• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Gospel of Thomas verse 29

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
(22) Jesus saw some infants at the breast. He said to his disciples: These little ones at the breast are like those who enter into the kingdom. They said to him: If we then be children, shall we enter the kingdom? Jesus said to them: When you make the two one, and when you make the inside as the outside, and the outside as the inside, and the upper side as the lower; and when you make the male and the female into a single one, that the male be not male and the female (not) female; when you make eyes in the place of an eye, and a hand in place of a hand, and a foot in place of a foot, an image in place of an image, then shall you enter [the kingdom].

"Masculine and feminine, male and female, man and women are not always self-evident and parallel categories in ancient discourses. That is, categories are certainly fixed, and further are arranged in a hierarchical dualism whereby masculine/male/man are in ascendancy over "opposites"...It is important to stress that there is a clear differentiation in gnostic texts between a notion of "oneness," where sexual or gender identity is erased, and a notion of "androgyne," where genders are blended. In these texts, androgyny is seen as monstrous and problematic, not as a state to be embraced.
One has, in the case of the Gospel of Thomas, to account further for the apparent contradiction between saying 22 and saying 114: in the first, it appears as though male and female are to be completely undercut, while in saying 114, maleness is embraced as a higher and desirable quality. Here, the work of the first-century Egyptian Jewish philosopher, Philo Judaeus, whose attempts to reconcile Platonism with Judaism, are remarkable studies in ingenuity, can perhaps lend some assistance. For Philo, the categories of male and female are not balanced, but rather represent superior and inferior states; the movement from femaleness to maleness is understood to be a progressive movement to a higher state of virtue, and is paralleled by a movement toward oneness..."
Catelli, Elizabeth A. (1991). "I Will Make Mary Male": Pieties of the Body and Gender Transformation of Christian Women in Late Antiquity".
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
They are obviously talking symbolically, jesus isnt giving his mom a sex change.
Who said it's his mom? Not only is there another Mary, but arguably neither one is the Mary of gnostic texts who is rather an amalgamation of figures.

Jesus is essentially telling peter hes removing their curse from adam and eve, adam have the spirit breath. Kinda superstitious on peters part.
See my last post.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
So jesus got rid of the notion by saying the women simply need to follow him.
Jesus didn't get rid of the notion. It's there in the 2nd century gnostic text of Thomas, as well as elsewhere in gnostic texts and other Christian material.
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
Jesus didn't get rid of the notion. It's there in the 2nd century gnostic text of Thomas, as well as elsewhere in gnostic texts and other Christian material.

There was some gender bias even in the nt but jesus was one who sought to get passed it despite common opposing views. He opposed peters claim that women were inferior and said any follower is on equal ground. That is pretty significant even goes for the argument that women could hold a priesthood.
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
Ok....you quote Thomas....
I was aiming to get to the relationship of spirit and flesh.

The quote at hand suggests God before substance?
and then Man as a means to form spirit...using the flesh to insure the unique perspective?

That seems to be the intention.
Would you agree?

I do think the verse speaks of the miracle of creation and especially the wonder of life for spirit begat flesh and flesh begat life.
 

crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic Bully ☿
Premium Member
It also says this -

(22) Jesus saw some infants at the breast. He said to his disciples: These little ones at the breast are like those who enter into the kingdom. They said to him: If we then be children, shall we enter the kingdom? Jesus said to them: When you make the two one, and when you make the inside as the outside, and the outside as the inside, and the upper side as the lower; and when you make the male and the female into a single one, that the male be not male and the female (not) female; when you make eyes in the place of an eye, and a hand in place of a hand, and a foot in place of a foot, an image in place of an image, then shall you enter [the kingdom].

Perhaps he was referring to the verse above - and should have added - (or perhaps he did and they purposely left it out? :D) --


“AND I myself shall lead YOU in order to make YOU FEMALE, so that YOU too may become a living spirit resembling the FEMALES. For every MAN who will make HIMSELF FEMALE will enter the kingdom of heaven."


*

"Masculine and feminine, male and female, man and women are not always self-evident and parallel categories in ancient discourses. That is, categories are certainly fixed, and further are arranged in a hierarchical dualism whereby masculine/male/man are in ascendancy over "opposites"...It is important to stress that there is a clear differentiation in gnostic texts between a notion of "oneness," where sexual or gender identity is erased, and a notion of "androgyne," where genders are blended. In these texts, androgyny is seen as monstrous and problematic, not as a state to be embraced.
One has, in the case of the Gospel of Thomas, to account further for the apparent contradiction between saying 22 and saying 114: in the first, it appears as though male and female are to be completely undercut, while in saying 114, maleness is embraced as a higher and desirable quality. Here, the work of the first-century Egyptian Jewish philosopher, Philo Judaeus, whose attempts to reconcile Platonism with Judaism, are remarkable studies in ingenuity, can perhaps lend some assistance. For Philo, the categories of male and female are not balanced, but rather represent superior and inferior states; the movement from femaleness to maleness is understood to be a progressive movement to a higher state of virtue, and is paralleled by a movement toward oneness..."
Catelli, Elizabeth A. (1991). "I Will Make Mary Male": Pieties of the Body and Gender Transformation of Christian Women in Late Antiquity".

Your essay seems to address both verse 22 (which Ingledsva quoted above,) and verse 114 about Mary becoming male. Verse 22 is more about transcending your own masculinity/femininity via renunciation (like the Vestial Virgins mentioned in your linked essay.) This short Buddhist sutta describes the concept succinctly:
Saññoga Sutta: Bondage

While verse 22 focuses on overcoming psychological gender bondage on a personal level, verse 114 is obviously more about overcoming gender-related hierarchical bondage on a societal level.

Your essay references an article regarding Mahayana suttas of "women becoming men" in that they take on traditionally male gendered roles, such as governorship, by using the authority of the Buddhist suttas against the Confucians who wanted to maintain their hierarchical cultural indoctrination, and derided them for being "mere women." (I bring up the Buddhist suttas because the principles are more straightforwardly explained than the "symbolic" western texts in this regard.)
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Trying to understand Wisdom teachings academically is like listening to music with a screwdriver.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
He opposed peters claim that women were inferior and said any follower is on equal ground.
He didn't. The line is a reference to (very Gnostic) conceptions of spiritual transformation. Jesus doesn't say that women aren't inferior. He affirms they are. A common gnostic theme, however, is that humans are all inferior, even grotesque. Men are bad, just not as bad as women. Both have to become something more. Women just have farther to go because they are lower down even then men.
It's blatant sexism no matter how you slice it and was representative of a common view at the time.
 

Ingledsva

HEATHEN ALASKAN
He didn't. The line is a reference to (very Gnostic) conceptions of spiritual transformation. Jesus doesn't say that women aren't inferior. He affirms they are. A common gnostic theme, however, is that humans are all inferior, even grotesque. Men are bad, just not as bad as women. Both have to become something more. Women just have farther to go because they are lower down even then men.
It's blatant sexism no matter how you slice it and was representative of a common view at the time.


Yes it is blatant sexism - however - we need to remember these are not accepted texts - and we don't know that Jesus said any of this - or actually lived for that matter. :)


*
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Yes it is blatant sexism - however - we need to remember these are not accepted texts - and we don't know that Jesus said any of this - or actually lived for that matter. :)
It's true that we don't know if Jesus said this. I doubt he did. That he lived is not really in doubt at all. Trying to determine what he said vs. what people believed he said is largely impossible.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
It's true that we don't know if Jesus said this. I doubt he did. That he lived is not really in doubt at all. Trying to determine what he said vs. what people believed he said is largely impossible.

So let's use what is at hand and say if it's really useful or not.
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
He didn't. The line is a reference to (very Gnostic) conceptions of spiritual transformation. Jesus doesn't say that women aren't inferior. He affirms they are. A common gnostic theme, however, is that humans are all inferior, even grotesque. Men are bad, just not as bad as women. Both have to become something more. Women just have farther to go because they are lower down even then men.
It's blatant sexism no matter how you slice it and was representative of a common view at the time.

Yes peter was sexist and jesus said he wil give mary a sex change to solve it making them as equals. You realize they arent talking about the sex of the person. And one person their is showing tolerance for transgendered.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Yes peter was sexist and jesus said he wil give mary a sex change to solve it making them as equals.
There was no such thing as a sex change. Gender was believed to quite thoroughly and fundamentally shape one's person, self, mind, soul, spirit, etc. Women and men were thought of almost as separate species. By stating that he would make Mary male, the Jesus of Thomas was basically saying he would rebuild her from the ground up- soul, spirit, and mind.

You realize they arent talking about the sex of the person.
They are. But gender didn't stop at biological equipment. It was intricately tied to it (just look at the treatment of eunuchs in the literature), but it didn't end there. Females souls/spirits/minds were considered inferior and more tainted than males. For a male to achieve spiritual perfection, he had to become more than a male. For a women, she would have to first become male. She had an extra step as she was more base, corrupt, tainted, etc. Again, an extremely oppressive and sexist culture here.

And one person their is showing tolerance for transgendered.
That term had no meaning and corresponds to nothing which had meaning then.
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
There was no such thing as a sex change. Gender was believed to quite thoroughly and fundamentally shape one's person, self, mind, soul, spirit, etc. Women and men were thought of almost as separate species. By stating that he would make Mary male, the Jesus of Thomas was basically saying he would rebuild her from the ground up- soul, spirit, and mind.


They are. But gender didn't stop at biological equipment. It was intricately tied to it (just look at the treatment of eunuchs in the literature), but it didn't end there. Females souls/spirits/minds were considered inferior and more tainted than males. For a male to achieve spiritual perfection, he had to become more than a male. For a women, she would have to first become male. She had an extra step as she was more base, corrupt, tainted, etc. Again, an extremely oppressive and sexist culture here.


That term had no meaning and corresponds to nothing which had meaning then.
I never doubted they have to there biases but jesus is speaking at a higher level compared to his peers. Peters issue was of a physical nature and jesus answered in a spiritual nature which would be like me saying "dont worry we are all one gender in heaven" which is very much unprovable. Jesus might as well said fairies will make it ok, lol.
 

mystic64

nolonger active
It also says this -

(22) Jesus saw some infants at the breast. He said to his disciples: These little ones at the breast are like those who enter into the kingdom. They said to him: If we then be children, shall we enter the kingdom? Jesus said to them: When you make the two one, and when you make the inside as the outside, and the outside as the inside, and the upper side as the lower; and when you make the male and the female into a single one, that the male be not male and the female (not) female; when you make eyes in the place of an eye, and a hand in place of a hand, and a foot in place of a foot, an image in place of an image, then shall you enter [the kingdom].

Perhaps he was referring to the verse above - and should have added - (or perhaps he did and they purposely left it out? :D) --


“AND I myself shall lead YOU in order to make YOU FEMALE, so that YOU too may become a living spirit resembling the FEMALES. For every MAN who will make HIMSELF FEMALE will enter the kingdom of heaven."


*

Awesome post :) ! And thank you for the web address.
 

crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic Bully ☿
Premium Member
Ok....you quote Thomas....
I was aiming to get to the relationship of spirit and flesh.
I'm thinking that this discussion about sexism as it relates to the Gospel of Thomas is quite enlightening regarding the relationship of spirit and flesh. ;)
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
I'm thinking that this discussion about sexism as it relates to the Gospel of Thomas is quite enlightening regarding the relationship of spirit and flesh. ;)

I would be more concerned that you are not able to leave your body.
The spirit seems chained to the chemistry somehow.

What if you fail to 'let go'?
You could end up following your flesh into the box and into the grave.
Eternal darkness is physically real.

I see no guarantee that the bond is broken when the chemistry fails.

I did not put 'me' into this parcel of flesh.
It may well be up to heaven whether or not I will be set free.
 
Top