nature to push them to a world of love and intimacy. A man and a woman are so great couple; each one has a part that the other lacks. Like ions, when a –ve ion forms a bond with a +ve one, it's a very strong one. And if an atom has an extra electron it becomes unstable till it forms a bond with another positive one. This is the law of nature; you've what I lack so we make a great couple with a nice relation. The two sexes are different and complementary so they greatly fit together. If you contemplate the homosexual relation, you'll find that it's really disgusting. Doing it in the *** where stools collect and in a humiliating way is not at all moral. In addition, the natural human instinct doesn't promote real love in that way. I see that the sexual relation is mainly a moral one that is manifested materialistically through bodies, yet the true contentment comes from near inside the heart and from the deep soul. It's rather a deep great feeling that can't be described by words. When a couple indulges into sex they forget the whole world and remember solely their shared love. That's because men are different from women and they both complete each others. However, the homosexual relation lacks a moral aspect and it depends only on mean body thirst for sex. That's why homosexuals practice sex more often compared to heterosexuals as they are never satisfied. A deep desire towards love keeps insisting to come up. In addition, homosexuals cannot maintain partners for long time, that's simply because there is no real relation.

sexual connection is chemistry...not a penis and a vagina.

 

[tumbleweed41]

On the account of being a very mean way to satisfy sexual desire....

If you contemplate the homosexual relation, you'll find that it's really disgusting...

However, the homosexual relation lacks a moral aspect and it depends only on mean body thirst for sex...

That's why homosexuals practice sex more often compared to heterosexuals as they are never satisfied...

In addition, homosexuals cannot maintain partners for long time, that's simply because there is no real relation...

Well, you have demonstrated that you know very little about human relationships, and have absolutely no knowledge about relationships within the LGBT community.

(Not to mention, your bias is showing.)

 

[Yanni]

It's politics and the relationship and shared history with a predominately Christian Europe in the period after WWII.

The Romani retain their culture without those advantages.

Perhaps they are truly the chosen people.


But back to the OP, is the reason you attempt to rationalize your beliefs with an argument from incredibility just an attempt to justify a 2500+ year old prohibition against homosexuality?

I was trying to back up my belief on this issue by trying to prove (though doesn't seem to be easy) that the Torah, which predicted the immortality of the Jewish people, is the same Torah that prohibits homosexuality, and since the Jewish people's existence cannot be explained by natural means, it must be that that "Being" Who predicted the Jewish people's immortality was a Deity and and that the Torah was written by Him, and that homosexuality has and still is prohibited by Him.