Halal & Kosher meat must be banned and stunning the animal before slaughter must be mandatory India

[Terese]

Feeding dogs and cats vegetarian diet is against their nature and kind of oppression.
No one will stay alive, the chicken will eventually die whether you eat it or not.

I don't disagree with you.

 

[FearGod]

Then it seems cowardly to me.
If I want to eat meat, I'll have to catch the animal, hear it's screams myself and then slit it's throat. I'll have to look into eye and see myself hurting a living being who's weak and defenseless, which is the greatest crime in my mind.
Not to mention, I'll never be the same again.
Not comfortable with others murdering for my sensual pleasures.

If you were walking in the countryside and suddenly a dog run towards you and you can't escape
but to shot him at once.

Will you shot him or you don't like to harm the dog?

 

[Subhankar Zac]

If you were walking in the countryside and suddenly a dog run towards you and you can't escape
but to shot him at once.

Will you shot him or you don't like to harm the dog?

There's a difference in self defense and outright killing. And I don't think I'll kill the dog.
I'll just pick up a stone and try to throw at it.
If it still comes at Me, I'll throw it near it to scare it off.
If it still comes towards me, I'll strike a stone on it or make a loud scream to shoo it off.
Shooting will be a last resort.... Still it's hardly the same thing.

 

[FearGod]

There's a difference in self defense and outright killing. And I don't think I'll kill the dog.
I'll just pick up a stone and try to throw at it.
If it still comes at Me, I'll throw it near it to scare it off.
If it still comes towards me, I'll strike a stone on it or make a loud scream to shoo it off.
Shooting will be a last resort.... Still it's hardly the same thing.

If there's no time to think and no stones around you and the dog is so closed to you, won't you shoot him?

 

[Subhankar Zac]

If there's no time to think and no stones around you and the dog is so closed to you, won't you shoot him?

You still seem confused about SELF DEFENSE and KILLING WEAK CREATURES

 

[FearGod]

You still seem confused about SELF DEFENSE and KILLING WEAK CREATURES

And you don't know the nature.

 

[Subhankar Zac]

And you don't know the nature.

No one knows nature..we know how nature is on earth.
Nature will turn against humans as well with the increased greenhouse house effect, cities in the coastal areas will sink, weather patterns will change and if it still continues, water currents will stop permanently wiping out 70-90% of lives on earth within a few years

I guess that would mean I'll eat humans ss well?
It's based on nature that airplanes crashes, buildings crumble and disasters strikes! I guess you like all these scenarios then.

 

[FearGod]

No one knows nature..we know how nature is on earth.
Nature will turn against humans as well with the increased greenhouse house effect, cities in the coastal areas will sink, weather patterns will change and if it still continues, water currents will stop permanently wiping out 70-90% of lives on earth within a few years

I guess that would mean I'll eat humans ss well?
It's based on nature that airplanes crashes, buildings crumble and disasters strikes! I guess you like all these scenarios then.

True, the reality is "we can't go against nature"

 

[Flankerl]

Then why such drama over the people killed in Syria then?

Like I said, let's try that on a human first and see the results.

So you are saying that if you behead someone/something and the body moves afterwards its still alive.

Congratulations, that's stupid.


FWIW I am against slaughtering by people who haven't learned how to do it.

Were you thinking of any forum posters in particular?

Please don't give me any ideas.

Murder to me too, guess that is why i prefer vegetarianism

Except of course that Plants feel when they are eaten or "harvested" and are kinda against it.

 

[Tomorrows_Child]

Why don't you share the link to your source then?

Is hypocrisy embedded in Islam or something?
No, we don't! Actually we don't!
Will Saudi provide pork and alcohol? Will UAE legalize LGBT laws? Will said I let Hindus celebrate openly in public?
Islamic nations have no minority rights but minority Muslims want special provisions for themselves.
Also, understand the difference between Hinduism, buddhism and Taoism if you don't believe that you'll be sent to hell for googling other religions

India shouldn't have to let Muslims and others eat what they wish. It's their comparative tolerance. And unless Saudi is making pork, gay marriage, atheism and alcohol legal, try not to ask for rights for other Muslims.

You sound very angry, why is that? Surely, as you belong to a superior way of life than the Muslims you despise, you should have more compassion?

Anyway, I will answer your questions.

You want a source to very common medical knowledge? Why don't you just google the function of the carotid artery and the circle of willis and how that relates to the brain? Why is that hypocritical for you?

Now, in terms of Saudia Arabia, I'm not sure if they allow pork but alcohol is certainly allowed for non-Muslims in particular establishments. Just go to Riyadh and visit the numerous British or American living quarters. In fact, I have non muslim students at my university, who due to their parents working at oil facilities in the country, were educated in Saudia Arabia and frequented establishments with alcohol and even nightclubs. So that just completely disputes your claims. Again, simple reading on google would help.

Now calm down a little and use your intellect. It helps, I promise.

 

[Tomorrows_Child]

False statements for personal Islamic bias as most in Europe are doing today, after what occured in France and Belgium.
It is the most inhumane way to kill anyone and those who doubt it can try it in themselves.

If someone was contemplating suicide, cutting the carotid artery would actually be a great and painless way to go. If done correctly of course.

Now, why are you stating research carried out by scientists, to be false? Have you done counter studies? Analysed those studies? Used similar methods? Do you even know what the study was?

This all leads onto a greater statement, why do you hate muslims so much?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

When ego is prominent in one's mind, he stops seeing the common life force in all beings.
Out of ego, he sees himself as the supreme and out of assistance, other beings who look like him as well.
It's murder if it's human, it's food if it's something else.
Yes. It's true that what is born will surely die.
But that doesn't mean become inhuman towards them.
When plants are torn off from their roots, they feel the pain too. As long as one considers himself the body and not realize his true self, he will forever be in pain.
But if there's an option to make to show gratitude towards a being whos giving us it's life, the least we can do is make its journey less painful.
As humans.
Death is inevitable but suffering isn't. We cannot stop the pathogens in our blood being killed by our WBCs.
But we can be mindful of our actions... That's what the bottomline of Buddhism is.

What's with the passive aggressive insults? You apparently view yourself as being spiritually superior. Typical. How's that ego working out for you?

 

[Subhankar Zac]

If someone was contemplating suicide, cutting the carotid artery would actually be a great and painless way to go. If done correctly of course.

Now, why are you stating research carried out by scientists, to be false? Have you done counter studies? Analysed those studies? Used similar methods? Do you even know what the study was?

This all leads onto a greater statement, why do you hate muslims so much?

Apparently all animals contemplate suicide now huh?
Because no actual scientist will call insane methods as humane, unless he's a Muslim.
I can show you research that say that such methods are indeed painful.
And everyone hates Muslims if they are questioned on their beliefs, on their past (which is false if you say that Islam spread through violence) and if verses from the Quran that speaks of striking necks are called out.
Question Islam, and you hate them.
Question other religions, it's just curiosity.

 

[Subhankar Zac]

You sound very angry, why is that? Surely, as you belong to a superior way of life than the Muslims you despise, you should have more compassion?

Anyway, I will answer your questions.

You want a source to very common medical knowledge? Why don't you just google the function of the carotid artery and the circle of willis and how that relates to the brain? Why is that hypocritical for you?

Now, in terms of Saudia Arabia, I'm not sure if they allow pork but alcohol is certainly allowed for non-Muslims in particular establishments. Just go to Riyadh and visit the numerous British or American living quarters. In fact, I have non muslim students at my university, who due to their parents working at oil facilities in the country, were educated in Saudia Arabia and frequented establishments with alcohol and even nightclubs. So that just completely disputes your claims. Again, simple reading on google would help.

Now calm down a little and use your intellect. It helps, I promise.

Alcohol is allowed in Saudi Arabia!
But yes, being a Muslim, you have to deny all the facts of the world, so why not this one too?


Here's what the UK government warns citizens of Saudi
Local laws and customs
Saudi Arabia is a Muslim country in which Islamic law is strictly enforced. You should respect local traditions, customs, laws and religions at all times and be aware of your actions to ensure that they do not offend, especially during the holy month of Ramadan or if you intend to visit religious areas. It is forbidden to eat, drink or smoke in public during daylight hours during the month of Ramadan. The law is strictly enforced.

In 2016, the holy month of Ramadan is expected to start on 6 June and finish on 5 July. See Travelling during Ramadan

The public practice of any form of religion other than Islam is illegal; as is an intention to convert others. However, the Saudi authorities accept the private practice of religions other than Islam, and you can bring a Bible into the country as long as it is for your personal use. Importing larger quantities than this can carry severe penalties.

Islamic codes of behaviour and dress are strictly enforced. Women should wear conservative, loose-fitting clothes as well as a full length cloak (abaya) and a headscarf. Men should not wear shorts in public.

It is illegal for women to drive.

Homosexual acts and adultery are illegal and can be subject to severe sanctions.

Penalties for the possession of, or trade in alcohol are severe. Both result in prison sentences. Do not arrive in Saudi Arabia under the influence of alcohol.

If you bring medication with you, carry a doctor’s prescription. Importing pork products is forbidden. The possession of pornographic material, or of illustrations of scantily dressed people, especially women, is prohibited. Electronic devices may be screened by customs officials on arrival and departure.

The punishment for smuggling drugs includes the death penalty.

Photographing government buildings, military installations, and palaces is not allowed. You should avoid photographing local people.

It is illegal to hold two passports in Saudi Arabia. Second passports will be confiscated by the immigration authorities if they are discovered.

You should carry a photocopy of your passport for identification. Make sure you have included emergency contact details.

The Saudi legal system differs in many ways from the UK. Suspects can be held without charge and are not always allowed quick access to legal representation. The Saudi authorities have detained witnesses and victims of crimes. If you need consular assistance, British Embassy staff will try to visit you as soon as they are aware of the case, but in some instances Embassy staff have not been permitted to do so immediately or have had access limited.

Anyone involved in a commercial dispute with a Saudi company or individual may be prevented from leaving the country pending resolution of the dispute. Government bodies often retain passports for official purposes; sponsors also sometimes retain passports, although this is illegal.

https://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice/saudi-arabia/local-laws-and-customs

Let me know if you wish to troll more.

 

[Tomorrows_Child]

Apparently all animals contemplate suicide now huh?
Because no actual scientist will call insane methods as humane, unless he's a Muslim.
I can show you research that say that such methods are indeed painful.
And everyone hates Muslims if they are questioned on their beliefs, on their past (which is false if you say that Islam spread through violence) and if verses from the Quran that speaks of striking necks are called out.
Question Islam, and you hate them.
Question other religions, it's just curiosity.

I've been questioned about Islam a lot on here and have rarely said what I said to you because you are posting some ridiculous stuff, avoiding my factual responses and speaking through emotions, not intellect.

Now there may well be some pain involved but it would be instantaneous, like a sharp paper cut. You feel the initial pain but it doesn't stay with you (unless you have water on it or something). Nothing can ever be 100% painless. But the halal method is the best when it comes to reducing pain and stress to the animal.

Here is what the study did:

They took a set of cattle, one which was to be slaughtered in the tradition european method and the other via the halal method. They inserted electrodes into the portions of the brain which measures emotions, pain, stress and so on. Gave the cattle time to heal and then had them sent back to the farm. These electrodes carried on taking measurements throughout their upkeep and then subsequent slaughter.

The research found that there was less pain and stress involved, by looking at the data from the electrodes, in halal slaughter than non halal slaughter (which included stunning the animal, a severely painful act in itself). Now, in your opening post, you make it clear that it is halal/kosher slaughter that should be banned but the science shows it is more humane than the alternative.

Now, if you want all meat slaughter because of your religious obligations to cows ets to be banned, that is fine but it can't just be aimed at halal/kosher meat.

Finally, why do you think the scientist is a muslim? Who told you that? It was carried out in Germany, there may have been muslim scientists but there were likely many non muslim scientists involved in the study.

And if we can't eat meat (are bodies are designed/have evolved to be best used with a balanced diet of meats and veg) then what can we eat? Did you know plants are also living creatures?

 

[Tomorrows_Child]

Alcohol is allowed in Saudi Arabia!
But yes, being a Muslim, you have to deny all the facts of the world, so why not this one too?


Here's what the UK government warns citizens of Saudi
Local laws and customs
Saudi Arabia is a Muslim country in which Islamic law is strictly enforced. You should respect local traditions, customs, laws and religions at all times and be aware of your actions to ensure that they do not offend, especially during the holy month of Ramadan or if you intend to visit religious areas. It is forbidden to eat, drink or smoke in public during daylight hours during the month of Ramadan. The law is strictly enforced.

In 2016, the holy month of Ramadan is expected to start on 6 June and finish on 5 July. See Travelling during Ramadan

The public practice of any form of religion other than Islam is illegal; as is an intention to convert others. However, the Saudi authorities accept the private practice of religions other than Islam, and you can bring a Bible into the country as long as it is for your personal use. Importing larger quantities than this can carry severe penalties.

Islamic codes of behaviour and dress are strictly enforced. Women should wear conservative, loose-fitting clothes as well as a full length cloak (abaya) and a headscarf. Men should not wear shorts in public.

It is illegal for women to drive.

Homosexual acts and adultery are illegal and can be subject to severe sanctions.

Penalties for the possession of, or trade in alcohol are severe. Both result in prison sentences. Do not arrive in Saudi Arabia under the influence of alcohol.

If you bring medication with you, carry a doctor’s prescription. Importing pork products is forbidden. The possession of pornographic material, or of illustrations of scantily dressed people, especially women, is prohibited. Electronic devices may be screened by customs officials on arrival and departure.

The punishment for smuggling drugs includes the death penalty.

Photographing government buildings, military installations, and palaces is not allowed. You should avoid photographing local people.

It is illegal to hold two passports in Saudi Arabia. Second passports will be confiscated by the immigration authorities if they are discovered.

You should carry a photocopy of your passport for identification. Make sure you have included emergency contact details.

The Saudi legal system differs in many ways from the UK. Suspects can be held without charge and are not always allowed quick access to legal representation. The Saudi authorities have detained witnesses and victims of crimes. If you need consular assistance, British Embassy staff will try to visit you as soon as they are aware of the case, but in some instances Embassy staff have not been permitted to do so immediately or have had access limited.

Anyone involved in a commercial dispute with a Saudi company or individual may be prevented from leaving the country pending resolution of the dispute. Government bodies often retain passports for official purposes; sponsors also sometimes retain passports, although this is illegal.

https://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice/saudi-arabia/local-laws-and-customs

Let me know if you wish to troll more.

I'm going to keep with the food/drinks angle, as that is what this discussion is about (if you want to expand it, start another thread).

Now, this is clearly talking about Ramadan, whether you are muslims or otherwise, in Saudi Arabia (it isn't the same case in other some muslim countries) eating and drinking in public is banned. That applies to muslims and non muslims but if you are in your own home, you can eat and drink as much as you like. Iti is ab it stricter than most other muslim countries but it's not impossible to live their during Ramadan, as long as you don't eat in public.

In terms of alcohol, I repeat, you can buy it, drink it, or do whatever you want with it within the compounds specifically built for foreign workers and so on. They have poolside bars and everything. It's just not to be paraded around in public. That's a fair concession imo.

So what's the problem?

 

[Subhankar Zac]

I've been questioned about Islam a lot on here and have rarely said what I said to you because you are posting some ridiculous stuff, avoiding my factual responses and speaking through emotions, not intellect.

Now there may well be some pain involved but it would be instantaneous, like a sharp paper cut. You feel the initial pain but it doesn't stay with you (unless you have water on it or something). Nothing can ever be 100% painless. But the halal method is the best when it comes to reducing pain and stress to the animal.

Here is what the study did:

They took a set of cattle, one which was to be slaughtered in the tradition european method and the other via the halal method. They inserted electrodes into the portions of the brain which measures emotions, pain, stress and so on. Gave the cattle time to heal and then had them sent back to the farm. These electrodes carried on taking measurements throughout their upkeep and then subsequent slaughter.

The research found that there was less pain and stress involved, by looking at the data from the electrodes, in halal slaughter than non halal slaughter (which included stunning the animal, a severely painful act in itself). Now, in your opening post, you make it clear that it is halal/kosher slaughter that should be banned but the science shows it is more humane than the alternative.

Now, if you want all meat slaughter because of your religious obligations to cows ets to be banned, that is fine but it can't just be aimed at halal/kosher meat.

Finally, why do you think the scientist is a muslim? Who told you that? It was carried out in Germany, there may have been muslim scientists but there were likely many non muslim scientists involved in the study.

And if we can't eat meat (are bodies are designed/have evolved to be best used with a balanced diet of meats and veg) then what can we eat? Did you know plants are also living creatures?

Dr Craig Johnson and his colleagues at New Zealand's Massey University reproduced the Jewish and Islamic methods of slaughter in calves. The calves were first anaesthetised so although their pain responses could be detected, they wouldn't actually feel anything. They were then subjected to a neck incision. A pain response was detected for up to two minutes following the cut, although calves normally fall unconscious after 10 to 30 seconds.

The team then stunned the calves five seconds after cutting their throats: the pain signal detected by electroencephalography ceased immediately.


Johnson told the New Scientist he thought this work was "the best evidence yet that [ritual slaughter] is painful". However, he observed that the religious community "is adamant animals don't experience any pain so the results might surprise them".

 

[Subhankar Zac]

I'm going to keep with the food/drinks angle, as that is what this discussion is about (if you want to expand it, start another thread).

Now, this is clearly talking about Ramadan, whether you are muslims or otherwise, in Saudi Arabia (it isn't the same case in other some muslim countries) eating and drinking in public is banned. That applies to muslims and non muslims but if you are in your own home, you can eat and drink as much as you like. Iti is ab it stricter than most other muslim countries but it's not impossible to live their during Ramadan, as long as you don't eat in public.

In terms of alcohol, I repeat, you can buy it, drink it, or do whatever you want with it within the compounds specifically built for foreign workers and so on. They have poolside bars and everything. It's just not to be paraded around in public. That's a fair concession imo.

So what's the problem?

Wow! Just wow!
You continue to outdo yourself.

1. Let Muslims eat beef and halal meat in India.
2. Islamic killings are the best thing India deserved.
3. Muslims can violate India's laws but other people shouldn't violate Islamic laws.
4. No matter what research says, Islam knows best, including killing animals with pain.
Because it's Islam!

 

[Tomorrows_Child]

Dr Craig Johnson and his colleagues at New Zealand's Massey University reproduced the Jewish and Islamic methods of slaughter in calves. The calves were first anaesthetised so although their pain responses could be detected, they wouldn't actually feel anything. They were then subjected to a neck incision. A pain response was detected for up to two minutes following the cut, although calves normally fall unconscious after 10 to 30 seconds.

The team then stunned the calves five seconds after cutting their throats: the pain signal detected by electroencephalography ceased immediately.


Johnson told the New Scientist he thought this work was "the best evidence yet that [ritual slaughter] is painful". However, he observed that the religious community "is adamant animals don't experience any pain so the results might surprise them".

This has been refuted by subsequent findings and research and isn't Dr Johnson associated with a certain charity which aims to promote a certain idea? You might want to look that up. He is clearly biased in his views, because of his association with this particular group.

And the the part you quoted states that the animals were unconscious pretty quickly, which means, even if their brain was active for a limited period of time, they could not "feel" the pain. Again, basic medical knowledge would help with that.

And I find it curious that he would fail to mention the pain associated with stunning the animal, which has been looked into by some. Then again, it's probably nt mentioned because he represents a group that promotes stunnings.

If you must present and critically evaluate a piece of research, it would be best to quote something where the scientist does not have a vested interest in.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Wow! Just wow!
You continue to outdo yourself.

1. Let Muslims eat beef and halal meat in India.
2. Islamic killings are the best thing India deserved.
3. Muslims can violate India's laws but other people shouldn't violate Islamic laws.
4. No matter what research says, Islam knows best, including killing animals with pain.
Because it's Islam!

Wtf. He didn't say any of that.