GOP civil war

[Stevicus]

It's 14 months before the election and the gop seems already to be cracking under the issue of the criminal ex-president. I suspect some republicans realize the danger of Trump and don't want to put their heads on the chopping block to get death threats from Trump supporters. I hope Romney's revelations will lead smore republicans to come out of the fear chamber and stand up against the criminal ex-president and his dangerous rhetoric, and his dangerous followers.

I think they're stuck between a rock and a hard place at the moment. Trump seems to have the hearts and minds of the majority of the GOP, and any direct attacks on Trump by other members of the party seem to backfire.

They might do better to focus on who will be their Vice-Presidential candidate. Same for the Democrats, as this is going to be as much a contest of Vice President as it is for President. Let's face it, either way, the Vice President will be an octogenarian's heartbeat away from the Presidency. So, if Biden sticks with Harris and Trump picks someone like MTG to be his running mate, then Biden would probably get it, since an MTG presidency would be a nightmare for most of the civilized world.

 

[F1fan]

I think they're stuck between a rock and a hard place at the moment. Trump seems to have the hearts and minds of the majority of the GOP, and any direct attacks on Trump by other members of the party seem to backfire.

They might do better to focus on who will be their Vice-Presidential candidate. Same for the Democrats, as this is going to be as much a contest of Vice President as it is for President. Let's face it, either way, the Vice President will be an octogenarian's heartbeat away from the Presidency. So, if Biden sticks with Harris and Trump picks someone like MTG to be his running mate, then Biden would probably get it, since an MTG presidency would be a nightmare for most of the civilized world.

I can't see anyone wanting to be vp given what happened to pence. They would have to follow Trump 100%, and he's likely to become more extreme and unhinged, even if Trump wins the EC vote. I would not want to be part of a Trump administration at this point. We know pence had the flexibility to not know what Trump would do going into Jan 6. The next vp does know what Trump is capable of and would have a hard time keeping distance. I think a vp would be a Trump loyalist, and unlikely one of the other candidates. You mention MGT as vp, and that is a possibility. Could you imagine her as president? It would make Idiocracy look reasonable.

 

[Yazata]

Any disagreements within the Republican Party are their business and theirs alone. Outsiders don't have much standing to opine about those squabbles. ESPECIALLY any outsiders who hate Republicans.

Amen! I'm a registered Republican, though I feel little party loyalty to any party these days. (I'm more of a free-agent.) But I get really tired of the most left-wing sort of democrat telling me what I supposedly really think. It's almost always totally clueless and insulting as hell.

(I'm not suggesting the OP is among these.) The current heated discussions within the Republican Party are not at the level of a civil war.

Of course not.

I think that anyone who hopes to understand contemporary American politics needs to recognize that there's a huge reconfiguration of the political scene going on. It isn't just the Republicans undergoing it, it's both parties.

Throughout the 20th century, the democrats were the populist "people's" party of the blue-collar worker against the fat-cat Wall-Street elites. The democratic bastion was the industrial midwest. That rhetoric often came with Marxist imagery. The union "lunchbucket" voter was the party base.

Today the democrats seem to have largely abandoned the working and lower middle class. The left's new center of gravity seems to be celebrities, the coastal rich, university professors and government employees. The Wall-Street investor class and their ESG ideologies are moving to the democrats and the new target seems to be attracting young, single, college-indoctrinated females by emphasizing "gender" issues.

So there's been a wholesale movement of white working class and middle class males to the Republican party. Along with it, all the new emphasis on the gay movement and "transgender" subversion of traditional biological sex have alienated a big portion of the more socially conservative Hispanic electorate.

Donald Trump's brilliance in 2016 was recognizing that transformation of the political scene and riding it to victory. It's what enabled the Republicans to smash the fabled "blue wall" and turn much of the Midwest red. And that transformation of the Republican party has left the party's old prep-school, ivy-league elite leadership trying to find a new role for themselves in a party where the democrats have usurped their old "party of the elite" role, while the Republicans have moved in the populist direction so recently abandoned by the democrats and transformed themselves into the "party of the people".

To put it succinctly, the American political scene has more or less flipped upside down, with each party adopting the position that its opponent occupied in the 20th century.

 

[F1fan]

The thing is that Liz Cheney and Mitt Romney don't represent any big bloc of voters.

Which is a condemnation of the majority of conservative voters. The question is why don't more of these voters recognize ethics from criminality?

I watched a documentary on Netflix last night about how there were regional police forces in Germany during WW2 who were assigned duties to murder Jews. These were not Nazis, just volunteer police, some who were part of existing police departments. All police departments were nationalized. So these policemen were given a task to kill Jewish citizens. It wasn't an order, they were told that they had the option to refuse this duty. The one unit that was the focus of the documentary had 12 men of the over 100 member unit refuse. They suffered no official penalty but were assigned the worst duties, like latrine and kitchen duties. The documentary went on to report the exveriences of some of the men in the unit, and their reactions. There were experts that explained the pychology of these ordinary Germans who became murderers, and how their prejudice against Jews came from their government and society, and allowed them to justify murder. They justified killing babies and children by saying "what if these children grew up and learned their varents were murdered by these units, they would be in danger of revenge, so the children were killed to eliminate that future threat.

The documentray explained the dynamics of peer pressure to obey the government's policy of extermination, but also how the units themselves divided among different levels of moral coping. The leader of one unit was tried at Nuremburg and never acknowledged any wrongdoing. He had 5 children himself, but had no problem murdering mothers and children. To save ammo they would demand a mother hold the child and shoot them both with one bullet. He was hung for his crimes. A Jewish prosecutor, who was 100 in 2020 and still working, said he was an intelligent and well educated man. After his conviction the prosecutor went to see him in hopes of getting some remorse, but the Nazi still had no regrets. We can't underestimate the power of true belief, and how it can corrupt a mind.

They aren't giving voice to anything that large numbers of Americans are saying on the streets. The same is true of Bill Kristol and The Bulwark. Most of these people's support comes from lobbyists and inside the halls of the executive office buildings in Washington DC.

But they will land on their feet. The establishment news media and a certain kind of university will embrace them as their token "conservatives". If that doesn't work, they can always write for obscure little magazines that nobody reads, like The Bulwark.

I listen to the Bulwark podcast, and it is very good.

 

[wellwisher]

So, basic morality and how people are treated isn't important? Maybe tell that to the over 100 Capitol Police who were injured or killed on January 6th.

Actually on Jan 6, only 4 people died, all were innocent demonstrators who were killed by swamp police. In the proceeding days and weeks, there were four suicides by police officers, and few others also died of injuries or unrelated medical conditions . Only 4 died on Jan 6 due to swamp police.

Some people will commit suicide, after engaging in dangerous activities, if they feel too much guilt. The first footage from the Capital was very peaceful with Capital police giving tours to some of the demonstrators all in an orderly fashion. It turned ugly for some reason, as though on cue. My guess is the swamp needed wild footage, to edit it down to their prepared riot narrative. Turning ugly could explain the suicide by the police officers; too much guilt following the excessive force orders.

That day will be revisited by the Republicans since the analysis was lopsided and ignored basic questions like why didn't Pelosi prepare, seeing she had two days notice and Intel said she needed reinforcements? Was something already planned? Russia Collusion was started by Hillary's dossier, and blamed on Trump.

The two factions, in the Republican Party both want the same things, to get back to the Constitution. Restore human rights; individual freedoms of speech, religion, press, etc. Smaller Government and separation of powers, can make that possible. Biden censorship of free speech on social media and fake news propaganda was a large departure from free speech and free press. The attack on religion by the Left is another. Not Protecting the borders is another. Abuse of power by Biden and the Injustice system also needs to be addressed; Russian Collusion Coup and Biden corruption. There is also the unelected bureaucratic state that has take power away from Congress, and needs to be reduced, since it is not in the Constitution. There is also parental rights and education reform.

One Right wing faction is more practical, while the other wants to plow forward. Both agree on the goal but differ on how fast a speed of change.

The division on the Left is not about one party with the same goals. The blue collar workers are suffering under the immigration worker influx and the inflation caused by the gas taboo and the Democrat shut down of the economy by the left during COVIOD. Recent polls show that 70 of the population; left and right, think men and women sports should be play based on biological sex. Only 30% extreme left disagree.

The fake news narrative by the extreme left has blurred the lines to reality. More and more Latinos and Blacks no longer see the Democrats as a party, that is looking out for them. The powers prefer the rich or foreign. The extreme Left is too far out there for many Democrats.

The Republican are not against all Democrats, just the Extreme Left since they have taken away the most rights from all Americans. Reversing this is part of the Republican platform. But one faction would prefer go slow and the other wants to put on the brakes with a shut down.

The problem I have with a govenment shut down it is become a paid vacation for government employees. They get paid, later, for all the days they stay home. Only the tax payers and citizen loses benefits.

 

[Colt]

Whether it is McCarthy swearing at the extreme wing, Cheney's statement, Romney's retirement statement I think it's accurate to call what is going on a political civil war for control of the GOP. While I have extreme disagreements with the right's politics, the country would be well served by having honest debates about what is best for America rather than the current Trump/MAGA cult arm waving.

Cheney:

"Putin has now officially endorsed the Putin-wing of the Republican Party," Cheney tweeted over an AP News article about Russian President Vladimir Putin blasting the criminal indictments of Trump as "rotten" politically motivated prosecutions.

"Putin Republicans & their enablers will end up on the ash heap of history," continued Cheney. "Patriotic Americans in both parties who believe in the values of liberal democracy will make sure of it."

Romney:

"A very large portion of my party really doesn't believe in the Constitution,"

But obviously you never saw an Obama-Biden/hope and change cult arm waving?

 

[metis]

Actually on Jan 6, only 4 people died, all were innocent demonstrators who were killed by swamp police. In the proceeding days and weeks, there were four suicides by police officers, and few others also died of injuries or unrelated medical conditions . Only 4 died on Jan 6 due to swamp police.

Complete unadulterated nonsense. If you really wanted to see and hear reality, then you can watch the recorded January 6th Hearings whereas most of those that testified said that Trump welcomed and encouraged it, plus Trump refused to call off the insurgency until almost 4 hours as he watched it on t.v. according to his own daughter. Most of the testimony you will see and hear is from those who were appointed by him and/or close to him.

Here, if you really want to see and hear the truth, watch the recording hearings on YouTube:

 

[Left Coast]

Amen! I'm a registered Republican, though I feel little party loyalty to any party these days. (I'm more of a free-agent.) But I get really tired of the most left-wing sort of democrat telling me what I supposedly really think. It's almost always totally clueless and insulting as hell.



Of course not.

I think that anyone who hopes to understand contemporary American politics needs to recognize that there's a huge reconfiguration of the political scene going on. It isn't just the Republicans undergoing it, it's both parties.

Throughout the 20th century, the democrats were the populist "people's" party of the blue-collar worker against the fat-cat Wall-Street elites. The democratic bastion was the industrial midwest. That rhetoric often came with Marxist imagery. The union "lunchbucket" voter was the party base.

Today the democrats seem to have largely abandoned the working and lower middle class. The left's new center of gravity seems to be celebrities, the coastal rich, university professors and government employees. The Wall-Street investor class and their ESG ideologies are moving to the democrats and the new target seems to be attracting young, single, college-indoctrinated females by emphasizing "gender" issues.

So there's been a wholesale movement of white working class and middle class males to the Republican party. Along with it, all the new emphasis on the gay movement and "transgender" subversion of traditional biological sex have alienated a big portion of the more socially conservative Hispanic electorate.

Donald Trump's brilliance in 2016 was recognizing that transformation of the political scene and riding it to victory. It's what enabled the Republicans to smash the fabled "blue wall" and turn much of the Midwest red. And that transformation of the Republican party has left the party's old prep-school, ivy-league elite leadership trying to find a new role for themselves in a party where the democrats have usurped their old "party of the elite" role, while the Republicans have moved in the populist direction so recently abandoned by the democrats and transformed themselves into the "party of the people".

To put it succinctly, the American political scene has more or less flipped upside down, with each party adopting the position that its opponent occupied in the 20th century.

Parts of this I agree with, others not so much. It's true that Trump mobilized a segment of white, uneducated, low- to middle-income men to vote for him, and that did help him win in 2016. These were mainly politically apathetic folks who rarely if ever voted before. And it's also true that he used the kind of populist rhetoric the Left often does to stir up angst against the elites to garner votes. Ironically, of course, Trump and his family are quintessential elites: born with silver spoons in their mouths, living at one point in a literal gold-gilded mansion.

In terms of who supports the working class in actual policy, it's a mixed bag. Trump's protectionism, a set of policies usually championed by the Left, was not good overall for working class people. He cut taxes, but those cuts mainly benefitted the rich. He gutted the ACA, increasing the uninsured population (it's not the rich who can't afford health insurance). The Right's broad anti-intellectualism these days, deriding college as somehow "elitist," (or their new favorite word, "woke") is also contrary to the interests of working people, most of whom financially benefit in the long term from going to college. And of course Trump's immigration policies hurt working class immigrants and their families.

So yes, political winds are shifting, but it's not a precise inversion of where we were in the 1950s. Both parties carry their share of "elites" (Dems mostly in the arts and tech, Reps mostly in other business) while both of them compete for who can seem the most populist as they vie for a narrow band of apathetic and true swing voters.

 

[Wandering Monk]

Amen! I'm a registered Republican, though I feel little party loyalty to any party these days. (I'm more of a free-agent.) But I get really tired of the most left-wing sort of democrat telling me what I supposedly really think. It's almost always totally clueless and insulting as hell.



Of course not.

I think that anyone who hopes to understand contemporary American politics needs to recognize that there's a huge reconfiguration of the political scene going on. It isn't just the Republicans undergoing it, it's both parties.

Throughout the 20th century, the democrats were the populist "people's" party of the blue-collar worker against the fat-cat Wall-Street elites. The democratic bastion was the industrial midwest. That rhetoric often came with Marxist imagery. The union "lunchbucket" voter was the party base.

Today the democrats seem to have largely abandoned the working and lower middle class. The left's new center of gravity seems to be celebrities, the coastal rich, university professors and government employees. The Wall-Street investor class and their ESG ideologies are moving to the democrats and the new target seems to be attracting young, single, college-indoctrinated females by emphasizing "gender" issues.

So there's been a wholesale movement of white working class and middle class males to the Republican party. Along with it, all the new emphasis on the gay movement and "transgender" subversion of traditional biological sex have alienated a big portion of the more socially conservative Hispanic electorate.

Donald Trump's brilliance in 2016 was recognizing that transformation of the political scene and riding it to victory. It's what enabled the Republicans to smash the fabled "blue wall" and turn much of the Midwest red. And that transformation of the Republican party has left the party's old prep-school, ivy-league elite leadership trying to find a new role for themselves in a party where the democrats have usurped their old "party of the elite" role, while the Republicans have moved in the populist direction so recently abandoned by the democrats and transformed themselves into the "party of the people".

To put it succinctly, the American political scene has more or less flipped upside down, with each party adopting the position that its opponent occupied in the 20th century.

Just a reminder: Trump lost the popular vote in 2016.

 

[anna.]

Just a reminder: Trump lost the popular vote in 2016.

He also seems to have lost his mind. He's afraid President Biden will lead us into WWII.

https://x.com/RpsAgainstTrump/status/1703064502915231975?s=20

 

[Wandering Monk]

He also seems to have lost his mind. He's afraid President Biden will lead us into WWII.

https://x.com/RpsAgainstTrump/status/1703064502915231975?s=20

Trump wanted the US out of NATO. WWIII would have been a victory for Putin.

 

[fantome profane]

Trump wanted the US out of NATO. WWIII would have been a victory for Putin.

I think you missed the point. Trump is worried Biden is going to start World War Two. Ya know, cuz of Biden’s cognitive impairment.

This concern comes from the same brilliant military mind that thinks the American colonial army had airports.

 

[anna.]

Trump wanted the US out of NATO. WWIII would have been a victory for Putin.

See @fantome profane 's above reply to you, for clarity I too should've written World War Two.

That's what so appallingly ironic about the whole clip, he's dinging President Biden for being "cognitively impaired" (Trump can barely even pronounce the word) when Trump can't even keep his wars straight.

 

[Shaul]

Kinzinger and Cheney were the only Republicans who voted in favor of there being a committee at all. Did you want people serving on the committee who didn't want it to exist? I'll remember that.

If Cheney and Kinzinger served on the committee with Democrats, and they were Republicans, it was by definition a bipartisan committee. This is the label attached all the time to anything where even one member of the opposing party switches sides for a vote or participates in something. Anyone with any familiarity with politics at all knows that doesn't mean it's a 50/50 split.

So no, that isn't a lying narrative.

Regardless of what you or I want, the Republican Party stated what they wanted. They wanted a balanced non-partisan forum. The Democrats instead chose to create a partisan forum. Both Cheney and Kinzinger chose to knowingly violate the stated position of the Republican Party that it would not participate. This means that they were NOT acting as Republicans on the Committee but as individual. There was not Republican participation on the Committee. All this is clear from an official Republican Party resolution linked below:

 

[Left Coast]

Regardless of what you or I want, the Republican Party stated what they wanted. They wanted a balanced non-partisan forum. The Democrats instead chose to create a partisan forum. Both Cheney and Kinzinger chose to knowingly violate the stated position of the Republican Party that it would not participate. This means that they were NOT acting as Republicans on the Committee but as individual. There was not Republican participation on the Committee. All this is clear from an official Republican Party resolution linked below:
View attachment 82249
View attachment 82248

The GOP did not say they wanted a nonpartisan forum, lol. The very statement you just posted contradicts you. Their goal is to get Republicans elected above all else. They provided zero reasons against the formation of the committee other than pretending that Janaury 6th was just like any other "political discourse," which is either laughably delusional or a lie.

So the only "lying narrative" here is the GOP nonsense party line.

 

[Shaul]

The GOP did not say they wanted a nonpartisan forum, lol. The very statement you just posted contradicts you. Their goal is to get Republicans elected above all else. They provided zero reasons against the formation of the committee other than pretending that Janaury 6th was just like any other "political discourse," which is either laughably delusional or a lie.

So the only "lying narrative" here is the GOP nonsense party line.

"Representatives Cheney and Kinzinger have engaged in actions in their positions as members of the January 6th Select Committee not befitting Republican members of Congress, which include the Committee's disregard for minority rights, traditional checks and balances, due process, and adherence to other precedent and rules of the U.S. House and which seem intent on advancing a political agenda to buoy the Democrat Party's bleak prospects in the upcoming midterm elections".

And,

"Representatives Cheney and Kinzinger are participating ina Democrat-led persecution of ordinary citizens engaged in legitimate political discourse, and they are both utilizing their past professed political affiliation to mask Democrat abuse of prosecutorial power for partisan purposes"

Liz Cheney demonstrated unprincipled actions. She knowingly violated the stated objectives of the Republican Party to which she joined of her own volition. She lacked the integrity to quit the Republican Party while really pursuing Democrat Party goals. Republican voters rejected her in large part because she was a complete phoney.

 

[Left Coast]

"Representatives Cheney and Kinzinger have engaged in actions in their positions as members of the January 6th Select Committee not befitting Republican members of Congress, which include the Committee's disregard for minority rights, traditional checks and balances, due process, and adherence to other precedent and rules of the U.S. House and which seem intent on advancing a political agenda to buoy the Democrat Party's bleak prospects in the upcoming midterm elections".

All nonsense. Go on?

And,

"Representatives Cheney and Kinzinger are participating ina Democrat-led persecution of ordinary citizens engaged in legitimate political discourse, and they are both utilizing their past professed political affiliation to mask Democrat abuse of prosecutorial power for partisan purposes"

Yes, I already pointed that out. Either delusional or a lie. There is no rational way to compare Jan 6 to "legitimate political discourse." Laughable.

Liz Cheney demonstrated unprincipled actions. She knowingly violated the stated objectives of the Republican Party to which she joined of her own volition. She lacked the integrity to quit the Republican Party while really pursuing Democrat Party goals.

No, not Democratic Party goals, Constitutional and legal ones.

Republican voters rejected her in large part because she was a complete phoney.

No, they rejected her because she dared to call out their Messiah and his devotees to whom they give unquestioning fealty.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

I see them more as reality challenged.

As you would be, if you had to listen endlessly to the likes of Marjorie Taylor Green and Matt Gaetz.

I would probably have to commit seppuku!

 

[Shaul]

All nonsense. Go on?

Yes, I already pointed that out. Either delusional or a lie. There is no rational way to compare Jan 6 to "legitimate political discourse." Laughable.

No, not Democratic Party goals, Constitutional and legal ones.

No, they rejected her because she dared to call out their Messiah and his devotees to whom they give unquestioning fealty.

Basically you agree with all the violations that the Joe Biden and the Democrats are making against the civil and constitutional rights of citizens. You agree with their weaponizing Federal agencies against the populace, demagoguery of dissenters, and their corruption.

 

[Left Coast]

Basically you agree with all the violations that the Joe Biden and the Democrats are making against the civil and constitutional rights of citizens. You agree with their weaponizing Federal agencies against the populace, demagoguery of dissenters, and their corruption.

What civil and constitutional rights of citizens were violated by the Jan. 6th committee? The Jan. 6th folks who were prosecuted were not "dissenters." breaking into Congresspeople's offices crosses a teeny bit further than that.

Any other silly excuses you wanna throw out?