Got curious about something... (regards abortion and father`s duties)

[MysticSang'ha]

Nice try.
The fact of the matter is that I am currently on both sides of this particular fence.
I am currently paying child support and I am supposed to be receiving child support.

You keep going on about it not being fair.
I have asked you what you base it on.

you have thus far flat out refused to explain how it is unfair.

you seem to be so concerned with the paying of child support that you seem to be completely ignoring the fact that the other party is actually raising the child.

Instead, you keep claiming that because the custodial party COULD give up their responsibility that the non-custodial parent SHOULD be released from their responsibility.

And you are claiming to be arguing over the "fairness" of it all?

It's the kind of rhetoric displayed by deadbeat parents, men and women, who are obligated to pay child support. What I'm seeing in the arguments about men's rights to be free from paying child support is that there should be no such thing as deadbeat dads, and that men relinquishing their obligation to child support is exactly the same as a woman's bodily right to terminate a pregnancy.

"So, if she's not a murderer when she terminates a pregnancy, then I shouldn't be a deadbeat dad if I refuse to pay child support for a child *I* didn't want. If she can't be demonized for killing a child, then I shouldn't be demonized for running away from that child....see?"

The mental gymnastics to justify a comparison is truly remarkable, isn't it?

 

[Willamena]

Sure, if she abandons him in a dumpster, but she can make legal procedures to put the baby for adoption, can she not?

Adoption isn't an abandonment of responsibility in any sense of the phrase. It's a legal transfer of responsibility to someone else.

 

[Me Myself]

It's the kind of rhetoric displayed by deadbeat parents, men and women, who are obligated to pay child support. What I'm seeing in the arguments about men's rights to be free from paying child support is that there should be no such thing as deadbeat dads, and that men relinquishing their obligation to child support is exactly the same as a woman's bodily right to terminate a pregnancy.

"So, if she's not a murderer when she terminates a pregnancy, then I shouldn't be a deadbeat dad if I refuse to pay child support for a child *I* didn't want. If she can't be demonized for killing a child, then I shouldn't be demonized for running away from that child....see?"

The mental gymnastics to justify a comparison is truly remarkable, isn't it?

You are so right, I totally did this because I love to demonize women. I like to demonize women so much.

Spank me now

 

[NIX]

I am not fine with men never having to grow a baby in their body and deliver it.





If a man doesn't want to make a woman get pregnant all he has to do is get a vasectomy or not have sex at all.
If a woman doesn't want to go through pregnancy all she has to do is get a tubal ligation or not have sex at all.

or have an abortion.

 

[Alceste]

I am not fine with men never having to grow a baby in their body and deliver it.





If a man doesn't want to make a woman get pregnant all he has to do is get a vasectomy or not have sex at all.
If a woman doesn't want to go through pregnancy all she has to do is get a tubal ligation or not have sex at all.

It works both ways.

You still haven't explained why any birth control options at all should be taken off the table.

 

[Alceste]

I disagree with your reasoning. I also fail to see what is so complicated about it.

It is not a decision exclusively about the woman's body. It also relates to a different individual human being.

You're not an "individual" until you're born. An embryo, if left to its own devices, does not survive.

 

[Me Myself]

You're not an "individual" until you're born. An embryo, if left to its own devices, does not survive.

A baby wouldnt survive either.

 

[Alceste]

So then it is your argument that the man should not have to take responsibility because the woman can get an abortion?

Yes, that is his point, believe it or not. It's a roundabout way of trying to argue that abortion is wrong.

 

[Alceste]

"If an unplanned pregnancy occurs, that is a result of your personal choices. Therefore, you should be woman enough to accept the consequence."

Just like when a man makes his choice the moment he has sex with a woman, a woman also makes her choice the moment she has sex with a man.

I have already explained to you several times that a woman still has a few choices left in her arsenal after having sex. Of course you know this is true. You need to explain WHY any of her choices should be eliminated.

 

[waitasec]

Its a question, I am asking you.

If you are not interested on debating morality and "fairness", having an argument about the proper laws of anything with you... well I dont even know why you would like to have such a conversation o.o

i see where you are going with this.

however with diseases that you are speaking of there is NO cure.

if one were to compare pregnancy to disease, like what you seem to be doing, pregnancy has a cure

 

[Koldo]

I have already explained to you several times that a woman still has a few choices left in her arsenal after having sex. Of course you know this is true. You need to explain WHY any of her choices should be eliminated.

Why should she have a few choices left after having sex?
A man made his choice at the moment he had sex. Likewise, a woman must make her choice at the moment she has sex.

 

[Koldo]

You're not an "individual" until you're born.

You are. You even have a different DNA.

An embryo, if left to its own devices, does not survive.

A baby left to its own devices doesn't survive as well.

 

[Koldo]

Until such time as it is the fathers body being affected by the pregnancy, then the father should have no more say in the matter than the woman whose body is effected allows them.

Good. This is actually compatible with your argument.

is your argument that the woman should not have abortion as an option because the father does not?

No. That's the logical conclusion of your argument against the OP.

You have lost me.

The argument:

"If an unplanned pregnancy occurs, that is a result of your personal choices. Therefore, you should be man enough to accept the consequence."

It entails that at the moment a man has sex with a woman he makes a choice. And he has to bear the responsibility of this choice by supporting the child.

However, this argument can also be used against abortion.
If the choice made by the man ( which is to have sex with a woman ) is enough to make him responsible for the child then the same must apply to a woman ( that makes the choice to have sex with a man ). This woman must be responsible for this child, and support him/her.

 

[Willamena]

The argument:

"If an unplanned pregnancy occurs, that is a result of your personal choices. Therefore, you should be man enough to accept the consequence."

It entails that at the moment a man has sex with a woman he makes a choice. And he has bear the responsibility of this choice by supporting the child.

However, this argument can also be used against abortion.
If the choice made by the man ( which is to have sex with a woman ) is enough to make him responsible for the child then the same must apply to a woman ( that makes the choice to have sex with a man ). This woman must be responsible for this child, and support him/her.

The woman accepts all the same consequences that the man does, though. She is legally obligated to provide for the child. If the father is given to raise it, she has to provide child support.

Whether or not she aborts is a separate issue, one in which she has one more responsibility than the father. She has a responsibility to herself and her own health.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Why should she have a few choices left after having sex?
A man made his choice at the moment he had sex. Likewise, a woman must make her choice at the moment she has sex.

The results are in her body. This is why she has a few choices after having sex.

Y'all, it's not that hard to understand.

 

[Koldo]

The woman accepts all the same consequences that the man does, though. She is legally obligated to provide for the child. If the father is given to raise it, she has to provide child support.

Whether or not she aborts is a separate issue, one in which she has one more responsibility than the father. She has a responsibility to herself and her own health.

It is not a separate issue. As i said: "This woman must be responsible for this child, and support him/her."

How can you support a child by causing its demise?
( Let's not get into rare exceptions. )

 

[Koldo]

The results are in her body. This is why she has a few choices after having sex.

Y'all, it's not that hard to understand.

So what if the results are in her body?
The moment she had sex she was aware that this would ( could ) happen.
She accepted this risk, just like the man accepted his.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

You are. You even have a different DNA.



A baby left to its own devices doesn't survive as well.

Does this follow, then, that the clump of cells that may or may not have been implanted in the uterine wall of a host being is more important than a living, breathing, sapient, sentient human female?

It's very easy to champion the rights of an embryo when a woman isn't trusted to decide what she can do with what happens with her own body.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

So what if the results are in her body?
The moment she had sex she was aware that this would ( could ) happen.
She accepted this risk, just like the man accepted his.

The difference is in the amount of importance you give to the fetus compared to the importance you give to the woman gestating that fetus.

 

[Willamena]

It is not a separate issue. As i said: "This woman must be responsible for this child, and support him/her."

How can you support a child by causing its demise?
( Let's not get into rare exceptions. )

The woman is responsible for the chlid she has, and does support him/her. So it is a separate issue.

You support your own well-being by abortion. That's an enormous, but separate, responsibility.