God's Trinity

[Shermana]

They're stories -- not factual history.

Not necessarily, and as many Atheists and Evolutionists may say "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence". Even then, we have some evidence of some of the stories like the conquests of the Canaanite cities, but then it becomes a question of how to interpret the evidence.

The point being though, if you're basing your belief on what you call "Stories", then your belief is incredibly inconsistent. Do you believe that when G-d allows terrible things to happen to people that it's always meant to be viewed in the lens of Job?

 

[Shermana]

I think the book of Job makes a great theological argument against the idea that God just punished people.

I think you're ignoring the vast swaths of the text that says G-d DOES punish people, and that Job was meant to be viewed as an exception to the rule. Like I said, you'd basically be saying that Job Trumps and negates Isaiah and Jeremiah along with Amos and all the other prophets that clearly say that G-d punishes those who break his commandments. This is sorta an extreme example of cherry picking on your part.

 

[fallingblood]

I think you're ignoring the vast swaths of the text that says G-d DOES punish people, and that Job was meant to be viewed as an exception to the rule. Like I said, you'd basically be saying that Job Trumps and negates Isaiah and Jeremiah along with Amos and all the other prophets that clearly say that G-d punishes those who break his commandments. This is sorta an extreme example of cherry picking on your part.

Job was a theological argument against the standard idea that God punishes people. I think the argument in Job is much better than the various other arguments presented.

Especially when it is quite common for innocent people to suffer. And that is what Job is looking at. The fact that innocent people are punished for seemingly no reason.

It isn't cherry picking. It saying that the argument in the book of Job simply is better. Because it takes into consideration that innocent people do suffer.

 

[Shermana]

So you're ultimately saying that you can ignore all the parts of the Bible that clearly and inarguably say that G-d punishes those who break His commandments because of your interpretation of Job? Whether innocent people suffer or not has nothing to do with the fact that the text says G-d also punishes. Can you not at least conclude that G-d punishes as WELL as puts innocents through trials?

 

[outhouse]

Job was a theological argument against the standard idea that God punishes people. I think the argument in Job is much better than the various other arguments presented.

Especially when it is quite common for innocent people to suffer. And that is what Job is looking at. The fact that innocent people are punished for seemingly no reason.

It isn't cherry picking. It saying that the argument in the book of Job simply is better. Because it takes into consideration that innocent people do suffer.

every thought of not derailing this trinity thread?? with a offhand view of job?

 

[Shermana]

every thought of not derailing this trinity thread?? with a offhand view of job?

The question was how does G-d limit himself in response to my statement that the text says Jesus did not know the day or the hour and that he had revelations given to Him, demonstrating that He was not just an incarnation/avatar of the Father but a separate soul with his own mind. The response was that "The Father limits himself" and then the example was he limits Himself from punishing, which has absolutely nothing to do with the idea of limiting Himself in terms of what His supposed "Avatar" has knowledge of.

So then, the question still remains: Why did Jesus not know the day or the hour?

 

[outhouse]

The question was how does G-d limit himself in response to my statement that the text says Jesus did not know the day or the hour and that he had revelations given to Him, demonstrating that He was not just an incarnation/avatar of the Father but a separate soul with his own mind. The response was that "The Father limits himself" and then the example was he limits Himself from punishing, which has absolutely nothing to do with the idea of limiting Himself in terms of what His supposed "Avatar" has knowledge of.

So then, the question still remains: Why did Jesus not know the day or the hour?

we dont know that he did or didnt and the source of said statement, has more evidence of what the author wanted to say about biblical jesus, then what jesus may have really stated

 

[fallingblood]

every thought of not derailing this trinity thread?? with a offhand view of job?

It is actually within the topic at hand. Also, a pot shouldn't call a kettle black.

As for my view on Job, it isn't offhand at all. My view comes from leaders within the Jewish community, for the most part. There are a few Christian scholars who I have listened to on the subject, but the primary information that I have gotten on Job comes from Jewish scholars, who are in the mainstream.

 

[fallingblood]

So you're ultimately saying that you can ignore all the parts of the Bible that clearly and inarguably say that G-d punishes those who break His commandments because of your interpretation of Job? Whether innocent people suffer or not has nothing to do with the fact that the text says G-d also punishes. Can you not at least conclude that G-d punishes as WELL as puts innocents through trials?

I'm saying that the Bible contradicts itself. That or ideas evolved, and the author of Job challenged the accepted view. I think the argument that Job makes is better then the one that the prophets made.

I simply don't think God punishes people. I don't even know about putting people through tests. I think God created a world that is chaotic for a reason. And that God has limited Godself in order to allow his creation to act how he designed it to.

 

[Student of X]

Why did Jesus not know the day or the hour?

There is a psychic equivalent to the Heisenberg Uncertainty principle.

 

[Shermana]

It is actually within the topic at hand. Also, a pot shouldn't call a kettle black.

As for my view on Job, it isn't offhand at all. My view comes from leaders within the Jewish community, for the most part. There are a few Christian scholars who I have listened to on the subject, but the primary information that I have gotten on Job comes from Jewish scholars, who are in the mainstream.

Can you link to some statements of these "leaders of the Jewish community" and "Jewish scholars" that they believe the story of Job somehow means that all the times the Israelites were punished for disobeying the commandments in the text that it wasn't really punishment? Are these leaders of the Reform Jewish community by chance? Even the Talmud is big on who gets punished for what from what I understand.

 

[outhouse]

I'm saying that the Bible contradicts itself. That or ideas evolved, and the author of Job challenged the accepted view. I think the argument that Job makes is better then the one that the prophets made.

I simply don't think God punishes people. I don't even know about putting people through tests. I think God created a world that is chaotic for a reason. And that God has limited Godself in order to allow his creation to act how he designed it to.

god punishes job severely in this text

torture is a better word

 

[fallingblood]

Can you link to some statements of these "leaders of the Jewish community" and "Jewish scholars" that they believe the story of Job somehow means that all the times the Israelites were punished for disobeying the commandments in the text that it wasn't really punishment? Are these leaders of the Reform Jewish community by chance? Even the Talmud is big on who gets punished for what from what I understand.

The scholars that I have used are Robert Alter, Harold Kushner, David Zucker, Raymond Scheindlin, Solomon Freehof. I can also give you books if you want.

Now, I'm not stating what they personally believe (besides maybe Harold Kushner), but what they have said about the Job story.

 

[fallingblood]

god punishes job severely in this text

torture is a better word

That is only true if you haven't really read or understood the story. Instead of addressing it here, I have already started a thread: http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/general-religious-debates/130311-suffering-divine-speeches-job.html

 

[Shermana]

The scholars that I have used are Robert Alter, Harold Kushner, David Zucker, Raymond Scheindlin, Solomon Freehof. I can also give you books if you want.

Now, I'm not stating what they personally believe (besides maybe Harold Kushner), but what they have said about the Job story.

David Zucker appears to be Reform. Rabbinic

Scheindlin was a Rabbi at Kane Street in Brookyln which I think is liberal and reform as well.

Robert Alter seems to not be traditionalist either.

I Will look up the others, but so far I'm guessing your sources are not representative of the traditional Jewish thought on the matter and represent a liberal modernist view. When you say "Leaders of the Jewish community", it becomes a bit of a murky issue as to what branch of leaders these are. Using Reform and Liberal "leaders" to represent the Jewish community as a whole I'd say is a tad misleading in relation to the question of the traditional perspective. I'm guessing they don't incorporate the Talmud into their ideas to say the least.

Edit: Freehof is also Reform. Kushner is conservative but on the "progressive" side.

 

[Muffled]

How do you guys explain God's Trinity? For me is something that I will never understand until I will with him.

In a nutshell God has always labored to communicate with men as the Father.

He finds face to face contact to be better communication, since prophets have a bad habit of reinterpreting what God said.

As the Paraclete He can save us from our sins by being our resident Spirit. You can't get any closer than being inside us in control of our minds.

 

[Shermana]

He finds face to face contact to be better communication, since prophets have a bad habit of reinterpreting what God said.

Where do the scriptures give any indication that the appointed prophets (as opposed to false prophets) ever reinterpreted what He said?

 

[cablescavenger]

How do you guys explain God's Trinity? For me is something that I will never understand until I will with him.

For me it is a late addition to the bible.

 

[survivalapocalypserecipes]

Hello..

I think first of all this is not an invented thing - this is so from eternity and it will be like - for eternity.

The Father,Son and Holy Spirit are ONE - ONE in will , in purpose , in thinking , in everything.
Each one has their roles in this life...

Jesus ( the SON ) when left the earth he told us that he will send us someone in place and it did - The Holy Spirit - who is present in everyone`s soul.It depends on you if you recognize it or not.

Jesus when he died on the cross He was talking to the FATHER - Ely Ely , Lama Sabachtani.

It is simple , Three persons with their roles in our life - WITH THE SAME PURPOSE - they are ONE.

 

[FearGod]

now jesus is in the heaven with the father,or there is no more father.
Do Jesus still as human in the heaven sleeping,urinating..etc or he is
similar to the father,but separated from him.

the father and the son is one but the father is greater than the son
father = son BUT father > son

What kind of math or logic is this.

i am sorry,but to understand the trinity,you should close your mind and not to think wise.