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Greek Myth vs. Christian belief

Oberon

Well-Known Member
Given the nature of Jesus’s life as describe by those accounts I don’t see why it is reasonable to claim the most likely scenario is existence. Applying this to other groups would seem to lead to the existence of whatever mythical figure those groups’ beliefs started with.


That's because your missing the most vital distinction. Let's take an example, say the mystery cult worship of Mithras which began around the beginning of the second century (probably shortly after the last gospel, John, was written. This cult was primarily restricted to men, and most of the worshippers were military. There are a lot of similiarities between Mithras as a savior diety and Jesus. And the cult worshippers of Mithras, like Jesus, looked to Mithras as in some way a founder. However, none of them believed that he had lived and walked the earth only a few decades ago. Mithras, like all mythic figures, belongs to a very remote past.

The Jesus tradition was very different. Rather than locating foundation from a mythic figure from the remote past, the tradition describes the mission of Jesus occuring in a specific time and place. What's more, this time is very close (comparatively) to the earliest references we have of Jesus. When Mark was written, disciples who knew Jesus were still alive. Papias describes listening to the followers of Jesus' disciples to memorize their teachings. Paul met the disciples of Jesus. And so on.

In other words, the founding of christianity is very different from other cults based on purely mythical figures. These cults have foundation myths which always occur "in time immemorial," not transmitted teachings and stories from a man who lived not long not long ago. There is more writing on Jesus within a century of his life than there is for all but a handful of figures from history. Combine this with the controll exercised over the transmission of the tradition, and it is very likely that many of Jesus' words, and some of his deeds, were reliably transmitted.
 

themadhair

Well-Known Member
If the argument is the brevity between the date claimed for the figure and the first writings discussing the figure then you still aren’t swaying me. You are making the claim that no such writings ever existed for other cultures to make the differentiation – but the way I see it that differentiation can’t be established.

Even if I granted that such a differentiation could be made I still don’t see your logic as anything other than a false ‘michotomy’ (like dichotomy only more).
 

logician

Well-Known Member
I don't remember Paul or Mark or anyone for that matter giving a "date" of Jesus' death or birth, (Neither talks about his birth). As a matter of fact, such a thing cannot be done historically.

You cannot positively claim the existence of any historical figure based upon such flimsy evidence.
 

Oberon

Well-Known Member
You are making the claim that no such writings ever existed for other cultures to make the differentiation – but the way I see it that differentiation can’t be established.

Why not? Have you studied mythic literature? The whole reason behind differentiation is that it is based on "differences." What myth can you point to that describes its founder as having lived merely decades prior to the foundation of the cult? What mythic "godman" can you point to who had disiples mentioned by contemporaries? There are none. Certainly there are wonder and miracle workers other than Jesus who are written, but they are historical figures, not myths (for example, Apollonius of Tyana is probably historical, although we have less information about him that for Jesus).

Your problem is that you are rejecting these texts as entirely mythical because they contain myth. However, analysis of greco-roman literature places the gospels into the genre of bioi/vitae (as I am getting tired of saying). In other words, they are biographies of sorts, not myths. Most of ancient history contained mythic elements. By your argument, we would have to reject virtually every single historical text. Why not, instead, parse these text, reject the miraculous, and try to determine historicity? Experts have been doing this to the gospels for centuries, and as a result their is unanimity among experts that the gospels contain a historical core and that Jesus was a historical figure.

Even if I granted that such a differentiation could be made I still don’t see your logic

It's quite simple. I'll explain via steps if that helps.

Basic Steps in Determining historicity:

1. The genre of the text: If the text is not interested in recording history (say, because it is a play, or a novel) than a priori it is far less likely to be historical. The Gospels are bioi/vitae, and so are concerned with historicity. This does not mean they would count as history by today's standards, but then neither would most (perhaps all) of ancient history. All of it, from Herodotus to Pliny to Plutarch, has to be analyzed and parsed to determine historicity.

2. Date: How far removed is the text from the events described? For most cults, their foundation myth is based on events which happened eons ago, not within living memory as with our earliest references to Jesus

3. Multiple attestation: We have many independent references from various sources attesting to Jesus' existence. Within a generation of his death (i.e. while people who were living during Jesus' mission) we have Paul, Q, Ur-mark, Hebrews, and Mark. That is an enormous amount of information compared with most historical figures referenced in ancient history.

4. Reliability of sources: The gospels are based on oral tradition. As such, they are only as reliable as the transmission of this tradition. Examination of orality within similar oral cultures, oral cultures in general, extra-canonical evidence, and within the NT texts themselves reveals that the transmissions of the Jesus tradition was controlled. In otherwords, the bulk of his teachings has likely been reproduced fairly reliably. Certain narratives are also likely to have been transmitted accurately. Where no information was available in the tradition, it appears that (as with other oral traditions) innovation occured (for example, the birth narratives).

In short, when it comes to the existence of Jesus, we have more evidence than for all but a handful of ancient figures. To suppose he is entirely mythical is ridiculous given the date and genre of the sources.

I would suggest you read any number of scholarly works on the historical Jesus.

I don't remember Paul or Mark or anyone for that matter giving a "date" of Jesus' death or birth

So what? Matthew and Luke give his birth as occuring during Herod's reign. However, even if we reject the birth narratives as wholly ahistorical, there are still numerous dates for his life which can nail down the time of his mission (and therefore give a time period in which he lived that is close to the time of literary reference, unlike myths). The passion narrative predates Mark, and records Caiaphas as the high priest. Caiaphas is attested to elsewhere, lending credence not only to the narrative itself but also giving an approximate date of trial. The same is true of Pontius Pilate.

Likewise, John the Baptist and Jesus are recorded in multiple independent traditions as having been contemporaries, again giving a date for Jesus' life (as John the Baptist is also independently attested to).

We also know roughly when Paul lived, and he knew Jesus' disciples, again helping with dating.

In short, we don't need exact dates in order to be historically certain that Jesus lived during a particular period.
 

Oberon

Well-Known Member
3&4 seem to be issues for me.
Your going to need to be more specific.

For three, that is probably THE most important tool for historians of any period, even the present. If you have independent accounts of the same thing (whether it is a teaching of Jesus or an account of a battle) you can make a much stronger case for historicity. If you have only one, it is much more difficult. We have a number of independent attestations of Jesus that are early (here I am using early as in people who were alive when Jesus' mission took place were still alive when the attestation was recorded).

As for #4, I can understand why it would be an issue for you. You probably have never studied oral tradition. If you want, I can refer you to numerous scholarly publications on the subject, both specific to the Jesus tradition and about oral tradition in general. Without reading them, however, you will either have to take my word for it or just realize you haven't researched the field enough to make a judgment.
 

themadhair

Well-Known Member
For 3 I dispute independency. For 4 the whole suggesting things that are impossible tends to hurt credibility.

My complaints are really quite simple if you think about them.
 

Oberon

Well-Known Member
For 3 I dispute independency. For 4 the whole suggesting things that are impossible tends to hurt credibility.

My complaints are really quite simple if you think about them.

You dispute that Q, Mark, and Paul are independent? What scholarly sources can you cite to support such a claim?

As for 4, then again you are faced with cutting out all ancient historical texts. You have to realize that people back then did not have the same standards of history. So Livy records myths, Herodotus talks about Jason and Medea as a matter of history, Josephus discusses God in his histories. That was the way history was written. The fact that ancient history records fantastical elements just means it is not AS reliable as, say, a monograph published by Oxford University Press. That doesn't mean wholly rejecting it is a good idea either.

Jesus likely did perform things that were intepreted as miracles. He wouldn't be the first or last historical person to do so. "Faith healings" are still done today.
The point I made about studying orality is that the material most likely to be transmitted accurately were Jesus' teachings. Events are less likely to be recorded accurately. See the links I provided above
 

herushura

Active Member
Greek Mythology share many similarity's with Christianity/Judaism

Both Have
Creation Story
Fall of Man
Eden = Atlantis # both are primordial paradises
Flood Story #Builds Ark/3 sons repopulated Earth in Greek myth
Poseidon actually means "Lord God"
Moses Like story were baby is cast in river and saved and raised by egyptian princess
Big List of Kings and its storys like the book of kings
large collection of Chronicals, like book of Chronicals
Both had crucifed Messiahs/son of god/lamb of god figures
Virgin/miracle births
satanism
Hell
 
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themadhair

Well-Known Member
You dispute that Q, Mark, and Paul are independent? What scholarly sources can you cite to support such a claim?
No sources. Just that they all make unrealistic claims.

As for 4, then again you are faced with cutting out all ancient historical texts.
Slippery slope fallacy. The NT contains historically useful information – the person they concocted not being one of them.

Jesus likely did perform things that were intepreted as miracles.
He also likely never existed.

The point I made about studying orality is that the material most likely to be transmitted accurately were Jesus' teachings.
Given that one of those teachings was “I am the son of god” and his miracles are so intertwined with the person, I really do think non-existence is more likely.
 

dogsgod

Well-Known Member
Paul describes himself and Peter as apostles appointed by God. Paul does not, nor do any of the epistle writers mention anything about disciples. Disciples were a later gospel development, part of the myth making process.
 
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sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
No sources. Just that they all make unrealistic claims.
So did Copernicus, Galileo, and the Wright Brothers...
The NT contains historically useful information – the person they concocted not being one of them.
You have no way of stating this with any certainty. Therefore, not credible. Oberon makes a convincing argument.
He also likely never existed.
You stand in very small company. Most experts think he did.
Given that one of those teachings was “I am the son of god” and his miracles are so intertwined with the person, I really do think non-existence is more likely.
You don't know much about ancient biography, do you.

George Washington never chopped down the cherry tree, either. That's pretty entwined with his person. Doesn't mea that he didn't exist, though.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Paul describes himself and Peter as apostles appointed by God. Paul, nor any of the epistle writers mention anything about disciples. Disciples were a later gospel development, part of the myth making process.
Not true. Q presents Jesus as a teacher. Q was likely earlier than Paul Given that Jesus was a teacher, all teachers have students, or they wouldn't be teachers. Paul doesn't mention disciples because Paul was't writing gospels. he was composing letters to churches. His timeline and purpose do not make mention of the disciples necessary or even desireable.
 

dogsgod

Well-Known Member
Not true. Q presents Jesus as a teacher. Q was likely earlier than Paul Given that Jesus was a teacher, all teachers have students, or they wouldn't be teachers. Paul doesn't mention disciples because Paul was't writing gospels. he was composing letters to churches. His timeline and purpose do not make mention of the disciples necessary or even desireable.

The fact remains that Paul met Peter and he states that Peter and himself were appointed by God to be apostles.
  1. Galatians 2:8
    For God, who was at work in the ministry of Peter as an apostle to the Jews, was also at work in my ministry as an apostle to the Gentiles.
    Galatians 2:7-9 (in Context) Galatians 2 (Whole Chapter)
The point is, we cannot look to Paul or epistle writers for evidence of any disciples of Jesus. Claims of disciples have no basis outside of the gospel mythology.
 

herushura

Active Member
12 Disciples were plagiarized from Torah, they are the 12 Sons Jacob rewritten.
Simon/Judas - Simeon/Judah
 

blueman

God's Warrior
Historical record (The Bible), Archeological evidence, circumstantial evidence, secular historians and satirists (Josephus, Tacitus, Lucian) of the 1st century and the impact of the life, death and resurrection of Christ on society 2000 years later. Mythology does not possess any power, because the people, places and things never existed. It's hard to make that argument regarding Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Christianity.
 

herushura

Active Member
Sure they are. Highly unlikely

so why pick the magic number twelve -- why not have fourteen disciples, or 9 disciples. Why born a virgin Mary when Mary is the name of the egyptian virgin,,, why didnt they get there own name..

why is he called jesus which is obviously a shortened dionysus # Dion is the Adonai
ysus=yeshu=jesus # same dif

why, or why did he die on a cross on dec 25 when there is a cross constallion above the sun at its lowest southern point. Southern Crux

celtics and egyptian use crosses, get your own symbolizm jesus people please
 
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Oberon

Well-Known Member
No sources. Just that they all make unrealistic claims.
Again, the same is true for all of ancient sources. I have to ask at this point: Have you studied this area at all?


Slippery slope fallacy.
Have you studied ancient history at all? Its not a "slippery slope fallacy." It is understanding the nature of ancient sources. Even though ancient history contained fanstastical elements, it was still differentiated from myth. The gospels take pains to record things "accurately" in the way ancient historians did. For example, in the gospels Jesus is often recorded as calling himself "the son of man." Yet this title disappears in early christian literature. It was obviously remembered as something Jesus said, yet it fit in with a pre-, not post-, easter Jesus. So none of the early christian fathers, or Paul, or the other epistles, discuss it. Yet it was faithfully recorded in the gospel because care was given to remembering Jesus' words. The gospels also record things that are embarassing to their own beliefs, yet there they are, in the gospels, because they were part of the tradition.

The NT contains historically useful information – the person they concocted not being one of them.

Again, have you studied this at all? Your one criterion seems to be "if it has fantastical elements, it must be rejected." Unfortunately for you, the a great deal of historical literature was written prior to the scientific revolution. That means that ancient history incorporated theology, mythology, rumor, etc. What made it different was attempts by the authors to record things as they were believed to have happened.

The early christians took care in transmitting information about Jesus. It is likely that a good deal of his teachings are preserved.

He also likely never existed.

How do you explain christianity? Can you name any other religion/ founded by a mythic person/godman/etc that names its founder and has several independent sources within a few decades of the time he lived?




Given that one of those teachings was “I am the son of god”
Except that he wasn't the only one to use that term. In fact, many scholars have argued that what Jesus meant was that he was the son of god the way all Jews were, he just understood it better.

and his miracles are so intertwined with the person, I really do think non-existence is more likely.
Again, have you studied this at all? The gospels weave numerous indpendent elements of oral tradition into an overall narrative. A large piece of this narrative is simply Jesus' sayings and teachings. Some times they occur in a context, which is usually artificially imposed. Other times he just seems to say things. The point is that the miracle stories, although important, are only a part of the story, and a great deal is independent of them.

And the fact that Jesus performed what were thought to be miracles makes him no different from many other historical figures. There were plenty of exorcists, magicians, wizards, etc, throughout history who we have plenty of information about. Why should the fact that Jesus was thought to have performed miracles make him mythic?
 

Oberon

Well-Known Member
so why pick the magic number twelve -- why not have fourteen disciples, or 9 disciples. Why born a virgin Mary when Mary is the name of the egyptian virgin,,, why didnt they get there own name..

why is he called jesus which is obviously a shortened dionysus
ysus=yeshu=jesus

why, or why did he die on a cross on dec 25 when there is a cross constallion above the sun at its lowest southern point. Southern Crux

celtics and egyptian use crosses, get your own symbolizm jesus people please

Wow. This is really pretty bad. First, Jesus modelled his discipleship on the twelve tribes of Israel. It was a very clear messianic statement. Second, Jesus is not a shortened form of dionysus. What are you talking about? Look at the names: Διόνυσος and Ἰησοῦς. They only thing they have in common really is the final signma. They even belong to different declensions in Greek. This is because one is a greek name, and the other is a semetic name rendered into greek. As for mary, what egyption virgin was named
 
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