Got curious about something... (regards abortion and father`s duties)

[Koldo]

You keep saying that, but it never seems to overcome the hurdle that it is a fact that one more option is still available to her, legal or not.

If you want to get into that, men also have more options which are illegal.
I don't see the point of bringing it up though.

 

[McBell]

If this is all you can say, you are the one who failed.

Yet I am not the one with a list of unsupported claims...

Nice try.

 

[McBell]

No. She faces the consequences of her actions by accepting the choice she made at sex. The choice that she would have to support a child if she got pregnant.

except that is not the choice the woman has to make when she has sex.
That is the choice the man has to make.

 

[Alceste]

It does matter. But the moment she had sex, her body is not being used against her will.



It is more like: Use a certain argument you don't agree with and see what happens!

I use it in some posts, while in others i clearly point out its flaw.

What i disagree with is when it was said that the choice to have sex automatically makes the men responsible for the child that may be born as a result of this act. I disagree with this, more than anything else, because if the sex binds the man, it must, unless we apply a double standard, bind the woman to the obligation of supporting her child. And if a woman resorts to an abortion, she is doing the opposite of what it means to 'support her child'.

I would say that what binds a man/woman to this responsibility is the existence of a person, who shares half of his/her DNA, and that is in need of support.

You've completely missed the point of my post on the fathers choices. I was referring to his range of options for birth control. I wasn't claiming that a man is choosing to become a Dad every time he has sex, because that would be ridiculous. A man might choose not to wear a condom, and a possible consequence of THAT choice is an unwanted pregnancy. There's nothing he can do about that if he still doesn't want to be a Dad, except to make that known to the pregnant woman. She'll probably take that into consideration when she considers the options that remain to her. If she decides to have a baby, then they are both stuck with the responsibility. Maybe that sucks if he never wanted to be a Dad in the first place, but he could have used a condom.

I feel like I'm explaining the birds and the bees to a four year old.

 

[Koldo]

Yes it does.
it is her body therefore it is her choice.
Why you would think that her body being used is irrelevant is something I cannot fathom outside your being desperate for an argument.

It is irrelevant because she agreed with it beforehand.

Again, you have not addressed the point.
you have merely made the same statement without any thing to support it.

What have you supported your arguments with?

really?
So what is the choice you claim is "arbitrary"?

I didn't say any choice is arbitrary.
I mentioned arbitrary 'reasons'.

Since you have completely failed to show any double standard is being employed...

Blind eyes can't see.

If she decides to get an abortion, then the mans responsibility ALSO stops.
If she does not get an abortion, then she also has a responsibility to the resulting child.

Yes, so?

I wonder why you do not think it as unfair that the father has no responsibilities from conception to birth, but the mother does?

I don't find it fair. But nothing can be done about it.
And once you willingly accept it, you must keep your end of the "bargain".

Again, based on what?
And also again, I mean other than you thinking it "unfair"....

Logical reasoning.
Otherwise we have to use a fallacy known as double standard.

I must be, seeing as you are doing nothing but repeating the same thing over and over...

Ditto.

 

[Alceste]

If you want to get into that, men also have more options which are illegal.
I don't see the point of bringing it up though.

The point is that you keep pretending the option of abortion or willfully inducing a miscarriage doesn't exist, when it does and always has, and always will.

 

[Me Myself]

The point is that you keep pretending the option of abortion or willfully inducing a miscarriage doesn't exist, when it does and always has, and always will.

Beheading the mother when she does want to have the baby also exist for the man... we are not discussing whatever they can do to prevent the child, but what it is moral to do or not.

 

[Koldo]

and once again you are merely repeating the same thing.

You have as yet to explain your alleged double standard, you have yet to show that it does not matter that the woman's body is used for the duration of the pregnancy, you have as yet to show that the woman's choices should have to stop when the mans choices are depleted.

We are merely going to go round and round on the merry-go-round unless you are able to actually support your argument with something other than "it's not fair".

I have already explained it several times.
First, if you bind the man to the responsibility of supporting a child because he had sex, you must do the same with a woman. Not doing so is called double standard.
Second, if a woman is bound to the responsibility of supporting a child, it doesn't matter if the pregnancy takes place in her womb. She accepted this condition once she had sex.

 

[Willamena]

It is irrelevant because she agreed with it beforehand.

She agreed beforehand to look after her own well-being. And she has that right.

 

[Koldo]

Yet I am not the one with a list of unsupported claims...

Nice try.

What have you supported so far?

 

[Me Myself]

She agreed beforehand to look after her own well-being. And she has that right.

The very highest majorit of women simply wont die from childbirth in todays society. they ll be pretty much fine.

Most cases it is comfort, not well being.

 

[Koldo]

The point is that you keep pretending the option of abortion or willfully inducing a miscarriage doesn't exist, when it does and always has, and always will.

I am not pretending they don't exist.
The point is that if sex binds a person to responsibility of supporting a child, then these options must not be used.

 

[Koldo]

except that is not the choice the woman has to make when she has sex.
That is the choice the man has to make.

Double standard!
You are applying a different standard to women.
If sex binds men, it must bind women.

 

[Alceste]

Beheading the mother when she does want to have the baby also exist for the man... we are not discussing whatever they can do to prevent the child, but what it is moral to do or not.

Not everyone agrees that abortion is immoral. In my country, a large majority is in favour of free, safe, legal access to abortion. We all agree that murdering a pregnant woman because you don't want to be a Dad is wrong, though. That's why the men who do that end up in jail.

I have the perfect solution for this conundrum, though: anybody who thinks abortion is immoral doesn't have to have one. Do you think that's reasonable? Why or why not?

 

[Alceste]

The very highest majorit of women simply wont die from childbirth in todays society. they ll be pretty much fine.

Most cases it is comfort, not well being.

How idiotic. Show me your evidence that the primary reason given by women for choosing abortion is "comfort".

 

[Me Myself]

Not everyone agrees that abortion is immoral. In my country, a large majority is in favour of free, safe, legal access to abortion. We all agree that murdering a pregnant woman because you don't want to be a Dad is wrong, though. That's why the men who do that end up in jail.

I have the perfect solution for this conundrum, though: anybody who thinks abortion is immoral doesn't have to have one. Do you think that's reasonable? Why or why not?

Its not reasonable because the unborn had the abortion anyways.

 

[Koldo]

You've completely missed the point of my post on the fathers choices. I was referring to his range of options for birth control. I wasn't claiming that a man is choosing to become a Dad every time he has sex, because that would be ridiculous. A man might choose not to wear a condom, and a possible consequence of THAT choice is an unwanted pregnancy. There's nothing he can do about that if he still doesn't want to be a Dad, except to make that known to the pregnant woman. She'll probably take that into consideration when she considers the options that remain to her. If she decides to have a baby, then they are both stuck with the responsibility. Maybe that sucks if he never wanted to be a Dad in the first place, but he could have used a condom.

I feel like I'm explaining the birds and the bees to a four year old.

Do not reduce your post to this.
You post clearly said that if a man has sex with a woman, it is a result of his personal choices, and therefore, he has to face the consequence. Which means to support the child. It is not that he is choosing to become a father every time he has sex, but rather that he is going through a risk and he has to be made responsible for the consequence.

 

[Me Myself]

How idiotic. Show me your evidence that the primary reason given by women for choosing abortion is "comfort".

primary thing you are saying is "its my body" but you are well ready to shut down the body of a being you put into a sate of absolute dependency to your body.

 

[McBell]

It is irrelevant because she agreed with it beforehand.

What did she agree to?
If your claim is that she agreed to giving birth and to NOT have a child when she agreed to have sex, youa re just plain flat out wrong.
Why?
Because unlike the man, the woman has options after the conception.

You can try all you like to ignore this fact, but it is still there.

What have you supported your arguments with?

What argument have I made?

I didn't say any choice is arbitrary.
I mentioned arbitrary 'reasons'.

Yes you did.
My apologies for the misunderstanding.

Blind eyes can't see.

I cannot see what you have not presented...

Yes, so?

Blind eyes can not see.

I don't find it fair. But nothing can be done about it.
And once you willingly accept it, you must keep your end of the "bargain".

What bargain do you think the woman entered into?

Logical reasoning.
Otherwise we have to use a fallacy known as double standard.

yet you have not shown how there is anything logical about your reasoning.
In fact, the more you post the more it looks like you are allowing passion to rule reason.

Ditto.

it is not fault that you are content with going in circles.

 

[Koldo]

She agreed beforehand to look after her own well-being. And she has that right.

What if a father said: ''I agreed beforehand to look after my own well-being. And if i support a child, i am going to reduce it.''?