Greek Exit form the Euro

[Lyndon]

This apparent hatred of Greek people, all because of something that has almost nothing to do with the people and almost everything to do with their and foreign governments, is disgusting, every country has debt they seem to have no interest in paying back, as Augustus so intelligently points out it is the actual banking system that bares the blame, not the Greek people.

 

[Flankerl]

brb getting a second undeclared job, find me some dead family member to get the pension and stop paying taxes.

Its the system which is at fault. If we repeat it often enough it will perhaps become true.


But it doesn't matter. They voted OXI, they don't want any more money with some kind of string attached to it. Well that's too bad...

 

[Lyndon]

Israel has only been able to exist with billions of dollars of foreign aid, which they have no intention of paying back, not a whole lot different from borrowing billions then not paying it back. Of course I'm sure some will argue that Israel deserves that money and the Greeks do not.

Israel since 1948 has received something like $121 billion in foreign aid, roughly half as much as Greece has been loaned, for a much smaller country with much less people.

 

[Augustus]

Uhm actually most shareholders aren't Banks anymore. Its the various EU states.

Debt is owed to banks and other EU governments, all of whom are partly responsible for the problems. If Greeks should pay the costs of their incompetent and corrupt politicians, then so can the rest of Europe.

Also don't get the logic 'Greeks are lazy and profligate. Hey, lets lend them lots of money that they can't pay back because we really, really have a nice dream about Europe as a shining beacon of hope around the world and a counterbalance to those nasty Americans'.

What if I told you that there is basically no housing or credit bubble in Germany? People are extremely wary about taking a credit and getting into debt.

Well and uhm yeah the Greek financial problems are a Greek fault, of course they should bear the brunt. Especially since they don't want to change at all.

Why has economic depression gone hand in hand with record highs on the stock market?

What has been causing high prices for commodities, including foodstuffs?

It is not about consumer credit in Germany, it is about Western economic policy and its effects on the global financial system which is becoming almost a giant ponzi scheme.

Yes of course, which is why most average people want Greece out of the Eurozone.

Also fun fact: Bailouts fixed the problems in other Eurozone members, its just the Greeks who are rather... special.

If 50% youth unemployment is 'fixed', is certainly a point for discussion. A short term crisis was averted, but this was really just a delay, and throughout that delay there is economic depression.

Iceland refusing to honour crippling debts fixed their problems a whole lot better though.

Anyway, wouldn't count my chickens about the worst of Europe's problems being over.

So that the average Greek isn't paying his taxes, has two jobs of which one is declared, takes benefits for deceased family members is perfectly okay. After all its the system which is at fault. Oh and don't worry there is more going wrong, just don't feel like writing it all down.

Perhaps everyone else is just not as clever as the Greeks are.

This was true when they joined the Euro too. They were allowed to join due to a combination of ideological utopianism and venal corruption. Germany was a leading driver of European integration and the Euro and was ideologically blinded to its foreseeable effects. Why should Germany not also pay for its stupidity?

Ideological venture, yeah Europeans tend to not shoot at each other anymore. What a horrible world I live in.

Unaccountable? No not really, its just a Representative Democracy. If you don't like what your head of government is doing in the EU you should vote for another one next time.

Ironically, the ideological drive behind the EU is what will probably destroy it. 'Ever closer union...' has caused a blindness to reality. The EU is a utopian political movement based on an unworkable dream, not one with a realistic goal of a Europe of independent states sharing interest in a loosely bound economic community. Unfortunately, reality always trumps ideology in the end.

And having elections does not an accountable system make. See TTIP for a clear example. The democratic deficit of the EU is almost undeniable.

 

[Augustus]

Its the system which is at fault. If we repeat it often enough it will perhaps become true.

Or alternatively we can pretend that "it's not the system that is at fault, it's just that we haven't implemented it properly yet..."

See, for example, communism, theocracy, etc.

 

[philbo]

This apparent hatred of Greek people, all because of something that has almost nothing to do with the people and almost everything to do with their and foreign governments, is disgusting, every country has debt they seem to have no interest in paying back, as Augustus so intelligently points out it is the actual banking system that bares the blame, not the Greek people.

It's a bit more complicated than that, though

There's blame aplenty to go round, enough that both sides are happy to point to what the others have done wrong/should do without wanting to get their own side in order.

The Greeks will have to change their culture of not paying tax at some point, the EU & the rest of the world isn't going to pay for them forever; the EU when they took the reins of the Greek economy tried to "cure" it by swingeing cuts that hurt the poorest (who aren't the ones evading most of their tax, anyway) and doing nothing to increase tax income.

Israel has only been able to exist with billions of dollars of foreign aid, which they have no intention of paying back, not a whole lot different from borrowing billions then not paying it back. Of course I'm sure some will argue that Israel deserves that money and the Greeks do not.

Israel since 1948 has received something like $121 billion in foreign aid, roughly half as much as Greece has been loaned, for a much smaller country with much less people.

Israel isn't "much smaller" - it has 80% of the population of Greece. And since 1948? Compared to Greek loans from the last 20 years. It's a quite a bit less than half, too. You put all these factors together, and you have a difference closer to an order of magnitude rather than something comparable.. the other thing is to look at what has been done with the money: Israel has developed hugely in the last 60 years (even given the silly money it has spent on arms); Greece has basically pissed away all the money it has been loaned as though it were a donation with no strings attached.

If Greeks should pay the costs of their incompetent and corrupt politicians, then so can the rest of Europe.

But it's not just their politicians who're corrupt, the corruption spreads through a significant proportion of the population: evading tax is kind of what people do.. However, I kind of agree that the pain should be shared.. the strings attached will have to be more along the lines of trying to force a change in culture before the same thing happens again, than the simple "just stop spending" austerity measures the EU tried to enforce last time.

 

[Lyndon]

Evading tax is what the richest people in every country do, what makes Greece so different??

The point is there's nothing "wrong" with Greek people, they are just people like any other country. If their economy is that much weaker than the rest of Europe, then maybe its the EU's prerogative to grant them money to specifically grow their economy, not loans to enslave them indefinitely.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Evading tax is what the richest people in every country do, what makes Greece so different??

The point is there's nothing "wrong" with Greek people, they are just people like any other country. If their economy is that much weaker than the rest of Europe, then maybe its the EU's prerogative to grant them money to specifically grow their economy, not loans to enslave them indefinitely.

People are just people, but cultures are NOT all identical. Want to compare tax evasion rates and see how your assumption holds up?

Tax evasion and corruption in Greece - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In particular check out the section on tax evasion, and how Greece compares to Germany.

 

[metis]

Two economists were talking today on "Morning Joe", and one of the things they mentioned is that 89% of the tax revenues the Greek government is supposed to collect doesn't get collected, as avoiding taxes is a national past-time there (less than 3% if German taxes get uncollected by comparison).

Seems that the Republican Party here in the States wants to mimic the Greeks. [yep, I just had to say this ]

 

[Revoltingest]

John Cleese has an interesting take on European politics....
ROBUST - Rants: OT & OTT: ALERTS TO THREATS IN EUROPE: BY JOHN CLEESE (showing1-34of34)

 

[Shad]

Why doesn't the EU just cancel the debt placed upon Greece? It would make things go a whole lot more smoothly.

Greece's issue is that it's policies are not fiscally responsible. To remove it's debt would balloon this issue and undermine reforms attempting to address it. The loan was to prevent an economic collapse while allowing it's leaders to enact reforms, they failed to do this, its population failed to elect leaders which would do this. Maybe it is time for Greece and it's population to face the consequences of their inaction

 

[Lyndon]

Maybe its time for every single American to be held accountable, too, for the actions of their government.(by the same logic, or lack thereof)

 

[metis]

Not only do the Greek citizens bear responsibility, so do the investors.

 

[Revoltingest]

Maybe its time for every single American to be held accountable, too, for the actions of their government.(by the same logic, or lack thereof)

As one footing the bill for our costly misadventures, I already am being held accountable.
Let the Greeks experience the consequences of decisions too.

 

[columbus]

I love how they keep getting to vote on whether or not to deal with the problem - and voting no, then having a big protest about it.

I think the Germans should hold a referendum.

" In the absence of Greek fiscal responsibility, do you want the German government to use your taxes to bail out the Greeks? Choose one.

__YES

__NO"

Tom

 

[columbus]

Israel since 1948 has received something like $121 billion in foreign aid, roughly half as much as Greece has been loaned,

OMG!
The Zionists are just ruthless! Look what they've done to Greece!
Will it never end?
Tom
T

 

[esmith]

Evading tax is what the richest people in every country do, what makes Greece so different??

The point is there's nothing "wrong" with Greek people, they are just people like any other country. If their economy is that much weaker than the rest of Europe, then maybe its the EU's prerogative to grant them money to specifically grow their economy, not loans to enslave them indefinitely.

Hmmm, give me another country that has the same outlook toward working that the majority of the Greek populations have. What is that you ask.....well
.
75% of Greek Pensioners Enjoy Early Retirement | GreekReporter.com
Europe Balks at Greece's Retire-at-50 Rules - CBS News
In Greece, A Hairdresser Can Retire At 50 With Full Benefits - Business Insider

 

[sandandfoam]

Since the write off of corporate debt is commonplace, even by EU governments, it seems odd to me that the write off of unsustainable national debt is an issue.
The Greeks have sucked up more austerity than any other country for the last 5 years. It hasn't worked. It will not work. Even the IMF realise that.
That the EU can manage to turn a first world country into the location of a disaster such as this because of a sovereign debt crisis says it all. Neo liberal economic and political foolishness is the cause of this crisis not the cure.
Fair play to the Greeks for voting no. A debt deal similar to the one afforded West Germany after WW2 would be fair. Not a hope it will happen though. The neo-liberal rulers of Europe will crush Greece because it suits them to do so. Shameful.

 

[philbo]

Maybe its time for every single American to be held accountable, too, for the actions of their government.(by the same logic, or lack thereof)

You haven't been reading the replies to your earlier posts on this thread, have you?

 

[Wirey]

Hmmm, give me another country that has the same outlook toward working that the majority of the Greek populations have. What is that you ask.....well
.
75% of Greek Pensioners Enjoy Early Retirement | GreekReporter.com
Europe Balks at Greece's Retire-at-50 Rules - CBS News
In Greece, A Hairdresser Can Retire At 50 With Full Benefits - Business Insider

These policies are a large reason the Greeks carry so much debt. They allow their politicians to buy votes with short term improvements, and now the bill is due.