• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Gospel of Thomas verse 29

mystic64

nolonger active
I'm thinking that this discussion about sexism as it relates to the Gospel of Thomas is quite enlightening regarding the relationship of spirit and flesh. ;)

Crossfire I would personally like to thank you for starting this topic and thank the person that suggested that it be created. The Book of Thomas is a radical piece of work when it comes to things that Jesus is quoted to have said and is full of interesting things that would be fun to kick around.

about sexist: "Thou shall not be sexist and see the Kingdom :) ." At the same time, "What happens on Earth happens in Heaven." So one wonders about these things, some times :) .
 

mystic64

nolonger active
Doesn't the gospel of Thomas also focus more on reality compared to the spiritual realm of gnostic teachings?

Yours is an interesting question. First of all one would have to define "reality" so that it could be separated from that which is considered "spirit". And for some of us the "physical reality" and the "spirit reality" are just two different aspects of the same thing. It is kind of looking through two lenses and through one lens you see the spirit (energy) reality and through the other lens you see the physical (mass) reality. And when you are are looking through both lenses at the same time (your male and female are in a state of balance) you see stereo. You see physical reality and the energy world that exists with it and how these two realities interplay with and effect each other.

So I guess that my question to you and anybody else that would like to comment is, "What is your definition of "reality"?" How one defines "reality" would definitely influence the meanings that they find in the sayings of Jesus in the "Book of Thomas".
 

FranklinMichaelV.3

Well-Known Member
Yours is an interesting question. First of all one would have to define "reality" so that it could be separated from that which is considered "spirit". And for some of us the "physical reality" and the "spirit reality" are just two different aspects of the same thing. It is kind of looking through two lenses and through one lens you see the spirit (energy) reality and through the other lens you see the physical (mass) reality. And when you are are looking through both lenses at the same time (your male and female are in a state of balance) you see stereo. You see physical reality and the energy world that exists with it and how these two realities interplay with and effect each other.

So I guess that my question to you and anybody else that would like to comment is, "What is your definition of "reality"?" How one defines "reality" would definitely influence the meanings that they find in the sayings of Jesus in the "Book of Thomas".

That's reality, I'm not a fan of "define reality" it's what my senses present to me. Anything more to me is speculation.
 

mystic64

nolonger active
That's reality, I'm not a fan of "define reality" it's what my senses present to me. Anything more to me is speculation.

Well ok, and I am inclined to agree with you. And if I haven't experienced it, then I am sometimes a bit skeptical about it. With that said, some folks ask, "How can you truly trust your senses because sometimes what our senses tell us is caused by some sort of chemical imbalance in the brain?" That is what makes Lord Jesus and the things that He is quoted to have said interesting. Because most of what He talks about a normal person can not do let alone understand. And for the most part the people that claim to see and to understand seem to have some kind of chemical imbalance going on in their brain. At least relative to what is generally considered the normal person.

From the "Book of Thomas", "Heaven is all around you, you just can not see it." You say, "What!?" And if you go around telling people that Heaven is all around you and that you can see it, they will put you on medication that will fix that problem :) .

I love this topic! and if management allows me, I am going to be here all winter long :) . The Book of Thomas has so many interesting things to explore.
 

crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic Bully ☿
Premium Member
Well ok, and I am inclined to agree with you. And if I haven't experienced it, then I am sometimes a bit skeptical about it. With that said, some folks ask, "How can you truly trust your senses because sometimes what our senses tell us is caused by some sort of chemical imbalance in the brain?" That is what makes Lord Jesus and the things that He is quoted to have said interesting. Because most of what He talks about a normal person can not do let alone understand. And for the most part the people that claim to see and to understand seem to have some kind of chemical imbalance going on in their brain. At least relative to what is generally considered the normal person.

From the "Book of Thomas", "Heaven is all around you, you just can not see it." You say, "What!?" And if you go around telling people that Heaven is all around you and that you can see it, they will put you on medication that will fix that problem :) .

I love this topic! and if management allows me, I am going to be here all winter long :) . The Book of Thomas has so many interesting things to explore.
Well heck, here are some verses to go with your post:

(2) Jesus said, "Let him who seeks continue seeking until he finds. When he finds, he will become troubled. When he becomes troubled, he will be astonished, and he will rule over the All."

<...>

(5) Jesus said, "Recognize what is in your sight, and that which is hidden from you will become plain to you . For there is nothing hidden which will not become manifest."

<...>

(17) Jesus said, "I shall give you what no eye has seen and what no ear has heard and what no hand has touched and what has never occurred to the human mind."
 

FranklinMichaelV.3

Well-Known Member
Well ok, and I am inclined to agree with you. And if I haven't experienced it, then I am sometimes a bit skeptical about it. With that said, some folks ask, "How can you truly trust your senses because sometimes what our senses tell us is caused by some sort of chemical imbalance in the brain?" That is what makes Lord Jesus and the things that He is quoted to have said interesting. Because most of what He talks about a normal person can not do let alone understand. And for the most part the people that claim to see and to understand seem to have some kind of chemical imbalance going on in their brain. At least relative to what is generally considered the normal person.

From the "Book of Thomas", "Heaven is all around you, you just can not see it." You say, "What!?" And if you go around telling people that Heaven is all around you and that you can see it, they will put you on medication that will fix that problem :) .

I love this topic! and if management allows me, I am going to be here all winter long :) . The Book of Thomas has so many interesting things to explore.

I mean your senses can lie to you, but even if it is a lie, that doesn't make it not reality either.
 

mystic64

nolonger active
I mean your senses can lie to you, but even if it is a lie, that doesn't make it not reality either.

I agree with you. As a mystic I have had a lot of experiences that were real to me, but as far as I am concerned any experience that can not be correlated with physical reality (measured by science in someway) is "speculation" :) . I have been exploring the human mind and its relationship to the "Unknown" for most of my life and sorting out what is real and what is not real from the experience is very challenging to say the least. And all of it is real relative to the experience.

The Book of Thomas; (17) Jesus said, "I shall give you what no eye has seen and what no ear has heard and what no hand has touched and what has never occurred to the human mind." :) and from there you and Him have to sit down and sort it out, which can take years, otherwise it is just nothing but insanity.
 

mystic64

nolonger active
Well heck, here are some verses to go with your post:
(2) Jesus said, "Let him who seeks continue seeking until he finds. When he finds, he will become troubled. When he becomes troubled, he will be astonished, and he will rule over the All."

<...>

(5) Jesus said, "Recognize what is in your sight, and that which is hidden from you will become plain to you . For there is nothing hidden which will not become manifest."

<...>

(17) Jesus said, "I shall give you what no eye has seen and what no ear has heard and what no hand has touched and what has never occurred to the human mind."

Whoa Crossfire! Those are kickers, every single one :) ! What is funny is that He has several Phd's in this stuff and He is talking to folks that for the most part are not even in Kindergarten yet. What He says is actually true, but what He doesn't say is the twelve or "many more" years of intense higher education that are required under His tutelage.

Do you (or anybody) have anymore of these "kickers" to share Crossfire?
 

Trolle

Just Be
I remember when I first read the Gospel of Thomas years ago and was thoroughly confused by the sayings. Now that I have a more knowledge of Christian mysticism I am able to understand a majority of them. I'm sure these sayings were confusing to the Apostles as well and is probably one of the main reasons why this book fell out of favor with the general public.
 

nazz

Doubting Thomas
I have always found this passage very interesting. I see as relating to some ideas I have about mind and body. I interpret it like this: it is a wonder that a spiritual force could create matter (I've not figured out how that can happen) but it is even more fantastic that mere matter could produce something spiritual (or non-physical) like consciousness.
 

nazz

Doubting Thomas
Peter says Mary isn't worthy of even being alive. Jesus doesn't correct him. He states instead that he will make her male to correct the problem. Why doesn't he correct Peter rather than stating that he will correct Mary to fix Peter's problem?

But I don't think Jesus was talking about a sex change operation. I think something metaphorically was intended. That said it does come off as rather sexist.
 

nazz

Doubting Thomas
Thomas is filled with symbolism, as are multiple so-called "gnostic" texts. But there use words and/or constructions to alert the reader to these. Here, we have no such indications. We have no typical symbolism (typical even within Thomas). What we do have is a latent sexism within virtually all texts from this period, but especially within certain "gnostic" texts which displayed a hatred for the body and bodily functions and which especially blamed females. Thomas seems to be just an early version of the rampant sexist ideology that consumed many a gnostic focus.

There is controversy over considering Thomas a Gnostic work. The majority of Gnostic texts take a very positive view of women as equals, or even in some cases superior, to men.
 

nazz

Doubting Thomas
It also says this -

(22) Jesus saw some infants at the breast. He said to his disciples: These little ones at the breast are like those who enter into the kingdom. They said to him: If we then be children, shall we enter the kingdom? Jesus said to them: When you make the two one, and when you make the inside as the outside, and the outside as the inside, and the upper side as the lower; and when you make the male and the female into a single one, that the male be not male and the female (not) female; when you make eyes in the place of an eye, and a hand in place of a hand, and a foot in place of a foot, an image in place of an image, then shall you enter [the kingdom].

Perhaps he was referring to the verse above - and should have added - (or perhaps he did and they purposely left it out? :D) --


“AND I myself shall lead YOU in order to make YOU FEMALE, so that YOU too may become a living spirit resembling the FEMALES. For every MAN who will make HIMSELF FEMALE will enter the kingdom of heaven."


*

good point!
 

Trolle

Just Be
I pretty much interpret it the same way. I would add that Jesus was amazed that such an perfect thing as the spirit would dwell in a body that was in such an imperfect world.
 

Trolle

Just Be
But I don't think Jesus was talking about a sex change operation. I think something metaphorically was intended. That said it does come off as rather sexist.

I believe Jesus was definitely speaking metaphorically as he does throughout the Book of Thomas. He viewed himself as a spiritual being that had no sexual identification and this quote reflects that belief.
 

mystic64

nolonger active
I remember when I first read the Gospel of Thomas years ago and was thoroughly confused by the sayings. Now that I have a more knowledge of Christian mysticism I am able to understand a majority of them. I'm sure these sayings were confusing to the Apostles as well and is probably one of the main reasons why this book fell out of favor with the general public.

Hi Trolle and welcome to this message board! Your point is well taken.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
But I don't think Jesus was talking about a sex change operation. I think something metaphorically was intended. That said it does come off as rather sexist.

Oh it was absolutely metaphorical. And while I don’t entirely agree with Ehrman’s description, I read it when I first started studying Gnosticism, so it is simpler than better explanations I might paraphrase and much better than trying to express my interpretation. Namely, the logion posits a spiritual hierarchy, something fairly universal in so-called gnostic texts (though by no means in one form). The highest levels were not of this world, while the lowest were non-living things. All humans, of course, had to attain a “spiritual level” beyond that born with (usually beyond the world born in). However, females, being “lower” than males, had an extra step. Only by reaching the spiritual stage of males could they then enter the kingdom of heaven. The fact that it is metaphorical doesn’t seem to me to make it less sexist.


Nor is it unique to the Gospel of Thomas:

“Then Mary stood up, greeted them all, and said to her brethren, “Do not weep and do not grieve or be irresolute, for his grace will be entirely with you and will protect you. But rather let us praise his greatness, for he has prepared us and made us into men.” When Mary said this, she turned their hearts to the Good, and they began to discuss the words of the Saviour” (Gospel of Mary, 5.2-5)


To quote Pagel’s The Gnostic Gospels on this logion, “Strange as it sounds, this simply states what religious rhetoric assumes: that the men form the legitimate body of the community, while women are allowed to participate only when they assimilate themselves to men.”


There is controversy over considering Thomas a Gnostic work. The majority of Gnostic texts take a very positive view of women as equals, or even in some cases superior, to men.


There’s controversy over whether Gnosticism refers to any meaningful category at all (as you know, I believe; if memory serves you’ve read Williams’ Rethinking Gnosticism). But I think we’d both probably think of most of the same texts and persons if asked about Gnosticism, even if we might not agree that a particular text or person should be considered gnostic. Within the surviving sources it is certainly true that there are instances in which women are given pride of place, favored, or otherwise shown to be anything but lesser than their male counter-parts. That said, a good deal of literature on the subject has exploited a combination of the dichotomous nature of our sources (surviving descriptions and quotations in polemical writings by heresy hunters vs. Gnostic texts themselves) as well as the rather ubiquitous ambiguity in already arcane, cryptic texts. Not that this is unique to this particular issue- it’s a general problem for the study of Gnosticism in general. However, there are few topics that garnered as much treatment by notable feminist scholars (Karen King, Elisabeth Schüssler Fiorenza, Rosemary Radford Ruether, Elaine Pagels, RIane Eisler, etc.) as well as popular “treatments” (from Freke & Gandy to The Da Vinci Code) as the status of women in Gnostic circles compared to other early Christian traditions (which are frequently portrayed as singular, and in fact in popular portrayals we find a dichotomous early Christianity).


One of the things that the amazing Nag Hammadi finds provided us with was a way to check the veracity of the polemical writings of Irenaeus, Tertullian, etc. It turns out that they were pretty faithful to what we find in the now much increased number of Gnostic texts. It becomes, then, less easy to simply dismiss as biased lies what e.g., Irenaeus says of a certain Marcos:

“this Gnostic prophet has a predilection for seducing wealthy, well-bred women by words. First, he states to his female audience that he wishes to share his Charis with them. The Charis is a seed of light, which needs containment in the female recipient's body. So, the woman must receive the bridegroom, whose conduit is Marcos himself. He says, "Receive from me a spouse and become receptive of him, while thou art received by him. Behold Charis has descended upon thee; open thy mouth and prophesy.” (Adv. Haer. 1.13.3).


After the women prophesy, Marcos has sex with them. He also used male disciples to recruit more women for the same purposes. Such descriptions (true or false) are the kind of information that we can’t usually get from Gnostic texts. Then there is the fact that usually the passages cited most often in support of a generally “proto-feminism” amongst Gnostics refer to one woman: Mary. I don’t find Shoemaker’s argument that this was a fictional “amalgam” of various Marys (Jesus’ mother, Mary of Magdala, Mary of Nazareth, and none of the above) all that strong. However, he takes to an extreme what is a far more supportable point: Mary’s identity in many a so-called Gnostic text is as an anti-Peter more than anything else.


Then there is Sophia, as presented in those texts which provide us with something like a “Gnostic” cosmology. On the one hand, her name itself means wisdom, she it is who play, if not the rose, than a role as savior, and so on. On the other hand, she wrecked the cosmos. Her offspring is usually the one most descriptions equate (if they do) to Satan or some equivalent. However, he and the flawed world he created were both due to Sophia’s disobedience due to pride similar to the (still developing) mythos of Satan as fallen from grace due to similar actions. She is not the ultimate source for spiritual enlightenment and freedom from world that should not have been, but rather responsible for the separation of all humans from the perfection that encapsulated all before she “fell from wisdom into folly” (sorry, couldn’t resist the play on her words with the chance to quote Tolkien).


I could go on forever about this, but I’ve said enough. I think that popular conceptions of the status of women in gnostic circles was first over-estimated by notable feminist scholars and then turned into fantasy in more popular authors (as well as into a novel, but that’s another matter). That said, I don’t think we can simply write off any and all seemingly pro-female references as designed only to undermine competitors nor all male-female gendered passages as hierarchal the way we clearly see in Thomas and some other places, but rather that many texts promote a sort of androgyny or sexlessness. And of course there was no singular doctrine we can call “Gnostic”. Basically, I think too much effort has been expended on demonstrating pro-feminine/proto-feminist views among gnostics and too little on misogyny/sexism within at least some gnostic circles, while the reverse is true within canonical Christian texts and so-called “orthodox” Christian authors.
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
...


To quote Pagel’s The Gnostic Gospels on this logion, “Strange as it sounds, this simply states what religious rhetoric assumes: that the men form the legitimate body of the community, while women are allowed to participate only when they assimilate themselves to men.”

...

I really enjoy Professor Pagel's books.

Her - ADAM, EVE, AND THE SERPENT - is very interesting.


*
 
Top