Got curious about something... (regards abortion and father`s duties)

[Koldo]

Does this follow, then, that the clump of cells that may or may not have been implanted in the uterine wall of a host being is more important than a living, breathing, sapient, sentient human female?

When did i mention 'importance'?

It's very easy to champion the rights of an embryo when a woman isn't trusted to decide what she can do with what happens with her own body.

I agree.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

When did i mention 'importance'?

I asked for clarification on your position concerning you responding with "so what?"

 

[Alceste]

We are losing context here...

Our conversation began when i said:

"Exactly. You already have pills, implants, patches, cervical caps and condoms.
If an unplanned pregnancy occurs, that is a result of your personal choices. Therefore, you should be woman enough to accept the consequence."

The exact same argument can be used against abortion. See?"

But it ISN'T an argument "against" ANY reproductive strategy. It's an argument that both parties can use a variety of birth control strategies, but after a pregnancy occurs, the man's are all gone but the woman had one left. If there was something men could still do to terminate unplanned pregnancies after the fact, it would be selling like hotcakes. But there isn't.

 

[McBell]

No. That's the logical conclusion of your argument against the OP.

No, it isn't.
The fact of the matter is that since it is the womans body, the woman gets to decide.
You seem to be trying to say that the woman should not be able to choose abortion simply because the man has no say.

Your attempts at convincing people that abortion is a complete freement of responsibility is fleeting at best.

You seem to be for taking the rights of a woman and ditching them for the "rights" of a fetus.

The argument:

"If an unplanned pregnancy occurs, that is a result of your personal choices. Therefore, you should be man enough to accept the consequence."

It entails that at the moment a man has sex with a woman he makes a choice. And he has to bear the responsibility of this choice by supporting the child.

However, this argument can also be used against abortion.
If the choice made by the man ( which is to have sex with a woman ) is enough to make him responsible for the child then the same must apply to a woman ( that makes the choice to have sex with a man ). This woman must be responsible for this child, and support him/her.

Only if you completely ignore the fact that the womans choices do not stop where the mans choices do.

 

[Koldo]

The difference is in the amount of importance you give to the fetus compared to the importance you give to the woman gestating that fetus.

Let me explain: I have been talking about the consequences that a given line of argument that has been used at least a few times in this topic lead us to.

My point is to show how and why this argument is a double edged sword as it actually goes against abortion.

To simplify, on several cases i posted on this topic as if i supported this argument to show why it is lacking. But i don't support it.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Let me explain: I have been talking about the consequences that a given line of argument that has been used at least a few times in this topic lead us to.

My point is to show how and why this argument is a double edged sword as it actually goes against abortion.

To simplify, on several cases i posted on this topic as if i supported this argument to show why it is lacking. But i don't support it.

Devil's Advocate then?

 

[Koldo]

But it ISN'T an argument "against" ANY reproductive strategy. It's an argument that both parties can use a variety of birth control strategies, but after a pregnancy occurs, the man's are all gone but the woman had one left. If there was something men could still do to terminate unplanned pregnancies after the fact, it would be selling like hotcakes. But there isn't.

It isn't an argument against reproductive strategies.
It is an argument based solely on choice.
It is an argument that holds a person responsible for the child based on the choice it made when he/she had sex.

If you apply it to men, you must apply it to women.

 

[Alceste]

A baby wouldnt survive either.

Of course it would. Anybody can care for a baby once its born. In the really stages of pregnancy, when abortion is an option, it doesn't even have a mouth to stick food into.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

It isn't an argument against reproductive strategies.
It is an argument based solely on choice.
It is an argument that holds a person responsible for the child based on the choice it made when he/she had sex.

If you apply it to men, you must apply it to women.

It is equally applicable after the birth.

Before birth, it is not equally applicable. The fetus inside the woman's body is completely her responsibility as well as her own bodily health and well being is completely her responsibility.

When a pregnant woman goes to the doctor, the fetus' heartbeat is not the only one that is checked. HER vital signs are checked, too.

Are the man's vitals checked every time they go to the OB-GYN?

 

[waitasec]

It isn't an argument against reproductive strategies.
It is an argument based solely on choice.
It is an argument that holds a person responsible for the child based on the choice it made when he/she had sex.

If you apply it to men, you must apply it to women.

define "child"

 

[Alceste]

Why should she have a few choices left after having sex?
A man made his choice at the moment he had sex. Likewise, a woman must make her choice at the moment she has sex.

Why should the sky be blue? Why should our nostrils be so close together? Why should the sea be salty? Abortion IS an option, whether it's legal or not, and for the rest of time, just as from the beginning of time, some proportion of women will choose it. You are arguing that a man should have full, legal use of all the birth control options that exist for him, but the woman should have one option made more difficult and unsafe to use. Why? Justify this please. Should we make condoms illegal while we're at it, so that men have to buy home made condoms on the black market?

 

[Me Myself]

define "child"

child Pronunciation: /CHīld/
Syllabification:OnOff
Translate child into French | into German | into Italian | into Spanish
Definition of child
noun (plural children /ˈCHildrən/)
a young human being below the age of puberty or below the legal age of majority.
a son or daughter of any age.

 

[Koldo]

No, it isn't.
The fact of the matter is that since it is the womans body, the woman gets to decide.
You seem to be trying to say that the woman should not be able to choose abortion simply because the man has no say.

Only if you completely ignore the fact that the womans choices do not stop where the mans choices do.

I have repeated this several times already: The fetus is not the woman's body.
What i am saying is that if you hold the man responsible for the child ( which means he has to financially support him/her ) because he had sex with a woman, then you must hold the woman equally responsible. She had the very same choice. And therefore, if she had this choice, she doesn't need to ever make an abortion.

They both agreed to be held responsible at the moment they made that choice. And what you propose is that for some arbitrary reason the woman must not be held to the same standard. She is allowed to make another choice even though the first choice is more than sufficient to make the man responsible for the child.

Your attempts at convincing people that abortion is a complete freement of responsibility is fleeting at best.

What?

You seem to be for taking the rights of a woman and ditching them for the "rights" of a fetus.

This certainly what your argument used against the OP entails.

 

[waitasec]

child Pronunciation: /CHīld/
Syllabification:OnOff
Translate child into French | into German | into Italian | into Spanish
Definition of child
noun (plural children /ˈCHildrən/)
a young human being below the age of puberty or below the legal age of majority.
a son or daughter of any age.

thanks koldo,
so YOU are not talking about an embryo

 

[Koldo]

Of course it would. Anybody can care for a baby once its born. In the really stages of pregnancy, when abortion is an option, it doesn't even have a mouth to stick food into.

I didn't know 'anybody' is part of the baby's own devices.

 

[Willamena]

I have repeated this several times already: The fetus is not the woman's body.
What i am saying is that if you hold the man responsible for the child ( which means he has to financially support him/her ) because he had sex with a woman, then you must hold the woman equally responsible. She had the very same choice. And therefore, if she had this choice, she doesn't need to ever make an abortion.

They both agreed to be held responsible at the moment they made that choice. And what you propose is that for some arbitrary reason the woman must not be held to the same standard. She is allowed to make another choice even though the first choice is more than sufficient to make the man responsible for the child.

The woman is equally responsible. Society holds her to it.

She also has a responsibility to her own health and well-being--we all do. It's the reason suicide attempts are generally illegal, and assisted suicide in some places.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Devil's Advocate then?

*ahem*

 

[Me Myself]

thanks koldo,
so YOU are not talking about an embryo

Koldo?

How an embryo would not hold to that description?

 

[Koldo]

It is equally applicable after the birth.

Before birth, it is not equally applicable. The fetus inside the woman's body is completely her responsibility as well as her own bodily health and well being is completely her responsibility.

When a pregnant woman goes to the doctor, the fetus' heartbeat is not the only one that is checked. HER vital signs are checked, too.

Are the man's vitals checked every time they go to the OB-GYN?

This doesn't matter to the point being made.
When a woman has sex with a man she is aware she is the one who gets pregnant.
She is aware that is her responsibility. She made her choice at the moment.

 

[Alceste]

It isn't an argument against reproductive strategies.
It is an argument based solely on choice.
It is an argument that holds a person responsible for the child based on the choice it made when he/she had sex.

If you apply it to men, you must apply it to women.

No, koldo, once again: your argument can not stand unless you are able to explain why ANY birth control option for EITHER responsible party should be made more difficult and dangerous to obtain. That the man has no more options after he knocks a woman up is just a fact. That the woman still has options is just a fact. How is that an argument for eliminating certain choices?

I know you're trying, but there's no logic in what you're saying.