Gun rights victory today!

[Revoltingest]

If he beats me to the draw, sure. If I had a gun, the chances of that would be reduced.

You reminded me of a quote from an unexpected source:

The Dalai Lama: "If someone has a gun and is trying to kill you, it would be reasonable to shoot back with your own gun." (May 15, 2001, The Seattle Times)

Perhaps I shouldn't be so surprised.

 

[sandandfoam]

Also, we can't all live in a quaint hobbit shire.

sure tough guy
If the USA had to deal with the troubles we've had here over the 30 years up to the cease fires we'd probably be living in a depleted uranium wasteland.
I'll take quaint hobbit shire every day of the week over paranoid Gotham city.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

sure tough guy
If the USA had to deal with the troubles we've had here over the 30 years up to the cease fires we'd probably be living in a depleted uranium wasteland.
I'll take quaint hobbit shire every day of the week over paranoid Gotham city.

That's funny - your paranoia is ironic.

 

[Magic Man]

Only by interruption.

Sure, but that's still the idea.

Well, you can't unring a bell. They're out there, and there not going away. As long as that's the case, I want one.

They may not be going away, but they could be going away to the point that we don't need them for protection.

If he beats me to the draw, sure. If I had a gun, the chances of that would be reduced.

My point was that if he's already pointing a gun at you, you're pretty much screwed.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

sure tough guy
If the USA had to deal with the troubles we've had here over the 30 years up to the cease fires we'd probably be living in a depleted uranium wasteland.
I'll take quaint hobbit shire every day of the week over paranoid Gotham city.

Speaking of which...

This is going back a few years, but my Dad's cousin used to regale us with stories of what he'd do in his mischeivous youth visiting relatives in Belfast: whenever he and his friends got ahold of some firecrackers, they would set them off in the alley near a Republican hangout, then run away and hide to watch the panicky young IRA guys rush out, grab their guns from their secret caches and try to find the battle.

 

[Storm]

They may not be going away, but they could be going away to the point that we don't need them for protection.

See, I disagree with that, too.

My point was that if he's already pointing a gun at you, you're pretty much screwed.

Which I granted. My point was, if I pointed one at him first, he might just go away.

 

[Magic Man]

See, I disagree with that, too.

OK.

Which I granted. My point was, if I pointed one at him first, he might just go away.

Sure, but then he might not. I'm just saying how often does this come up? How often would it be helpful to have a gun? And how often is it harmful when people have guns?

 

[Storm]

Sure, but then he might not.

In which case, I'd already have the upper hand.

I'm just saying how often does this come up?

It only takes once.

I wonder how much of this is simple differing experiences. I've been the target of violent crime, some of them random. I live in a neighborhood full of thugs; I've been followed and harrassed and don't feel safe at all. My neighbor had a home invasion not that long ago. I'd feel a hell of a lot safer with a shotgun under my bed.

How often would it be helpful to have a gun?

Whether I ever had to use it or not, always. Just knowing I had it if I needed it would be helpful.

And how often is it harmful when people have guns?

In my experience, not at all. As I said, every last one of the many gun owners I've known were perfectly responsible.

But that's not really the issue. It's not freedom that requires justification, but restrictions on it.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Sure, but then he might not. I'm just saying how often does this come up? How often would it be helpful to have a gun? And how often is it harmful when people have guns?

I suspect that there are more guns in the hands of hunters and collectors than there are in the hands of people who are committing violent crimes.

 

[Magic Man]

It only takes once.

I wonder how much of this is simple differing experiences. I've been the target of violent crime, some of them random. I live in a neighborhood full of thugs; I've been followed and harrassed and don't feel safe at all. My neighbor had a home invasion not that long ago. I'd feel a hell of a lot safer with a shotgun under my bed.

I live in Baltimore. We have the highest murder rate in the country, and mostly it's due to guns and the drug trade. I live outside of the city, but I have friends in the city, and I used to work in the heart of the city, in the worst areas (because I was in pest control).

Whether I ever had to use it or not, always. Just knowing I had it if I needed it would be helpful.

It wouldn't be helpful. I might make you feel better, but that's not quite helpful in regards to what I'm saying. Basically, how often would your owning a gun be the difference between something bad happening to you and not?

In my experience, not at all. As I said, every last one of the many gun owners I've known were perfectly responsible.

But that's not really the issue. It's not freedom that requires justification, but restrictions on it.

What I'm saying is how often is it helpful to have a gun (for the general population), and how often is it harmful? How many deaths or injuries are caused by guns, and how many times are they the difference between a violent crime happening and not happening?

 

[Magic Man]

I suspect that there are more guns in the hands of hunters and collectors than there are in the hands of people who are committing violent crimes.

I don't know. If so, it's not by much. Also, this isn't really an argument for handgun ownership.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I wonder how much of this is simple differing experiences. I've been the target of violent crime, some of them random. I live in a neighborhood full of thugs; I've been followed and harrassed and don't feel safe at all. My neighbor had a home invasion not that long ago. I'd feel a hell of a lot safer with a shotgun under my bed.

I understand this motivation, but I also recognize that if you want to be able to use a gun as an actually effective self-defense weapon, you need to forget a lot of the normal precautions people use to store guns safely.

You said that you'd feel safer with a shotgun; if your home ever was invaded, in the time from when you first noticed that it was happening until you were actually confronted, would you have time to unlock the gun cabinet, unlock the ammo box, unlock the trigger lock, load the shotgun and ready yourself to fire? Probably not.

This means that if you want to actually use it in a home invasion, you'd have to cut corners. Maybe you'd leave it loaded. Maybe you'd leave it unsecured under your bed. Maybe both. Would you feel safer with a loaded, unlocked shotgun in your house? At that point, statistically speaking, the shotgun would probably represent a bigger threat to your safety than home invaders would.

 

[LuisDantas]

Our system is not set up to prevent violence, it leaves that to the citizen. The right to bear arms is an integral part of that.

How do you feel about other governments? Most of them are either not very commendable or not as supportive of the right to have fireguns.

Why do you think that is so?

 

[Revoltingest]

I understand this motivation, but I also recognize that if you want to be able to use a gun as an actually effective self-defense weapon, you need to forget a lot of the normal precautions people use to store guns safely.

You said that you'd feel safer with a shotgun; if your home ever was invaded, in the time from when you first noticed that it was happening until you were actually confronted, would you have time to unlock the gun cabinet, unlock the ammo box, unlock the trigger lock, load the shotgun and ready yourself to fire? Probably not.

This means that if you want to actually use it in a home invasion, you'd have to cut corners. Maybe you'd leave it loaded. Maybe you'd leave it unsecured under your bed. Maybe both. Would you feel safer with a loaded, unlocked shotgun in your house? At that point, statistically speaking, the shotgun would probably represent a bigger threat to your safety than home invaders would.

There's a better approach. I store my handguns (not a fan of shotguns) loaded (chamber empty) in a rapid access safe. The combination
lock is such that it can be operated in the dark & is extremely resistant to surreptitious entry. It does require frequent use, so that
unlocking it is second nature when under stress. I use one by Amsec. Such safes are also available for long guns. Trigger locks are a
waste, since any time I'm not carrying my handgun, it should be in a safe so it can't be stolen. No need to lock the trigger there.

I'd give little credence to statistics regarding choice of gun. Every person has different needs & capabilities. It's a decision which requires
much thought & care. Not everyone can handle a pistol effectively, so a shotgun can a better alternative. It also has a greater likelihood of
defusing a threat without even firing a shot, since they're big & mechanically noisy. Avoiding the need to shoot is always good.

 

[Storm]

It wouldn't be helpful. I might make you feel better, but that's not quite helpful in regards to what I'm saying. Basically, how often would your owning a gun be the difference between something bad happening to you and not?

Well, like I said, it only takes once.

What I'm saying is how often is it helpful to have a gun (for the general population), and how often is it harmful? How many deaths or injuries are caused by guns, and how many times are they the difference between a violent crime happening and not happening?

We'll have no way of knowing that until studies are done of responsible gun owners, too.

I mean, we've all heard the statistics on crime and accidents. But does anyone know how many law-abiding people own a firearm and never have cause to regret it?

 

[Storm]

How do you feel about other governments?

Honestly, I don't know enough about them.

Most of them are either not very commendable or not as supportive of the right to have fireguns.

Why do you think that is so?

Kneejerk response: "It's a lot easier to pacify a country when its citizens can't shoot back." Rather cynical, I know.

With more consideration, I think a lot of countries don't have our issues, or the opinion that bearing arms is a reasonable freedom.

 

[Revoltingest]

We'll have no way of knowing that until studies are done of responsible gun owners, too.

I mean, we've all heard the statistics on crime and accidents. But does anyone know how many law-abiding people own a firearm and never have cause to regret it?

Gary Kleck has done such research.
Here is a list of his papers.
Search Example Essays on Gary Kleck

 

[Storm]

Gary Kleck has done such research.
Here is a list of his papers.
Search Example Essays on Gary Kleck

Thanks.

ETA: Aw, you have to be a member to actually read them.

 

[LuisDantas]

There's the argument that with less guns, it is easier for the police to keep track of illegal ones. To say nothing of violent passional crimes, accidental misfires and school shootings (or have they stopped? Haven't heard of them for a while now).

I recognize that psychologically it is hard to avoid the appeal of being empower by a firearm, and that in some circunstances it is not reasonable to refuse them. They have their place.

I'm just not convinced that it is for the best that they are so widely available in the USA. To some degree, the very ease of access encourages their use and presses criminals in using them more often and with more boldness. I don't think it is a good thing to banalize the use and possession of firearms in front of youngsters, either. They are inherently violent tools and it is sad that they are such a common possession.

Of course, it is difficult to gauge such things in any reliable way.

 

[sandandfoam]

Kneejerk response: "It's a lot easier to pacify a country when its citizens can't shoot back." Rather cynical, I know.

With more consideration, I think a lot of countries don't have our issues, or the opinion that bearing arms is a reasonable freedom.

The Republic of Ireland took on the IRA with an unarmed police force.
The RoI came out on top.