Gospel of Thomas verse 29

[crossfire]

I'm starting this thread upon request:

Well heck, if we are getting into the Gospel of Thomas, let us look at GOT verse 29:

(29) Jesus said, "If the flesh came into being because of spirit, it is a wonder. But if spirit came into being because of the body, it is a wonder of wonders. Indeed, I am amazed at how this great wealth has made its home in this poverty."​

-source-

{I've always acknowledged the body-mind connection, and the mind-spirit connection. The body-spirit connection? hmmmmmmm}

Would you care to post this as a thread start?
I think this could be good topic.

Feel free to bring other verses from the Gospel of Thomas in.

 

[Thief]

Ok....you quote Thomas....
I was aiming to get to the relationship of spirit and flesh.

The quote at hand suggests God before substance?
and then Man as a means to form spirit...using the flesh to insure the unique perspective?

That seems to be the intention.
Would you agree?

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

Ok....you quote Thomas....
I was aiming to get to the relationship of spirit and flesh.

The quote at hand suggests God before substance?
and then Man as a means to form spirit...using the flesh to insure the unique perspective?

That seems to be the intention.
Would you agree?

The quote seems to suggest that the act of Spirit creating Flesh is a wonder, but if the spirit came from the flesh that would even be more amazing.

The last quote can be taken that the spirit is the one dwelling in poverty (the flesh), though that just works if you go along with the mysticism.

Assuming that the Gospel of Thomas is a Gnostic text it fits. However if we look at it as a none Gnostic text (given that it does accept reality), it may be pointing that the body is the one living in a spiritually impoverished world.

 

[crossfire]

Ok....you quote Thomas....
I was aiming to get to the relationship of spirit and flesh.

Hey, if that's where you want to take the thread, feel free to do so.

 

[Jainarayan]

The quote seems to suggest that the act of Spirit creating Flesh is a wonder, but if the spirit came from the flesh that would even be more amazing.

Jivanmukti... enlightenment and liberation while in the body.

 

[crossfire]

The quote seems to suggest that the act of Spirit creating Flesh is a wonder, but if the spirit came from the flesh that would even be more amazing.

The last quote can be taken that the spirit is the one dwelling in poverty (the flesh), though that just works if you go along with the mysticism.

Assuming that the Gospel of Thomas is a Gnostic text it fits. However if we look at it as a none Gnostic text (given that it does accept reality), it may be pointing that the body is the one living in a spiritually impoverished world.

Or it might be that the impoverishment referred to is the lack of mindfulness.

Discourse on spiritual development from mindfulness of the flesh:

Kayagata-sati Sutta: Mindfulness Immersed in the Body

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

I suppose by what you mean by spirit. Before the understanding of the brain, the Spirit was something completely separate from the body as a whole and the included the brain. It's one of the reasons I think, that we still say things like "feel with our hearts".

Though I am one of those who believes the mind is emergent of the brain and not some separate thing that exists away from it. Which I think this verse fits well.

The spirit is the mind, and it has come from the flesh (the brain). Something so powerful inhabited by what would just appear to be a mass of just gray matter.

 

[crossfire]

I suppose by what you mean by spirit. Before the understanding of the brain, the Spirit was something completely separate from the body as a whole and the included the brain. It's one of the reasons I think, that we still say things like "feel with our hearts".

Though I am one of those who believes the mind is emergent of the brain and not some separate thing that exists away from it. Which I think this verse fits well.

The spirit is the mind, and it has come from the flesh (the brain). Something so powerful inhabited by what would just appear to be a mass of just gray matter.

Our brains aren't just any old mass of gray matter:

100 trillion Minimum number of neural connections, or synapses, in the human brain. That is at least 1,000 times the number of stars in our galaxy. British researchers reported in December that genes involved in the workings of synapses account for about 
7 percent of our genome.

-source-Discover Magazine-​

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

Our brains aren't just any old mass of gray matter:

100 trillion Minimum number of neural connections, or synapses, in the human brain. That is at least 1,000 times the number of stars in our galaxy. British researchers reported in December that genes involved in the workings of synapses account for about 
7 percent of our genome.

-source-Discover Magazine-​

I know, but in appearance it would seem so.

 

[crossfire]

I know, but in appearance it would seem so.

To the unmindful.

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

To the unmindful.

Which was most of the world at the time I suppose?

I mean think about it.

Blood was said to carry life (good ol' parasites actually lol)

and the heart was associated with emotions.

But now we know that in some way shape or form they have their origins in the brain.

Even our most basic reaction of fear.

 

[Thief]

For me it's more like....
Having made light and the universe (one word)
The declaration "I AM!".... becomes 'solid'........firmament.

Having done so the situation is then clear.
He was the First, in mind and spirit.
That would be a wonder.

But then the awareness of complete solitude.
Alone.

If you set yourself in more than one place, you end up talking to yourself.....
Your image and your echo.
That doesn't really suffice.....does it?

With no other alternative.....you place spirit into the substance.
You give that combination....breath.

You then stand back and wait to see....whatever might stand up from the dust.

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

Feel free to bring other verses from the Gospel of Thomas in.

Why are we looking at one of the most sexist texts in antiquity?
"Simon Peter said to him, “Let Mary leave us, for women are not worthy of life”. Jesus said, “I myself shall lead her in order to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males. For every woman who will make herself male will enter the kingdom of heaven”."

 

[Thief]

Why are we looking at one of the most sexist texts in antiquity?
"Simon Peter said to him, “Let Mary leave us, for women are not worthy of life”. Jesus said, “I myself shall lead her in order to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males. For every woman who will make herself male will enter the kingdom of heaven”."

I don't think Jesus was referring to the body.
He was speaking of the firm 'attitude' typically held by the men of the community.

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

He was speaking of the firm 'attitude' typically held by the men of the community.

Could you elaborate?

 

[Thief]

Could you elaborate?

I thought the Jews were a male dominate style of living.
Strongly opposed that women should speak their minds.
If a women should ever have influence...it would be through her husband.

Mary (apparently) was taught in a manner equal to the other disciples.
THAT would cause objection.
To the degree the other disciples might speak of death.

 

[psychoslice]

Why are we looking at one of the most sexist texts in antiquity?
"Simon Peter said to him, “Let Mary leave us, for women are not worthy of life”. Jesus said, “I myself shall lead her in order to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males. For every woman who will make herself male will enter the kingdom of heaven”."

Interpretation:
This logion reveals the ignorance of Simon Peter, concerning the nature of the Self. At this time, Simon Peter regarded Mary as a female physical being, and therefore considered her not worthy of Jesus’ teachings or to enter the Kingdom. At this time, Mary also considered herself as a female physical being, but Jesus knew that she was a spiritual being, and that all spiritual beings are referred to as male. Jesus also new, that it was only the mind that was referred to as female.
When Jesus said that he would lead Mary in order to make her male, what he meant was that he would teach her to come to know herself as a spiritual being, which were make her spiritually a male. It is only those who have come to know themselves as a spiritual being that are referred to as, living spirits.

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

Interpretation:
This logion reveals the ignorance of Simon Peter, concerning the nature of the Self. At this time, Simon Peter regarded Mary as a female physical being, and therefore considered her not worthy of Jesus’ teachings or to enter the Kingdom. At this time, Mary also considered herself as a female physical being, but Jesus knew that she was a spiritual being, and that all spiritual beings are referred to as male. Jesus also new, that it was only the mind that was referred to as female.
When Jesus said that he would lead Mary in order to make her male, what he meant was that he would teach her to come to know herself as a spiritual being, which were make her spiritually a male. It is only those who have come to know themselves as a spiritual being that are referred to as, living spirits.

Peter says Mary isn't worthy of even being alive. Jesus doesn't correct him. He states instead that he will make her male to correct the problem. Why doesn't he correct Peter rather than stating that he will correct Mary to fix Peter's problem?

 

[psychoslice]

Peter says Mary isn't worthy of even being alive. Jesus doesn't correct him. He states instead that he will make her male to correct the problem. Why doesn't he correct Peter rather than stating that he will correct Mary to fix Peter's problem?

Peter wasn't Enlightened enough to realize this, Jesus was talking to him on his level.

 

[crossfire]

I thought the Jews were a male dominate style of living.
Strongly opposed that women should speak their minds.
If a women should ever have influence...it would be through her husband.

Mary (apparently) was taught in a manner equal to the other disciples.
THAT would cause objection.
To the degree the other disciples might speak of death.

Actually, that was more like the Greek Hellenists than the Jews.