God's Trinity

[Tranquil Servant]

Let me start off by saying the doctrine of the Trinity was in fact invented by the Roman Empire.
Next, we will never be able to understand God's true essence and Glory because we are merely human. We can only understand what he allows us to.
Maybe the reason why people don't understand the Trinity is because it was a doctrine invented by man in order to try to understand God but we have to accept there are certain things God doesn't want us to know; otherwise we would glorify ourselves.
I consider myself a follower of the Messiah (Jesus). I don't consider myself a "Christian" because (once again) I believe this was a label given by the Greeks and Romans after the time of Jesus in an attempt to degrade the followers of Jesus.
And I don't conform to the doctrine of the Trinity. I believe since God is all-knowing and the creator of all, he has many attributes, powers, and manifestations; some we think we understand and some we can never understand. Jesus is many manifestations in one; one that we can relate to in order for us to be able to understand God and his plan to the best of our ability. The same thing goes for the Holy spirit. In the Old Testament of the Bible God would bestow the Holy Spirit upon people for different reasons (miraculous powers, prophecy, interpret dreams, etc..) and people of those times didn't refer to God as being two (or multiple) persons. Also in the Old testament God appeared to several people in a physical form and they still didn't refer to him as a God with multiple persons.
I guess if a person want's to try to understand the "Trinity," the best way to look at it is-- the same way we (humans) are made up of mind, body, and soul (and other elements), God the creator can manifest many elements because he is the source of these elements.

 

[Shermana]

Sounds like you're a Modalist. Oneness Pentacostal?

 

[Tranquil Servant]

Sounds like you're a Modalist. Oneness Pentacostal?

Yeah.. I was looking into that but I'm not sure yet
Because of this (the part that's highlighted)---
"Oneness Pentecostalism defines salvation as repentance, baptism (in Jesus' name) and receipt of the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in other tongues."
Besides, like I said I don't wanna "label" myself (I'm open-minded and open to different interpretations)

 

[Muffled]

Yeah.. I was looking into that but I'm not sure yet
Because of this (the part that's highlighted)---
"Oneness Pentecostalism defines salvation as repentance, baptism (in Jesus' name) and receipt of the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in other tongues."
Besides, like I said I don't wanna "label" myself (I'm open-minded and open to different interpretations)

I agree. I was saved long before speaking in tongues. However speaking in tongues led to a closer walk with Jesus and an immediacy to salvation from onsetting sins.

I have never seen a good description of thier oneness beliefs. I wonder if it is codified since Pentecostalsim doesn't seem to emphasize doctrine.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

I think the authors of the NT bible had 3 different views of Jesus. Some verses suggest Jesus is YHWH. Some verses suggest Jesus is just a man a prophet and some verses suggest he is the special son of God. These ideas contradict the Jewish texts though, there is no special son of God were God creates the world through him, there is no trinity either. YHWH makes it very clear ONE GOD ONE SAVIOR, not 2. It's hard to understand cause the idea of God talking to himself is silly to us.

 

[kjw47]

I agree. I was saved long before speaking in tongues. However speaking in tongues led to a closer walk with Jesus and an immediacy to salvation from onsetting sins.

I have never seen a good description of thier oneness beliefs. I wonder if it is codified since Pentecostalsim doesn't seem to emphasize doctrine.

As one may be in a saved position now, one must still endure till the end. Gods word warns all--Beware if you think you are standing strong.
Solomon fell to satan--Judas an apostle fell to satan--many have fallen to satan--- but there is a mirror for all to peer into found in Gods written word-- it tells us who are the children of God and who are the children of satan-- it is found in 1 John 3-- it says this-- Its impossible for a child of God to practice even one sin.
I guess that is how Jesus could teach--Few will find the road leading to life( eternal)

 

[Shermana]

I think the authors of the NT bible had 3 different views of Jesus. Some verses suggest Jesus is YHWH. Some verses suggest Jesus is just a man a prophet and some verses suggest he is the special son of God. These ideas contradict the Jewish texts though, there is no special son of God were God creates the world through him, there is no trinity either. YHWH makes it very clear ONE GOD ONE SAVIOR, not 2. It's hard to understand cause the idea of God talking to himself is silly to us.

The verses that "Suggest Jesus is YHWH" are either twisted, interpolated, or misinterpreted using fabricated Grammar rules. NOTHING in the NT, when read correctly remotely indicates that Jesus is God. Only as "a god" at best.

As for being Savior, it must remembered that the text explicitly confirms that THE Savior Sends saviors.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

The verses that "Suggest Jesus is YHWH" are either twisted, interpolated, or misinterpreted using fabricated Grammar rules. NOTHING in the NT, when read correctly remotely indicates that Jesus is God. Only as "a god" at best.

As for being Savior, it must remembered that the text explicitly confirms that THE Savior Sends saviors.

What about when YHWH and Jesus are both called the first and the last. To me the first and last means eternal, always existed, so how can both be the first and the last? Also revelation seems to suggest that both YHWH and Jesus are sitting on the throne

 

[Muffled]

I think the authors of the NT bible had 3 different views of Jesus. Some verses suggest Jesus is YHWH. Some verses suggest Jesus is just a man a prophet and some verses suggest he is the special son of God. These ideas contradict the Jewish texts though, there is no special son of God were God creates the world through him, there is no trinity either. YHWH makes it very clear ONE GOD ONE SAVIOR, not 2. It's hard to understand cause the idea of God talking to himself is silly to us.

I can't say that talking to myself is ever silly. I take myself quite seriously. I suppose a person could view a funeral as silly if one wished.

I see no evidence of this.

I wouldn't consider son of God or prophet to be exceptional to being God. I don't believe scripture ever says that Jesus is "just" a prophet.

 

[Muffled]

The verses that "Suggest Jesus is YHWH" are either twisted, interpolated, or misinterpreted using fabricated Grammar rules. NOTHING in the NT, when read correctly remotely indicates that Jesus is God. Only as "a god" at best.

As for being Savior, it must remembered that the text explicitly confirms that THE Savior Sends saviors.

You are welcome to try proving this. I suspect when you refer to grammar rules you are referring to the time when Jesus said "before Abraham, I am."

This is the only instance that I coud find: Isa 19:20 And it shall be for a sign and for a witness unto Jehovah of hosts in the land of Egypt; for they shall cry unto Jehovah because of oppressors, and he will send them a saviour, and a defender, and he will deliver them.

This is what the NT says: Mat 1:20 But when he thought on these things, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.
21 And she shall bring forth a son; and thou shalt call his name JESUS; for it is he that shall save his people from their sins.

Who can save from sins? I beleive only God can because all others are the blind leading the blind.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

I can't say that talking to myself is ever silly. I take myself quite seriously. I suppose a person could view a funeral as silly if one wished.

I see no evidence of this.

I wouldn't consider son of God or prophet to be exceptional to being God. I don't believe scripture ever says that Jesus is "just" a prophet.

But would you pray to yourself and call yourself your father?

Jesus said we are all sons of God when he was being accused of blasphemy which suggests he was just a prophet.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

And by just a prophet I mean not divine like God.

 

[Shermana]

What about when YHWH and Jesus are both called the first and the last. To me the first and last means eternal, always existed, so how can both be the first and the last? Also revelation seems to suggest that both YHWH and Jesus are sitting on the throne

That's because Jesus is the Firstborn of Creation and the "Last Adam". It's not an exclusive title like "Alpha and Omega" would be.

(And Rev 22:13 is an Angel speaking the Message of the Father, not Jesus speaking, who begins speaking again in 22:16 to finish the message)

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

That's because Jesus is the Firstborn of Creation and the "Last Adam". It's not an exclusive title like "Alpha and Omega" would be.

(And Rev 22:13 is an Angel speaking the Message of the Father, not Jesus speaking, who begins speaking again in 22:16 to finish the message)

How do you know it wasn't meant to be an exclusive description when it was written about YHWH?

"I am the first and the last and apart from me there is no God" sounds pretty exclusive to me.

 

[Muffled]

But would you pray to yourself and call yourself your father?

Jesus said we are all sons of God when he was being accused of blasphemy which suggests he was just a prophet.

I have the Spirit of God in me who originates prayer to Himself. I don't call myself Father because I have no need. Jesus needed to identify Himself to those hearing Him.

This is not the context. I believe The context is that Jesus is defending calling Himself God. There was no mention of Jesus as a prophet, and I don't follow how you view the text as suggesting that He is merely one.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

I have the Spirit of God in me who originates prayer to Himself. I don't call myself Father because I have no need. Jesus needed to identify Himself to those hearing Him.

This is not the context. I believe The context is that Jesus is defending calling Himself God. There was no mention of Jesus as a prophet, and I don't follow how you view the text as suggesting that He is merely one.

If he needed to identify himself he should of just said I am God, you know make it clear "Hey guys I am God." He probably didn't cause lets face it if he tried to explain the trinity everyone even back then would of thought he was a nutter "I am god but not the father he is in heaven but I am here his son but god as well, so that's why I pray to myself" STEP AWAY PEOPLE.

Please explain how Jesus is saying that he is God by saying everyone is a son of God just like himself?

 

[Muffled]

If he needed to identify himself he should of just said I am God, you know make it clear "Hey guys I am God." He probably didn't cause lets face it if he tried to explain the trinity everyone even back then would of thought he was a nutter "I am god but not the father he is in heaven but I am here his son but god as well, so that's why I pray to myself" STEP AWAY PEOPLE.

Please explain how Jesus is saying that he is God by saying everyone is a son of God just like himself?

I believe He did do that by saying "I am" which is a name that God uses (He doesn't use the name God) in a context where it would be understood as using the name of God. I believe however he more often uses the term Father because it would have been well understood as a reference to the Creator and because Yahweh is the only father that Jesus has.

I believe God is often perceived that way because He doesn't view things the same way men view things. ("My thoughts are not your thoughts")

I believe you are incorrect; Jesus is not saying that the verse proves He is God but only that it isn't illegal for Him to call Himself God. I also believe He is not saying that he is god just as those in the verse are called gods.

 

[Shermana]

The name is actually "I shall be", (Ehyeh is not present tense) and with that said, Using the phrase "I am" is not anything remotely close to saying "My name is I am".

 

[Avoice]

Although of Christians claim they believe what your picture says, deep down I don't think they do. Most the time when they say God they mean God the Father, and speak of Christ as something separate.

The Bible says holy spirit is Jehovah's/God the Father's.

I believe that, as all His children who create things, God/Jehovah is what He creates and is above over and beyond all his creations. Thus my wording: God is Jesus. Some have twisted this into Jesus, the created, being God and that does not agree with the picture or my understanding of the Bible.

edited for punctuation.

 

[Avoice]

I believe He did do that by saying "I am" which is a name that God uses (He doesn't use the name God) in a context where it would be understood as using the name of God. I believe however he more often uses the term Father because it would have been well understood as a reference to the Creator and because Yahweh is the only father that Jesus has.

I believe God is often perceived that way because He doesn't view things the same way men view things. ("My thoughts are not your thoughts")

I believe you are incorrect; Jesus is not saying that the verse proves He is God but only that it isn't illegal for Him to call Himself God. I also believe He is not saying that he is god just as those in the verse are called gods.

I've looked through the surrounding verses and the Greek Jesus uses to say I am is the same as any other person in the surrounding verses uses. He's definitely not saying his name is "I AM".