DavyCrocket2003
Well-Known Member
I don't believe that everything that exists was created by God.
P.S. And what he did create was not created out of nothing, but out of preexisting materials.
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God's Plan
- Thread starter Madhuri
- Start date
P.S. And what he did create was not created out of nothing, but out of preexisting materials.
DavyCrocket2003
Well-Known Member
Which ones? The ones that he didn't create? Well, how about I ask you this, how does God exist?
My Father.
Davy Crocket
I very much agree with you that God created this world out of eternally existing matter which possesses it's own inherent properties. God did NOT create this world "out of nothing". I think the more modern theory that God created all things out of "nothing" creates and drives it's own set of erroneous assumptions and conclusions and this is partly the cause of Madhuri's resulting erroneous assumption that God created evil. Madhuri's assumption that God created evil also relates to Madhuri's erroneous assumption that God created the laws underlying a creation from "nothing". Creation from "nothing" is illogical and nonsensical.
The ancient Christian doctrine where God created this physical world out of eternally existing, but disorganized physical matter is much more sensical (and the early doctrine of creation from eternally existing matter does NOT create the logical dilemma of God having 'created' evil that is so logically and morally bothersome for Madhuri).
Clear
I very much agree with you that God created this world out of eternally existing matter which possesses it's own inherent properties. God did NOT create this world "out of nothing". I think the more modern theory that God created all things out of "nothing" creates and drives it's own set of erroneous assumptions and conclusions and this is partly the cause of Madhuri's resulting erroneous assumption that God created evil. Madhuri's assumption that God created evil also relates to Madhuri's erroneous assumption that God created the laws underlying a creation from "nothing". Creation from "nothing" is illogical and nonsensical.
The ancient Christian doctrine where God created this physical world out of eternally existing, but disorganized physical matter is much more sensical (and the early doctrine of creation from eternally existing matter does NOT create the logical dilemma of God having 'created' evil that is so logically and morally bothersome for Madhuri).
Clear
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That is correct. If these things already existed then some of the dilemmas are solved. This is certainly a different way of perceiving God and one that I am unfamiliar with.
I am very familiar with a religious argument that states the difference between man and God: While man can create things out of matter, God actually created matter.
But this is not your view, apparently. I find it very interesting though.
I am very familiar with a religious argument that states the difference between man and God: While man can create things out of matter, God actually created matter.
But this is not your view, apparently. I find it very interesting though.
So God represents a mysteriously existing personality who happened to have the power to create things out of what already existed.
What came first, God or the universe?
Are they eternal?
When did God start creating things?
What was he doing before that?
Your unfamiliarity with early christian doctrine is part of the difficulty. You and Davy Crocket2003 are on different ‘wavelengths” and using entirely different basic assumptions underlying reality. Davy Crocket2003 is using the ancient Christian model of Creation from matter and you are using a later Christian theory of Creation from “nothing”. These incompatible basic assumptions are causing their own set of difficulties.
Since DaveyCrocket2003 believes that God created material worlds from material, and since you admit “if these things already existed then some of the dilemmas are solved”, then why don’t you both agree to make the same assumption, i.e. that God created the material world from material and see where a discussion based on this simple, but profound agreement might take you, especially since you will bypass 1600 years of illogical and nonsensical dilemmas by doing so. See if a return to the ancient model of creation doesn't change the considerations in very profound ways.
Good luck in your discussion
Clear
twtweibn
The problem with this suggestion is that I am asking these questions to Christians in general and many do not share the LDS ideas.
Clear, where can I get information that your ideas are in ancient Christian doctrine and that mainstream Christian ideas are more recent?
DavyCrocket2003
Well-Known Member
I don't know all of the answers. By universe, do you mean everything? Maybe God created (organized) this entire universe. Maybe not. What I do know is that God is great because he is good. He did not make up what is good and what is evil. He is good, and that goodness is the source of his power. I do not presume to have a complete understanding of God. What I believe is that he has a core, a soul, mind, or spirit (whatever you want to call it) that has always existed. This is the same for us. While our mortal bodies have only existed since our births, I believe that the very essence of who we are is an eternal substance that has never been created and can never be destroyed. God is so advanced that he has all power. He is helping us to become more advanced and to have more knowledge, power and glory. As we attain similar character traits and attributes to him, we will gradually become more like him. The Gospel of Jesus Christ is all about becoming more Godly. If fully applied and practiced diligently with all of our heart might mind and strength, that is what we will become, like God:
1 John 3:2 said:
Some of what you are describing definitely reminds me of my own religious philosophy (Hindu).
So ok, I am trying to get my head around this. God represents the force of Good. He might not be the creator of everything that exists but he the most powerful force of Good. So then does Satan represent the most powerful force of Evil? Is he kind of the eternal aspect of evil that exists along side the eternal aspect of Good?
Or did you earlier say that he was created by God and then chose evil? But then...if there is a personality representing Good from the very begining would not there also have been the personality representing evil?
Ah, I'm confusing myself!
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Misleading Recursion
New Member
My interest was also piqued by the idea that early Christians may have had a different understanding of the creation story. Perhaps it could be understood thinking about how Christianity spread in the first place. Certainly there was a campaign to spread the religion as that was the duty of its adherents; they were quite literally commanded to spread the word. However, most of the converts at the time would have been "pagans". Certainly the super-majority of non-Jews at the time were polytheistic. In fact, many embraced the God of the Jews and Christians as simply being a superior god to their own. The understanding of what it meant to be a god was very different then, especially in Italy where, if I'm not mistaken, Christianity really took root.
It does seem entirely possible that only as time passed and the other gods were forgotten and their temples destroyed and plundered, the idea of the there being nothing before the Almighty God would have become commonplace. That's how I interpret the post - that is, unless Clear cares to muddy things up a bit?
As for your original question, Madhuri... It seems to me that a more often accepted and allegedly logical answer has two parts.
1) That God did not "create evil", but simply allowed for beings to come into existence who were complex enough to make choices while understanding the implications of those choices.
2) That God is not subject to the flow of time because He resides outside of it, or else is similarly unaffected by it. The idea is that He knows what will happen because to Him it has already happened. As simple humans, we often forget that it is our experience of time which unfolds, not necessarily time itself.
Did your Gods create evil, or is it simply a repercussion to any system in which there can be choice?
It does seem entirely possible that only as time passed and the other gods were forgotten and their temples destroyed and plundered, the idea of the there being nothing before the Almighty God would have become commonplace. That's how I interpret the post - that is, unless Clear cares to muddy things up a bit?
As for your original question, Madhuri... It seems to me that a more often accepted and allegedly logical answer has two parts.
1) That God did not "create evil", but simply allowed for beings to come into existence who were complex enough to make choices while understanding the implications of those choices.
2) That God is not subject to the flow of time because He resides outside of it, or else is similarly unaffected by it. The idea is that He knows what will happen because to Him it has already happened. As simple humans, we often forget that it is our experience of time which unfolds, not necessarily time itself.
Did your Gods create evil, or is it simply a repercussion to any system in which there can be choice?
Do you perhaps mean that evil is simply a human subjective construct but not a real thing/force?
Again, how can any desire or compulsion exist in us if God did not design it as such.
I do not think that choice alone is a reasonable explanation for the existence of 'evil'. A sadist will only torture because they have a desire too. Most people are not battling with such a desire.
Is this a rhetorical question?
Misleading Recursion
New Member
Yes, I do consider evil to be subjective. After all, evil to us is only that which makes sense in a given context. In a culture where women are forbidden to dress provocatively, a temptress may be considered an agent of evil. In a culture where less restrictive, the oppression of women is considered evil. You've only selected sadism as an example because we live on a planet full of creatures that experience pain. But are sadists evil, or are they pathological? What about masochists? Are they good or evil? To a masochist, is a sadist evil?
The question was not rhetorical, it would help me to put your question in context.
In order to help you understand how a system created is not the same as an aspect created, you must remember that desire is separate from that which is desired. One might well argue that we were created with the ability to desire anything, physical or non-physical, primary or secondary, real or imagined. That is a simple rule, easily handled by a small reward center in each animal brain. We have a genetic predisposition to experiencing that reward when we taste energy rich food or become involved in sexual activity, but it can be bound to literally anything.
What would it mean for evil not to exist in such a world? It would mean that we would literally and physically be unable to partake in many different activities because they are, or may be interpreted as, or may result in "evil". What a strange and confusing world that would be.
Well I agree with everything you are saying, specifically because I do not believe in evil or satan (I am Hindu). My God concept is rather different from the Christian concept. And that is why I am here asking these questions because I simply do not understand them well enough.
DavyCrocket2003
Well-Known Member
Yes. I think you are doing splendid. Take away God, and there is still good. Take away satan, and you still have evil. God and Satan are the most powerful agents of good and evil that we encounter. We can choose to follow either the enticings of good or of evil. Satan has chosen evil and God has chosen righteousness. We must decide what path we will follow. God has created an opportunity for us to become like him if we choose. It is a difficult and long road, but it is worth it. Satan on the other hand is doing his best to get us to choose the same path that he has. In a big way, we create ourselves. We are creating ourselves with each word and each action every day of our lives.
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DavyCrocket2003
Well-Known Member
I think evil is betraying our principles. It depends on our level of understanding.
So how to concepts of heaven and hell and 'salvation' differ in LDS from mainstream Christianity? Do you also have to accept Jesus as your saviour? Or do you just have to be a good person? Is there just one life to 'become like God' or do you believe in reincarnation?
DavyCrocket2003
Well-Known Member
This is my belief. There will be as many different levels of existence as there are different people. I don't think there is a good analogue for the traditional fire and brimstone concept of hell. The greatest souls will continue to progress for eternity. As far as I know we only spend one mortal life on this earth. But many of us will be spending a great deal of time here in our future. As to whether or not one must accept Christ, why do you think anyone would reject him? Besides, we reject or accept him by how well we live our lives.
Matthew 25 said:
DavyCrocket2003
Well-Known Member
Sorry about the slow posts. 
I'm currently learning a new keyboard layout.
I'm currently learning a new keyboard layout.