Got curious about something... (regards abortion and father`s duties)

[MysticSang'ha]

If the choice she made during sex binds her, why would anyone consider her realm of choice to do something else about it even if the pregnancy happens in her body?

Even if....?

I take it what a woman decides to do with her body is considered unimportant or even reprehensible under certain circumstances?

Let me ask a question here....what is so wrong with a woman having complete autonomy?

 

[Me Myself]

It isn't a question of should or shouldn't. It's a biological fact. If a woman doesn't want to be pregnant, she can do something about it, even if men like yourself do everything in their power to make it more difficult and dangerous for her.

Sure, it is also a biological and physical fact I can go to my kitchen right now, take a knife and start butchering people. :sarcastic

 

[Koldo]

And it is still just as irrelevant a strawman as the first time you stated it...

What strawman?

Yet you have not in the least bit shown why the woman's choices should stop as soon as the mans choices are depleted.

Because she already made her choice.

:biglsaugh:
So carrying a fetus to term is "arbitrary"?

I agree, it is completely unfair that the the man is able to just run off and have absolutely nothing to do with the child other than paying child support while the mother has the "arbitrary" responsibility of raising the child.

Cause we all know just how much more responsibility there is in paying child support than there is in actually raising a child.

What are you talking about?
That quote was about choice during sex, and abortion.

You are claiming that abortion is some sort of complete freement of responsibility.
You have thus far failed to support your claim.

It is the freement of a specific responsibility.
Giving birth to a child.

No, my argument is that the man should be responsible for his actions/choices.

Furthermore, my argument is that merely jumping up and down screaming "it's not fair" is not a valid argument.
Especially if you flat out refuse to reveal your basis for comparison.

My argument is that it is the womans body, not the mans, so the woman gets to choose.

Likewise, unless you are applying a double standard, the woman should be responsible for her actions/choices.

And i have already explained why it isn't exclusively a matter of the 'woman's body'.

 

[Koldo]

He is not required to care for the fetus before birth. He can't. It's in her body. It's HER responsibility to eat the right foods, to refrain from alcohol and recreational drugs and some prescription drugs. It's HER responsibility to maintain a healthy body weight gain in order to support the growing fetus if she chooses to keep it.

The man has NOTHING to do with the fetus after conception, and therefore is not his responsibility. It's her realm and hers alone while in utero.

As Willamena explained too, she also has a responsibility to HERSELF and her own health. The fetus is using her body to grow. It isn't some independent life force happily growing all by itself....the woman's body is being used. Period. If a woman chooses to be a host for the fetus' gestation, that's her choice. But because it's her body that is being used to gestate a fetus.....and it takes an enormous toll on a woman's body to gestate a fetus.....it is entirely in her best interest to decide on whether or not she wants to take the enormous toll for 9 months.

I said this before: It does not matter.
She agreed to this the moment she had sex with a man.

 

[Me Myself]

Let me ask a question here....what is so wrong with a woman having complete autonomy?

Larceny, murder, torture, I dont know, what ever a human with complete autonomy would be able to do that would be wrong.

 

[Koldo]

well i disagree because an embryo =/= a child
using the term a child implies "wanted" that isn't always the case with an embryo

It doesn't imply ''wanted''. Ever.
There are many children that aren't wanted.

 

[waitasec]

Larceny, murder, torture, I dont know, what ever a human with complete autonomy would be able to do that would be wrong.

then this more of a controlling issue.

 

[Koldo]

That is correct.
However, her choices do not stop there.

Since it is the womans body the resulting pregnancy is reliant on, the woman gets a few more choices.

The second that it is the mans body the pregnancy is reliant on, then the man will get a few more choices.

Now I understand that there are some who want to whine and complain about how paying child support is so much more a bigger responsibility than actually raising a child...

Why doesn't her choices stop there?
Why is the man bound to the moment he had sex, but the woman not?
Why are you using a double standard?
If it binds the man, it must bind the woman.

 

[Me Myself]

well i disagree because an embryo =/= a child
using the term a child implies "wanted" that isn't always the case with an embryo

0.0... from where did you got that definition?

A child is a human being that has not reached puberty.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Sure, it is also a biological and physical fact I can go to my kitchen right now, take a knife and start butchering people. :sarcastic

A ridiculous and terrible analogy.

I wasn't joking when I pointed out how you are wishing to demonize women who choose to have an abortion. I'll explain how I see you position again:

"If a woman can get away with "murder" by killing an unborn child, then a man should be able to get away with being a deadbeat dad."

I see this as being your position, and it is patently baseless.

 

[Koldo]

Because her body is being utilized.

So what?

 

[Me Myself]

then this more of a controlling issue.

Of course. Outlawing convenience murder of the unborn.

 

[Alceste]

Is it okay to kill someone as long as the person wont suffer?

If it is a matter of development a baby is not fully developed either and a human baby has less inteligence than a lot of animals when just born so how can we say we base the difference on development or inteligence?

Value for the human life should not be reduced to a mere semantics game.

Is it truly okay to kill another human being, not even giving him the chance to live fully, on the argument that it will be painless?

It's OK not to save someone's life by donating blood, spinal fluid, organs, etc. In other words, you have no legal obligation to let another person use your body to sustain their own life without your consent.

Should we apply this same rule to pregnant women, or should we make a law compelling everyone to donate life saving fluids and organs on demand? Or should we have a double standard, where we all have the right to refuse to use our bodies to save lives unless we happen to be pregnant?

 

[McBell]

What strawman?

That the fetus is not a part of the womans body.
I never claimed it was.

Because she already made her choice.

Yeppers.
Now how does making one choice disqualify choices that have to be made as a result of the choice she made?

What are you talking about?
That quote was about choice during sex, and abortion.

I am talking about your use of the word "arbitrary" when describing raising a child.

Interesting how you think choosing to raise a child is such and "arbitrary" thing.

It is the freement of a specific responsibility.
Giving birth to a child.

She does not have the responsibility of giving birth unless she decides to not get an abortion.

Likewise, unless you are applying a double standard, the woman should be responsible for her actions/choices.

The woman is responsible for choices/actions.
You seem to be whining that she has more choices after having sex.
She has more choices simply because it is her body.

And i have already explained why it isn't exclusively a matter of the 'woman's body'.

Yes, you have repeated it ad nauseum and it is just as irrelevant now as it was the last umpteen times you mentioned it.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Larceny, murder, torture, I dont know, what ever a human with complete autonomy would be able to do that would be wrong.

I'm speechless.

It's rare when I actually witness firsthand a level of misogyny presented here, but when it rears it's ugly head, I just need to step back and marvel at the sheer lunacy of it.

 

[Me Myself]

It's OK not to save someone's life by donating blood, spinal fluid, organs, etc. In other words, you have no legal obligation to let another person use your body to sustain their own life without your consent.

Should we apply this same rule to pregnant women, or should we make a law compelling everyone to donate life saving fluids and organs on demand? It should we have a double standard, where we all have the right to refuse to use or bodies to save lives we happen to be pregnant?

Depends.

We are talking about a scenario where the woman knew FULL WELL she risked puting a life COMPLETELY at her mercy, so getting said life out of that support when it was her (naturally not alone, but still her) who put that life in that position changes everything.

 

[Koldo]

Based on what?
I mean other than the idea that it is "unfair" to the man that his choices stop at pregnancy?

I have already said this before.
She needs no further choices. She already made hers at the moment she had sex.

 

[Me Myself]

I'm speechless.

It's rare when I actually witness firsthand a level of misogyny presented here, but when it rears it's ugly head, I just need to step back and marvel at the sheer lunacy of it.

Misoginy? They are human.

Total human autonomy for everyone means no laws.

Why would we want to disolve all law? Or are you proposing that women have some sort of moral perfection so that absolute autonomy would affect them differently than men on the moral scale?

 

[Koldo]

It isn't a question of should or shouldn't. It's a biological fact. If a woman doesn't want to be pregnant, she can do something about it, even if men like yourself do everything in their power to make it more difficult and dangerous for her.

She agreed to take responsibility for the child that could be born at the moment she had sex by supporting him/her.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

So what?

Just what I thought. It's her body, and somehow it doesn't matter.

It doesn't matter to you that her body is being used against her will.

You never answered my question on if you are playing Devil's Advocate, btw.