In Thomas, Jesus doesn't do this.
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Gospel of Thomas verse 29
- Thread starter crossfire
- Start date
It's not so sexist if you acknowledge the symbolism. The one not worthy of life is the one who has not "discovered a carcass."
psychoslice
Veteran Member
I have to disagree, but then we both will see the words on our level, so really there is no argument.
Thomas is filled with symbolism, as are multiple so-called "gnostic" texts. But there use words and/or constructions to alert the reader to these. Here, we have no such indications. We have no typical symbolism (typical even within Thomas). What we do have is a latent sexism within virtually all texts from this period, but especially within certain "gnostic" texts which displayed a hatred for the body and bodily functions and which especially blamed females. Thomas seems to be just an early version of the rampant sexist ideology that consumed many a gnostic focus.
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There always is. And there never is.
psychoslice
Veteran Member
Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
Here is a free Interlinear Coptic/English Gospel of Thomas PDF to download.
http://gospel-thomas.net/gtbypage_112702.pdf
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Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
It also says this -
(22) Jesus saw some infants at the breast. He said to his disciples: These little ones at the breast are like those who enter into the kingdom. They said to him: If we then be children, shall we enter the kingdom? Jesus said to them: When you make the two one, and when you make the inside as the outside, and the outside as the inside, and the upper side as the lower; and when you make the male and the female into a single one, that the male be not male and the female (not) female; when you make eyes in the place of an eye, and a hand in place of a hand, and a foot in place of a foot, an image in place of an image, then shall you enter [the kingdom].
Perhaps he was referring to the verse above - and should have added - (or perhaps he did and they purposely left it out?
) --“AND I myself shall lead YOU in order to make YOU FEMALE, so that YOU too may become a living spirit resembling the FEMALES. For every MAN who will make HIMSELF FEMALE will enter the kingdom of heaven."
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Terrywoodenpic
Oldest Heretic
It is even more pointless to read gnostic texts in a literal way, than it is for the Bible.
The texts can rarely be understood in "plain English"
Very few people today have been trained in the necessary disciplines to understand them.
They are impossible for those who are untrained, to interpret correctly.
I for one have given up.......... Opinion is no where near an adequate substitute.
The texts can rarely be understood in "plain English"
Very few people today have been trained in the necessary disciplines to understand them.
They are impossible for those who are untrained, to interpret correctly.
I for one have given up.......... Opinion is no where near an adequate substitute.
psychoslice
Veteran Member
Jesus is saying that we are in truth neither male or female, we are not truly the mind body organism, we are pure Essence, or Christ Consciousness, whatever you want to call it.
psychoslice
Veteran Member
Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
I'm afraid I'm going to have very much disagree with you here. What others have pointed out about the this saying is true. Mary holds a high position in this so-called Gnostic text. Which, by the way Thomas is not Gnositic in teaching at all. It's in the Wisdom school camp. If you try to equate it with actual Gnostic teaching, it doesn't jibe. Thomas is not Gnostic to begin with. So to interpret this verse as sexist because the Gnostics were, doesn't work.
But aside from an academic argument, which I really have no desire to get embroiled within, I believe what the OP passage refers to is exactly what was offered by someone on the first page, which no one responded to for some reason. It's Jivanmukta , "firmly assimilated knowledge of the Self- and is liberated while living in a human body, free from rebirth." It's mystical awakening in the flesh.
These two posts:
Counter-intuitive method, like so many things are.
Whiterain
Get me off of this planet
I've needed to brush up on the Gospels of Thomas. I knew I would enjoy it. Christ and Thomas are regular cynics..
Jesus said, "Where there are three gods, they are gods.
Where there are two or one, I am with him."
Jesus said, "No prophet is accepted in his own village; no
physician heals those who know him."
Pearls of visdom.
I need to read the New Testament
Jesus said, "Where there are three gods, they are gods.
Where there are two or one, I am with him."
Jesus said, "No prophet is accepted in his own village; no
physician heals those who know him."
Pearls of visdom.
I need to read the New Testament
Yes, and your post too said the same thing. I saw that, but failed to mention you said this too. You know, actually this reminds me of a thread I started awhile back I think relates to this: http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/comparative-religion/154505-spiritual-journey.html
Whiterain
Get me off of this planet
His disciples said to Him, "Is circumcision beneficial or
not?"
He said to them, "If it were beneficial, their father would
beget them already circumcised from their mother. Rather, the
true circumcision in spirit has become completely profitable."
That's a solid Jewish joke there. 2000 years old.
That's what Asa Thor said to me in a dream.. You have the power of a ***** and to go shuck dicks for a living.
not?"
He said to them, "If it were beneficial, their father would
beget them already circumcised from their mother. Rather, the
true circumcision in spirit has become completely profitable."
That's a solid Jewish joke there. 2000 years old.
That's what Asa Thor said to me in a dream.. You have the power of a ***** and to go shuck dicks for a living.
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Here's the OP of the thread you are referring to:
Are we humans on a spiritual journey, or are we Spirit on a human journey? We are used to thinking of ourselves as humans in pursuit of knowing, exploring, or attaining a spiritual state or condition of being in our human experience. We pray, meditate, go on retreat, read inspiring literature, sacred texts, etc., in pursuit of opening ourselves to the spiritual. But what mystics have always come to realize is that we are fully already spiritual as our basic nature. When we open to this state, we realize it as the condition of our very being. It is nothing you attain, win as a prize, achieve, accomplish, or whatever. It can be described as opening a window, and realizing there never was never any window there at all to open.
So if our true condition is Spirit, or Consciousness if you prefer, then isn't the experience of being human really a journey of spirit, exploring the condition of being human? As we seek to unite with spirit, that internal effort we make, is the experience of our humanness in a sort of exercise ironically searching for who we have been all along. It's almost a sort of game, spirit exploring itself as a human in search of its own nose, looking and looking, pleading, denying, sacrificing, only to have the big "ah hah!" moment of surprise for spirit to see itself looking in the mirror and say, "Gotcha!"
But what I see as important to this is that of living life in freedom. What is typical in the human seeking for spirit, is to shelve our humanity, to assume it is something to be overcome. But isn't the exploration of our humanness, exactly the journey of spirit? I see both. I see us as humans seeking to come home to knowing ourselves as spirit, and I see spirit at play within us, seeking to know who we are as unique individuals, free, and exploring the nature of who we are as human, to know life through us! It offers two perspectives to the spiritual journey; as humans seeking the spiritual, and as spirit seeking the human experience of life. To shift perspective like this, its seems can enrich our journey, as human, as it offers freedom and fulfillment in the pursuit of knowing the spiritual in our humanness.
Regarding our humanity being overcome:
Gospel of Thomas verse 7
(7) Jesus said, "Blessed is the lion which becomes man when consumed by man; and cursed is the man whom the lion consumes, and the lion becomes man."
Either way, the "lion becomes human." It is blessed when it retains its humanity, and it is cursed when it loses it.
Gnostic is an umbrella term used to describe even completely contradicting schools of thought. Hence Rethinking Gnosticism: An Argument for Dismantling a Dubious Category. Thomas is generally called gnostic.
How would you categorize the various diverse schools that generally fall under the label gnostic in a consistent way such that the label makes sense?
Thomas is a "sayings gospel". There are certainly themes, but it is not a very unified text. Chances are that, like Q, diverse sayings were collected and rather haphazardly put together. Not completely haphazardly, but enough that we should expect and do find sayings that reflect very different purposes, ideas, and themes.
They are obviously talking symbolically, jesus isnt giving his mom a sex change. Jesus is essentially telling peter hes removing their curse from adam and eve, adam have the spirit breath. Kinda superstitious on peters part.