Gods responsibility

[sojourner]

If creation was a deliberate act on the part of God, then God has a share of responsibility for everything that results.

Consider Newton's "divine watchmaker" God: the whole reason that Newton believed that God did not intervene with miracles was his belief that if God had to continually "adjust the mechanism" of the universe once it started, this would suggest God's design was imperfect. In cases like this, lack of involvement goes hand-in-hand with ultimate responsibility.

And I question your assumption that a God that's truly uninvolved could completely divorce himself from responsibility, since this assumes no moral imperatives. IMO, the mere fact that a person didn't have a hand in creating the situation doesn't necessarily imply that they don't have a duty to step in and help. For instance, take the famous case of Kitty Genovese: she was attacked on the street and initially got free. Plenty of neighbours heard her screams, but none called the police. This allowed her attacker to find her again and rape and murder her. Are the neighbours culpable in that case? I would say yes.

Our morals are a reflection of our values, so even if we didn't cause a circumstance if we value the people affected by that circumstance, then we have a duty to intercede.

I guess what I'm trying to get to is that love all by itself can often create a duty, and if that duty is breached, then this is a failure that the person is responsible for.

I'd like to respond to this, but I'm going to have to think it out first. I've honestly never considered that God could be held culpable for our actions. What you say here makes sense, on the surface, but something still seems wrong about that assertion.

 

[Thief]

I'd like to respond to this, but I'm going to have to think it out first. I've honestly never considered that God could be held culpable for our actions. What you say here makes sense, on the surface, but something still seems wrong about that assertion.

Perhaps you've seen a particular Star Trek episode.....

The crew come upon an entity trying maintain a severe privacy.
Seems he had a guilt complex for something done a long time ago.

The illusions the entity dealt did not fool the ship's computer.
The crew kept coming back.

Realizing he could not hide himself...he confessed.

The captain had no choice but to leave.
The entity, having the ability of mind over matter was beyond the law.
The humans had no law for condemnation of a more powerful being.

So...here we are pressing all of humanities fault unto a more powerful Entity.

Unlike the crew of the Enterprise.....we are not going anywhere.

Unlike the scenario of the tv plot......WE are the focus of the guilt complex.

What do you think God should do about .....us?

 

[cottage]

That wasn't the argument of the OP. The OP never mentioned "design flaws that cause the demise of the robot." The OP mentioned the robot's actions.

Well, I’m sorry Sogourner but while I respect you for defending your faith you are very evidently wrong on this matter. I’m saying to you that the actions of the created object, robot or human, is the ultimate responsibility of the creator. No creator then no created objects. If a man puts two fighting dogs in a cage, and one kills the other then the dog’s death occurred because of man’s prior action. To say the man is not culpable is clearly absurd.

No. it's not. It's one description around which one logical argument can be posed.

Again I don’t think you’re seeing the logic of the argument. If we’re talking of the God of classical theism then there is only one definition that is true as a matter of metaphysical necessity and that is that God is the creator and conserver of all things. Nothing else is logically necessary, no descriptions and no attributes other than what is logically necessary to achieve that end. This is why Professor Craig in his lectures and debates never describes God as ‘omnipotent’, because that term isn’t necessary to the concept. Instead he argues that God is ‘unimaginably powerful’, which is all God needs to be in order to bring the world into being; or in other words sufficiently causally powerful to bring about the desired effect. And as for ‘omnibenevolence’ that has no utility whatever, let alone any logical necessity. Anything else that is said about God is merely a matter of preference or faith, which might be true or false - but demonstrably not true by definition.

Well it had to start somewhere! The description of God-as-creator came directly from the cry first words of Genesis: "In the beginning, God created..."

Neither Genesis nor the Bible itself has a monopoly on the concept of a creator.

 

[mystic64]

No, I'm basing this on the assumptions of God's nature built into certain mainstream religious beliefs. If you don't believe in them, then what I say doesn't apply for you.

"These certain mainstream religious beliefs" are something that I believe in . Humm? So I guess from your defined reality everything would be God's fault. And if a person doesn't agree with your defined reality, then what you say does not apply to them. That seems to create a somewhat "zip" for a debate reality .

That's the implication of an omnipotent and omniscient God. Such a God could never be surprised by an outcome or be forced into a particular choice. There can be no such thing as an unintended consequence for a truly almighty God.

"There can be no such thing as an unintended consequence for a truly almighty God." That is pretty much an absolute isn't it with zero "wiggle" room. Humm? "How can a profoundly powerful force that is omnipotent and omniscient not be at fault?" It can't, it has to be His fault. So therefore the question becomes, "What are the parameters that are being used to judge His actions and are these parameters valid?" If one does "not" believe there is this all knowing all powerful fellow at play, then everything is going quite nicely and the fittest will end up on top. And there is the possibility that those that are the believers in this all knowing all powerful fellow will end up on top because they are the fittest. So from there it is just a drama that is playing itself out with an inevitable conclusion. So again, all things are going quite well and it is all God's fault.

So your God is not omniscient? Fair enough - there's no particular reason why a god *must* be omniscient.

My God can be omniscient if that is what the discussion/debate is about. And the OP is basically about exploring fault.

That's a fair assessment. If we're living in the fruits of "God's holy plan", then God has some issues.

But my learned friend, "How can God have some issues?" His "holy plan" is in play and those of us that believe in Him are ordained to win . God created Nature and its laws, and compassion is not a part of those laws. So we as a part of this Nature that has been created are the ones at fault, not God. And this is because we as a species have a tendency to show compassion in a reality where compassion does not exist. Should we give up compassion because God does not have any compassion? Absolutely not ! Should we give up God because He has no compassion? Absolutely not !

Is God at fault? Yes. Is what it is that God is doing, wrong? No. Because if we have compassion, then it does not matter whether God has compassion or not. God is what God is, and it is inevitable that those who believe in Him are going to win because they are the fittest . And this was foreseen from the beginning.

 

[idav]

"These certain mainstream religious beliefs" are something that I believe in . Humm? So I guess from your defined reality everything would be God's fault. And if a person doesn't agree with your defined reality, then what you say does not apply to them. That seems to create a somewhat "zip" for a debate reality .



"There can be no such thing as an unintended consequence for a truly almighty God." That is pretty much an absolute isn't it with zero "wiggle" room. Humm? "How can a profoundly powerful force that is omnipotent and omniscient not be at fault?" It can't, it has to be His fault. So therefore the question becomes, "What are the parameters that are being used to judge His actions and are these parameters valid?" If one does "not" believe there is this all knowing all powerful fellow at play, then everything is going quite nicely and the fittest will end up on top. And there is the possibility that those that are the believers in this all knowing all powerful fellow will end up on top because they are the fittest. So from there it is just a drama that is playing itself out with an inevitable conclusion. So again, all things are going quite well and it is all God's fault.




My God can be omniscient if that is what the discussion/debate is about. And the OP is basically about exploring fault.




But my learned friend, "How can God have some issues?" His "holy plan" is in play and those of us that believe in Him are ordained to win . God created Nature and its laws, and compassion is not a part of those laws. So we as a part of this Nature that has been created are the ones at fault, not God. And this is because we as a species have a tendency to show compassion in a reality where compassion does not exist. Should we give up compassion because God does not have any compassion? Absolutely not ! Should we give up God because He has no compassion? Absolutely not !

Is God at fault? Yes. Is what it is that God is doing, wrong? No. Because if we have compassion, then it does not matter whether God has compassion or not. God is what God is, and it is inevitable that those who believe in Him are going to win because they are the fittest . And this was foreseen from the beginning.

I like this attitude. Everything is awesome and if someone doesnt think so its cause they dont have the full scope. That is faith but would be leaning that way if I needed any. There is always what if god is malevolent and waiting for some other future species to propagate at the expense of the human race.

 

[mystic64]

I like this attitude. Everything is awesome and if someone doesnt think so its cause they dont have the full scope. That is faith but would be leaning that way if I needed any. There is always what if god is malevolent and waiting for some other future species to propagate at the expense of the human race.

Thank you for your words Idav! It is a lot easier to believe in something if you have experienced it and interacted with it. One could ask why those that believe in God are preordained to win and it is all God's fault? The reason is that those that can appeal to and interact with a higher source (God being the highest) and get possitive results in their life and the lives of others always have an advantage over those that can not or do not appeal or interact with a higher source. Always . And what is funny is that the folks that have a strong faith along with a tendency toward compassion are the ones that consistantly get the the best results from appealing to or interacting with a higher source. One can get results from a higher source without compassion, but if one does it that way, consistant and predicability for some reason goes right out the window. One minute you are on top and that next minute you are stomped into oblivion and severly cursing this higher source. And there is no getting around it, it is all God's fault ! I love it !

 

[Thief]

Thank you for your words Idav! It is a lot easier to believe in something if you have experienced it and interacted with it. One could ask why those that believe in God are preordained to win and it is all God's fault? The reason is that those that can appeal to and interact with a higher source (God being the highest) and get possitive results in their life and the lives of others always have an advantage over those that can not or do not appeal or interact with a higher source. Always . And what is funny is that the folks that have a strong faith along with a tendency toward compassion are the ones that consistantly get the the best results from appealing to or interacting with a higher source. One can get results from a higher source without compassion, but if one does it that way, consistant and predicability for some reason goes right out the window. One minute you are on top and that next minute you are stomped into oblivion and severly cursing this higher source. And there is no getting around it, it is all God's fault ! I love it !

So God has not made an effort to make this life easier?

I don't believe in the alleged curses of Genesis.
Leaving the garden would have difficulties.
The isolated and sheltered living of the garden would be ideal.
Life in the rest of the world would have the appearance of a curse.
But it's not a curse.....just hardship of living.

Now if you want to say God made life difficult......ok.
But chemistry has rules.
And if you are to have freewill....the chemistry you have is the only restriction.

You will seek out what you need.
No One is stopping you.

Is it God's fault you will die?.....ok.
Chemistry has rules. So does spirit.
Your body will die....such is chemistry.
If your spirit has what it takes to continue....good for you.
If not...too bad.

But if you fail in spirit.....is that God's fault?

 

[mystic64]

So God has not made an effort to make this life easier?

I don't believe in the alleged curses of Genesis.
Leaving the garden would have difficulties.
The isolated and sheltered living of the garden would be ideal.
Life in the rest of the world would have the appearance of a curse.
But it's not a curse.....just hardship of living.

Now if you want to say God made life difficult......ok.
But chemistry has rules.
And if you are to have freewill....the chemistry you have is the only restriction.

You will seek out what you need.
No One is stopping you.

Is it God's fault you will die?.....ok.
Chemistry has rules. So does spirit.
Your body will die....such is chemistry.
If your spirit has what it takes to continue....good for you.
If not...too bad.

But if you fail in spirit.....is that God's fault?

Whoah Thief, you do put the "pedal to the metal" here ! And you do raise some interesting questions. I am going to have to go have a look at what you have said in this topic to see what angle you are coming from because I suspect you are not coming from the same angle that 9/10th Penguin is coming from.

 

[mystic64]

[quote=Thief;3900944]So God has not made an effort to make this life easier?

I don't believe in the alleged curses of Genesis.
Leaving the garden would have difficulties.
The isolated and sheltered living of the garden would be ideal.
Life in the rest of the world would have the appearance of a curse.
But it's not a curse.....just hardship of living.

Now if you want to say God made life difficult......ok.
But chemistry has rules.
And if you are to have freewill....the chemistry you have is the only restriction.

You will seek out what you need.
No One is stopping you.

Is it God's fault you will die?.....ok.
Chemistry has rules. So does spirit.
Your body will die....such is chemistry.
If your spirit has what it takes to continue....good for you.
If not...too bad.

But if you fail in spirit.....is that God's fault?

Well Thief, you have made over twenty posts in this topic and the foundation for your approach seems to be a belief in God and theology (rogue?). And the blame/fault rests on Humankind and not God. First of all I agree with most of what you have said , but two people agreeing is not a debate. So...

I don't believe in the alleged curses of Genesis.

Leaving the garden would have difficulties.
The isolated and sheltered living of the garden would be ideal.
Life in the rest of the world would have the appearance of a curse.
But it's not a curse.....just hardship of living.

Thief what you have said above is not "Theological" . When Adam and Eve ate from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil as well as eating from the Tree of Life, they became as the gods. Which included, physical immortality. God said, "No." And then He kicked Adam and Eve out of the Garden of Eden so that they could no longer eat from the Tree of Life. Thus they and their offspring became mortal. And to this day, "no" still means "no". I agree that it was not a curse, it was just a simple, "No you can not, I will not allow it." The gods can eat from both trees but humankind can't because God said "no". So whose fault was it that Adam and Eve and their future offspring got separated from the Tree of Life and thus becoming mortal? It was God's fault because He did not put a fence around the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil to protect the beginning of Humankind from their stupidity . Technically one could hold God libel for this if they were inclined to, which I am not inclined to do. If we expect God to forgive us, then we should also be willing to forgive Him should He be percieved to have made an error or mistake that created a lot of suffering.

Is it God's fault you will die?.....ok.

Chemistry has rules. So does spirit.
Your body will die....such is chemistry.
If your spirit has what it takes to continue....good for you.
If not...too bad.

Yes it is God's fault that we die and it has to do with "ignorance of chemistry", not the absolute of chemistry. And science has no idea why the human body ages, and because of the way that it is set up, it should not age. Yes chemistry is involved, there has to be something in the chemistry relm that is the "kicker" , It is just that science, to our knowledge, has not found it yet. When that chemistry "kicker" is found, then humankind will be able to eat from both the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil and the Tree of Life should they wish to. And become immortal inspite of it until God says "no". An technically that will be His fault if He does that.

Personally it is my opinion that God's request that we do not eat from The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil is a fair request or demand. So it is my opinion that one should wean themselves off of the Tree of the Knowlwdge of Good and Evil, because it is no big deal, and allow the Tree of Life to flurish again.

 

[Thief]

Well Thief, you have made over twenty posts in this topic and the foundation for your approach seems to be a belief in God and theology (rogue?). And the blame/fault rests on Humankind and not God. First of all I agree with most of what you have said , but two people agreeing is not a debate. So...



Thief what you have said above is not "Theological" . When Adam and Eve ate from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil as well as eating from the Tree of Life, they became as the gods. Which included, physical immortality. God said, "No." And then He kicked Adam and Eve out of the Garden of Eden so that they could no longer eat from the Tree of Life. Thus they and their offspring became mortal. And to this day, "no" still means "no". I agree that it was not a curse, it was just a simple, "No you can not, I will not allow it." The gods can eat from both trees but humankind can't because God said "no". So whose fault was it that Adam and Eve and their future offspring got separated from the Tree of Life and thus becoming mortal? It was God's fault because He did not put a fence around the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil to protect the beginning of Humankind from their stupidity . Technically one could hold God libel for this if they were inclined to, which I am not inclined to do. If we expect God to forgive us, then we should also be willing to forgive Him should He be percieved to have made an error or mistake that created a lot of suffering.



Yes it is God's fault that we die and it has to do with "ignorance of chemistry", not the absolute of chemistry. And science has no idea why the human body ages, and because of the way that it is set up, it should not age. Yes chemistry is involved, there has to be something in the chemistry relm that is the "kicker" , It is just that science, to our knowledge, has not found it yet. When that chemistry "kicker" is found, then humankind will be able to eat from both the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil and the Tree of Life should they wish to. And become immortal inspite of it until God says "no". An technically that will be His fault if He does that.

Personally it is my opinion that God's request that we do not eat from The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil is a fair request or demand. So it is my opinion that one should wean themselves off of the Tree of the Knowlwdge of Good and Evil, because it is no big deal, and allow the Tree of Life to flurish again.

If someone obeys every word you speak....do they have freewill?
The only way to know for sure is to give them a choice.

The choice.....partake and know and die.....or continue as is.

The choice was made.

I believe the offering was to make sure the alteration had taken hold.
We were intended to be a creature seeking knowledge....even if death is pending.

We ARE that creature.
We have passed the test.

But then again...the test is dealt at a personal level...on each occasion.
Do you have what it takes?.....to learn all that you can.....and then die?

 

[mystic64]

If someone obeys every word you speak....do they have freewill?
The only way to know for sure is to give them a choice.

The choice.....partake and know and die.....or continue as is.

The choice was made.

I believe the offering was to make sure the alteration had taken hold.
We were intended to be a creature seeking knowledge....even if death is pending.

We ARE that creature.
We have passed the test.

But then again...the test is dealt at a personal level...on each occasion.
Do you have what it takes?.....to learn all that you can.....and then die?

your mind works in an interesting way Thief, lets see if I can keep up? I am attempting to find blame with God (and forgive Him if there is any) and you are attempting to find blame with Humankind as individual choices (with forgiveness possible with right choices). And you seem to be approaching your argument through the concept of freewill.

"If someone obeys everyword that you speak...do they have freewill?" It would be freewill if they are doing it because they want to. It would not be freewill if they are doing it because of threat of punishment if they don't do it. This is with the understanding that choosing death over obey could be considered a last ditch effort at maintaining freewill.

From there we come to "knowledge" and our need to know. Thief some folks just do not want to know . Thus we sort of end up with two kinds of people, those that want to know and those that do not want to know. Generally speaking those that want or need to know would be considered "goats"; and those that do not want or need to know would be considered "sheep". Theologically speaking "sheep" is the prefered state of mind when it comes to the god of Abraham and most gods in general.

" We were intended to be a creature seeking knowledge....even if death is pending." Some of us are Thief and some of us are not. Those of us that are not a creature seeking knowledge just ask for a good Shepherd/leader that knows what he is doing and "Lets getter done." The problem is that there are a lot of "goats " running around claiming to be shepherds/leaders that are nothing but "idiots" and nothing gets done. Which then brings us back to the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. The concept of good and evil is an artificial reality that has nothing to do with real reality and it creates a direction in one's life that leads to nowhere. True reality is this question, "Is it good for me and my loved ones and is it good (quality of life) for the Community of Humankind?" If is is not then it needs to be delt with. If it is, then all is well. The concept of evil never comes into play. It is all just a matter of "practicality" relative to the individual's quality of life and the Community of Humankind as made up by individuals. We all can't have everything, but we all can have so kind of opportunity to have a threat free life and a chance to experience the having of the basic life needs.

If you believe in God/a Higher Source and somebody else does not, that somebody else is not evil. They are just at a disadvantage if you and this some kind of Higher Source have a functional relationship because this Higher Source can and will shape things in ways that are to your favor. It is not about "evil", it is about "practicality".

So anyway, eating from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil is not about seeking knowledge because eating from it results in limiting one's ability to seek knowledge.

Am I keeping up?

 

[Thief]

your mind works in an interesting way Thief, lets see if I can keep up? I am attempting to find blame with God (and forgive Him if there is any) and you are attempting to find blame with Humankind as individual choices (with forgiveness possible with right choices). And you seem to be approaching your argument through the concept of freewill.

"If someone obeys everyword that you speak...do they have freewill?" It would be freewill if they are doing it because they want to. It would not be freewill if they are doing it because of threat of punishment if they don't do it. This is with the understanding that choosing death over obey could be considered a last ditch effort at maintaining freewill.

From there we come to "knowledge" and our need to know. Thief some folks just do not want to know . Thus we sort of end up with two kinds of people, those that want to know and those that do not want to know. Generally speaking those that want or need to know would be considered "goats"; and those that do not want or need to know would be considered "sheep". Theologically speaking "sheep" is the prefered state of mind when it comes to the god of Abraham and most gods in general.

" We were intended to be a creature seeking knowledge....even if death is pending." Some of us are Thief and some of us are not. Those of us that are not a creature seeking knowledge just ask for a good Shepherd/leader that knows what he is doing and "Lets getter done." The problem is that there are a lot of "goats " running around claiming to be shepherds/leaders that are nothing but "idiots" and nothing gets done. Which then brings us back to the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. The concept of good and evil is an artificial reality that has nothing to do with real reality and it creates a direction in one's life that leads to nowhere. True reality is this question, "Is it good for me and my loved ones and is it good (quality of life) for the Community of Humankind?" If is is not then it needs to be delt with. If it is, then all is well. The concept of evil never comes into play. It is all just a matter of "practicality" relative to the individual's quality of life and the Community of Humankind as made up by individuals. We all can't have everything, but we all can have so kind of opportunity to have a threat free life and a chance to experience the having of the basic life needs.

If you believe in God/a Higher Source and somebody else does not, that somebody else is not evil. They are just at a disadvantage if you and this some kind of Higher Source have a functional relationship because this Higher Source can and will shape things in ways that are to your favor. It is not about "evil", it is about "practicality".

So anyway, eating from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil is not about seeking knowledge because eating from it results in limiting one's ability to seek knowledge.

Am I keeping up?

Parallel lines.....some details offset....

It would not be practical to allow every one of us into heaven.
The chaos of this world won't do well in the next.
The peace of heaven is guarded.
So....many of us ARE at a disadvantage.
Many won't even allow themselves to consider a Higher Power.

I suspect the lack of belief destroys the opportunity to crossover.

Even so....we crossover naked.
Anyone (or anything) standing over us in that last hour will have the advantage.
They already know the language, the territory and the scheme of things.
and angels have been displayed with sword in hand for a very long time.
Swords sever the living from the dead.

So...I picture the event on a personal level.
I die.
I then desire to stand up (my body won't respond).
I stand up anyway.

Heaven will be there looking to see what stands from the dust.
They will allow my following....or....
draw a line by sword.....in the dust.

The angels will lay sword in my hand and put a ring on my finger.
a robe about my shoulders.

Or they will turn and move away....and the devil behind me will laugh.

(Am I running ahead too fast?)

 

[Draupadi]

Yes the scientist is responsible. Why the glitch? And if you talk about freewill then tell me why it is given? Just to see who satiates your mind by listening to you and get angry at others for disobeying? Is your sense of need of satiation so great that you prefer to watch the sufferings of others caused by the glitch? And do we all have to go through all this just because we are inferior because you created us and control our fates?

 

[idav]

Yes the scientist is responsible. Why the glitch? And if you talk about freewill then tell me why it is given? Just to see who satiates your mind by listening to you and get angry at others for disobeying? Is your sense of need of satiation so great that you prefer to watch the sufferings of others caused by the glitch? And do we all have to go through all this just because we are inferior because you created us and control our fates?

With sentience beings start to want things. Would you want to be a robot or actually have freedom to choose things without being made to choose? Is losing some freedom to have some intervention worth it? I like to say so like with the terrorism affecting our laws, making everyone to be terrorists just because it exists. I enjoy my freedoms and hate when crimes take those freedoms away from me. It should be possible to allow freedoms without sacrificing safety. We punish the many for what the few are doing, there just needs to be limitations so that the few don't spoil the bunch. I prefer a positive leaning balance of freedom and avoiding of suffering.

 

[mystic64]

Parallel lines.....some details offset....

It would not be practical to allow every one of us into heaven.
The chaos of this world won't do well in the next.
The peace of heaven is guarded.
So....many of us ARE at a disadvantage.
Many won't even allow themselves to consider a Higher Power.

I suspect the lack of belief destroys the opportunity to crossover.

Even so....we crossover naked.
Anyone (or anything) standing over us in that last hour will have the advantage.
They already know the language, the territory and the scheme of things.
and angels have been displayed with sword in hand for a very long time.
Swords sever the living from the dead.

So...I picture the event on a personal level.
I die.
I then desire to stand up (my body won't respond).
I stand up anyway.

Heaven will be there looking to see what stands from the dust.
They will allow my following....or....
draw a line by sword.....in the dust.

The angels will lay sword in my hand and put a ring on my finger.
a robe about my shoulders.

Or they will turn and move away....and the devil behind me will laugh.

(Am I running ahead too fast?)

Parallel lines....some details offset...(Am I running ahead too fast?

Thief you are fun ! Basically you have expanded the topic question to include Heaven ! So lets throw this into the mix, "What happens on Earth happens in Heaven and what happens in Heaven happens on Earth."

It would not be practical to allow every one of us into heaven.
The chaos of this world won't do well in the next.
The peace of heaven is guarded.
So....many of us ARE at a disadvantage.
Many won't even allow themselves to consider a Higher Power.

The chaos on earth had its origin in Heaven and that chaos was brought to Earth from Heaven. Thief would that be why the angels would place a sword in your hand before you entered Heaven?

 

[Thief]

Thief you are fun ! Basically you have expanded the topic question to include Heaven ! So lets throw this into the mix, "What happens on Earth happens in Heaven and what happens in Heaven happens on Earth."



The chaos on earth had its origin in Heaven and that chaos was brought to Earth from Heaven. Thief would that be why the angels would place a sword in your hand before you entered Heaven?

Ok....here we go!

It is written....I would rather be a doorkeep in the house of my Lord....
rather than dwell in the tents of the wicked.

Let's go there for the moment.

I die....I stand.
The only item I can see is the Door.

I make my approach ....naked.
I must first overcome my embarrassment.

When I raise my hand to knock upon the Door....and voice behind me will speak....

Nay!...to knock upon that Door is betrayal to ME!

Some of us realizing the situation will throw ourselves unto the Door and beat upon it.

Some of us will draw our courage and in confidence raise a hand to knock.

Again the voice behind you will speak....NAY!.....

'Oh sure, it is written ....Knock and the Door will open'
and yea....they will let you in!
But they will look you over as they did ME, and they will throw you out....
as they did ME!

Then you can deal with ME!.........traitor!

 

[Thief]

THEN the other possible scenario.....

They let me in......and look me over.
They ask ....what do you believe?

If I do well, they will put a ring on my finger and a robe about my shoulders.

The robe....so I don't have to be embarrassing to myself or anyone else....
and a ring for a sign of belonging...
so no one questions how I got the fancy covering.

THEN, it's my turn at the Door......sword in hand.

What I allow in, is my responsibility.
and what if I let someone pass by and heaven then objects!

They will throw out what I have allowed......and me alongside it!!!!!

So....do we have what it takes?
Can we walk among the angelic without saying as they do?
Stand alongside with a lesser performance to report?

Have you read the first few lines of Job?

 

[Thief]

Almost forgot....

What you declare loose on earth shall be loose in heaven....
What you declare bound on earth shall be bound in heaven....

Apparently, the doorkeep will guard only that entrance he is able to.

 

[Thief]

Thief you are fun ! would that be why the angels would place a sword in your hand before you entered Heaven?

Another possibility!!!!!!.......

I stand....the angels put a sword in my hand......the devil behind me laughs!

Maybe.....there's one last test of proving?

 

[mystic64]

I stand up and to the right of me is a door.
The lord of this world says to me,
"If you knock on that door, it opens,
and you pass through it, you will die."

I say to the lord of this world,
"Scripture tells me that I will not die."

The lord of this world says to me,
"Do you believe a book that has no proof,
or do you believe what you see and the proof
is all around you?"

The lord of this world says to me, "You walk
through that door and you will die.
Come with me and you will live with me
forever."

The lord of this world says to me, "You suffer
because you seek the impossible. Come with me
and all things will be possible. Your nakedness
is not shame it is beauty. Choose life, choose me."

I say to the lord of this world, "The Book says
that you are evil and that I suffer because of you."

The lord of this world says to me, "You suffer
because of the Book. Without the Book you
would not suffer."

I think, "Should I choose a promise or
should I choose what I know to be real?"