Greek Myth vs. Christian belief

[idea]

I'm a much bigger fan of the Greek mythologies though. Their gods were fallable, bitter, vengeful, and permiscuous. They make a perfect religious backdrop because they show us poor humans our flaws in ways that demonstrate the consequences of our actions, instead of just labelling everything as taboo and demanding recompension.

you cannot learn much from someone who is no better than you though... to learn math, generally you go to someone who actually kows it etc. etc. There is merit in seeing/admit flaws, but you cannot really progress unless you have something perfect to show you what to aim for. There are billions of ways to go wrong, you could spend your whole life experimenting with all the different flaws that there are rather than working towards something good is all...

 

[Bedlam]

By my definition they are. If they're not, they don't fit my definition. Not all of them make the news, either.

And no, it's not like the D&D scare. It's a question of what the word means to me.

Huh... No True Scotsman?

 

[Bedlam]

you cannot learn much from someone who is no better than you though... to learn math, generally you go to someone who actually kows it etc. etc. There is merit in seeing/admit flaws, but you cannot really progress unless you have something perfect to show you what to aim for. There are billions of ways to go wrong, you could spend your whole life experimenting with all the different flaws that there are rather than working towards something good is all...

That's what is magnificant about the Greek gods. They all had one or two massive flaws, but they were also perfect in their area of expertese. Hermes was the perfect messenger. Something for messengers to aspire to and learn from.

 

[Storm]

Huh... No True Scotsman?

Hardly. I already acknowledged that the word has other meanings. I'm simply pointing out that one meaning is my default, and organizations that don't fit that definition don't fit. It's not a fallacy, it's a tautology.

 

[idea]

That's what is magnificant about the Greek gods. They all had one or two massive flaws, but they were also perfect in their area of expertese. Hermes was the perfect messenger. Something for messengers to aspire to and learn from.

The "perfect messenger" would be perfect in all other areas too. If he was not perfect in all other areas, something would trip him up, eventually keeping him from delivering the message, making him an imperfect messenger.

The best thing is to have a perfect teacher.

I do not think anything or anyone with massive flaws is magnificent.

 

[themadhair]

I also use the term cult to refer to organisations that are harmful to/for its members/society due to their undue influence over those members.

You could write an essay on what the word means. In fact - Cult FAQ : Frequently asked questions about cults

 

[idea]

I also use the term cult to refer to organisations that are harmful to/for its members/society due to their undue influence over those members.

You could write an essay on what the word means. In fact - Cult FAQ : Frequently asked questions about cults

so... anything with "undue influence" is bad? Influence is not bad, depends on what they are trying to influence them to do.

 

[themadhair]

so... anything with "undue influence" is bad? Influence is not bad, depends on what they are trying to influence them to do.

What is the point of quote-mining my sentence?

 

[Bedlam]

Hardly. I already acknowledged that the word has other meanings. I'm simply pointing out that one meaning is my default, and organizations that don't fit that definition don't fit. It's not a fallacy, it's a tautology.

I haven't been able to find any dictionary definition that says a cult can only be a cult if it is harmful to its members. But I could make an educated guess that most people would agree with your denotation, so you could call it a tautology.

Really, it's a social Meme that works from fallacy.

 

[Storm]

I haven't been able to find any dictionary definition that says a cult can only be a cult if it is harmful to its members.

For the third time, I am well aware that there are other valid definitions, among them "religion." But we already have a word for that, it's religion. I am merely saying that this is the meaning that springs to mind when I hear the word "cult," and the sense I mean when I say it.

But I could make an educated guess that most people would agree with your denotation,

Yes, it's the popular definition, also valid.

so you could call it a tautology.

No, that's totally irrelevant. The tautology is "if it does not fit my definition, then my definition does not apply." Do you even know what "tautology" means?

Really, it's a social Meme that works from fallacy.

It's no more a meme than any other word with a popular definition that differs from formal, like "theist" or "theory," and no fallacy is involved.

 

[Bedlam]

The "perfect messenger" would be perfect in all other areas too. If he was not perfect in all other areas, something would trip him up, eventually keeping him from delivering the message, making him an imperfect messenger.

The best thing is to have a perfect teacher.

I do not think anything or anyone with massive flaws is magnificent.

Why would an omnipotent, idealized teacher be necessary if all I want to learn is how to be a good messenger? If I learned from Hermes, he could give me lessons from his mistakes, teaching me not only how to do my job, but how he learned to do the job too.

The omnipotent teacher you're talking about doesn't have the capacity to explain how he attained his knowledge - the answer would simply be, "I've always known". Hermes is a better teacher because he can show how he made mistakes.

In my personal opinion, something with a massive flaw can be magnificant indeed. I look at the Grand Canyon and see nothing but one big flaw in the earth, and yet that flaw is magnificant.

 

[Bedlam]

For the third time, I am well aware that there are other valid definitions, among them "religion." But we already have a word for that, it's religion. I am merely saying that this is the meaning that springs to mind when I hear the word "cult," and the sense I mean when I say it.

In this case, there are not other valid definitions. Look up "cult" on dictionary.com and you will see what I mean - not a single definition has anything to do with the cult harming its members.

Yes, it's the popular definition, also valid.

We call that "connotation". It's different from "denotation".

The denotation of a word is the exact dictionary definition. The connotation is what it's used for (often incorrectly) in a culture.

No, that's totally irrelevant. The tautology is "if it does not fit my definition, then my definition does not apply." Do you even know what "tautology" means?

Yup! I looked it up just to make sure I was using it properly. I'd hate to make a mistake and use the word in the wrong way - I get yelled at for doing that

It's no more a meme than any other word with a popular definition that differs from formal, like "theist" or "theory," and no fallacy is involved.

It IS a Meme. The REAL meaning of Meme. Not a cultural trend like "lol", but part of a culture that exists in the social structure of the people's minds that will be passed down to their children. Just because people are using the term a lot doesn't mean it's not valid. Especially when they're using it wrong.

 

[Father Heathen]

Why is it the Greek mythology is considered a myth but Christianity is not? what makes a myth and what makes Christianity not a myth?

If you have a large number of believers, it's a religion.

If you have a small number of believers, it's a cult.

If you have no number of believers, it's a mythology.

 

[Storm]

In this case, there are not other valid definitions. Look up "cult" on dictionary.com and you will see what I mean - not a single definition has anything to do with the cult harming its members.

We call that "connotation". It's different from "denotation".

The denotation of a word is the exact dictionary definition. The connotation is what it's used for (often incorrectly) in a culture.

No, connotation is not strong enough a word for popular definition. The dictionary may not have caught up yet, but "cult" has a very specific popular meaning.

Yup! I looked it up just to make sure I was using it properly. I'd hate to make a mistake and use the word in the wrong way - I get yelled at for doing that

If you know what it means, why did you connect it to something so irrelevant?

It IS a Meme. The REAL meaning of Meme. Not a cultural trend like "lol", but part of a culture that exists in the social structure of the people's minds that will be passed down to their children. Just because people are using the term a lot doesn't mean it's not valid. Especially when they're using it wrong.

I didn't say it wasn't a meme. I said it was "no more a meme than any other word with a popular definition that differs from formal, like 'theist' or 'theory.'" There's a difference.

 

[Azakel]

If you have no number of believers, it's a mythology.

Then I wounder why some keep calling the Greek religion a Mythology in this sense? Since they have at lest 2,000 known registered believers.

 

[Bedlam]

No, connotation is not strong enough a word for popular definition. The dictionary may not have caught up yet, but "cult" has a very specific popular meaning.

Connotation is defined as an alternative meaning for a word - an undertone that the word often conveys, but that is not the literal definition.

"Connotation is a subjective cultural and/or emotional coloration in addition to the explicit or denotative meaning of any specific word or phrase in a language, i.e. emotional association with a word."
Connotation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If you know what it means, why did you connect it to something so irrelevant?

You claimed "Cults harm their members" was a tautism. I agreed with you, and added that it was also a meme functioning from fallacy. You might disagree about it being a meme functioning from fallacy, but you already claimed it as a tautism, and I agreed that we could use that as an appropriate term. We disagree on other points, but this is common ground. Must we keep debating it?

I didn't say it wasn't a meme. I said it was "no more a meme than any other word with a popular definition that differs from formal, like 'theist' or 'theory.'" There's a difference.

Then I must not have understood your point. Could you re-word what you meant please?

 

[Storm]

Connotation is defined as an alternative meaning for a word - an undertone that the word often conveys, but that is not the literal definition.

"Connotation is a subjective cultural and/or emotional coloration in addition to the explicit or denotative meaning of any specific word or phrase in a language, i.e. emotional association with a word."
Connotation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Yes, I know, and the semantic games are boring me.

You claimed "Cults harm their members" was a tautism.

No, I did not. If you agreed with that, you were in error.

I claimed "If x does not meet my definition of y, then my definition of y does not apply to x" was a tautology. It's not even about cults, it's about the definition of "definition."

Then I must not have understood your point. Could you re-word what you meant please?

That every word, language itself, is a meme in the sense you are using it. Therefore, calling it a meme is irrelevant, if not entirely pointless.

 

[Bedlam]

Yes, I know, and the semantic games are boring me.

I wish I didn't need to argue down to the level of semantics, but it's not a game. I provided evidence that your opinion about cults was just that - an opinion. It may be a widely accepted opinion (one that I share, and big surprise, being Atheist), but the thread isn't about our opinions on religion. It's about the difference between the Greek Myths (a Mythology) and Christian belief (a Religion). I stated that Cults fall somewhere in-between, and that the only REAL difference is the number of members.

Other people have stated EXACTLY the same thing in this thread, though you seem to have ignored their comments to focus on me directly.

It may be semantics, but it's only semantics because you refuse to find common ground with me on any one of my points. Maybe we're just two completely different people with completely different opinions. I doubt it though. This has gone far beyond the OP and now the only point is for both of us to show how stubborn we really are.

My stubbornness is justified, because I'm at least willing to cite sources to support my argument. I don't know why you're being stubborn. But I'm sure your next reply will include some cutting remark at my expense. I don't want to see this thread degenerate that far, so can we agree to disagree here?

No, I did not. If you agreed with that, you were in error.

I claimed "If x does not meet my definition of y, then my definition of y does not apply to x" was a tautology. It's not even about cults, it's about the definition of "definition."

And you're bored with semantic games? You just claimed that we're debating the definition of "definition".

I wish there was a stronger word than semantics to use here... but nothing comes to mind.

Uber-semantics anyone?

That every word, language itself, is a meme in the sense you are using it. Therefore, calling it a meme is irrelevant, if not entirely pointless.

So you don't know what a Meme is? I'd be more than happy to explain. In fact, I posted references in another thread to two of Daniel Quinn's books - Ishmael and Beyond Civilization - that elegantly describe what exactly it is I'm talking about when I refer to Memes.

But if you don't want to delve into it, it's no skin off my back. It's not the point of the thread anyway.

 

[Storm]

I provided evidence that your opinion about cults was just that - an opinion.

Where did I say it was anything else? Quote me.

It may be a widely accepted opinion (one that I share, and big surprise, being Atheist), but the thread isn't about our opinions on religion.

Ah, I beg to differ. The question of the OP elicits nothing BUT opinion on religion.

It's about the difference between the Greek Myths (a Mythology) and Christian belief (a Religion). I stated that Cults fall somewhere in-between, and that the only REAL difference is the number of members.

A position with which I emphatically disagree, and is itself subject to a couple of fallacies, particularly the appeal to numbers.

Perhaps you missed my original post in this thread, in which I detailed the differences as I see them. Would you like me to find and repost it?

Other people have stated EXACTLY the same thing in this thread, though you seem to have ignored their comments to focus on me directly.

As I recall, I responded to you because you responded to me. I'm aware that others hold the same position, but they're not talking to me.

It may be semantics, but it's only semantics because you refuse to find common ground with me on any one of my points. Maybe we're just two completely different people with completely different opinions. I doubt it though. This has gone far beyond the OP and now the only point is for both of us to show how stubborn we really are.

My stubbornness is justified, because I'm at least willing to cite sources to support my argument. I don't know why you're being stubborn. But I'm sure your next reply will include some cutting remark at my expense. I don't want to see this thread degenerate that far, so can we agree to disagree here?

You do me a disservice. I've been repeating myself because you don't seem to understand what I'm saying, which frustrates me. I'm not being mulish, rude, or unkind, I'm trying to make myself understood.

And you're bored with semantic games? You just claimed that we're debating the definition of "definition".

I wish there was a stronger word than semantics to use here... but nothing comes to mind.

Uber-semantics anyone?

Ah, so that's why you assumed I'd resort to insults, to justify doing so yourself. God forbid you simply admit your error.

So you don't know what a Meme is? I'd be more than happy to explain. In fact, I posted references in another thread to two of Daniel Quinn's books - Ishmael and Beyond Civilization - that elegantly describe what exactly it is I'm talking about when I refer to Memes.

But if you don't want to delve into it, it's no skin off my back. It's not the point of the thread anyway.

Actually, I have a defunct thread on the topic. I would invite you to it, but I somehow doubt your intentions.

 

[Willamena]

Then I wounder why some keep calling the Greek religion a Mythology in this sense? Since they have at lest 2,000 known registered believers.

I think he was joking (at least, I hope so).