Harsh Truth: If Intelligent Design is Untestable . . .

[jonathan180iq]

So is it correct to say that now you were created as human being in your mother's womb but as species you were descended from Apes.

Yes.

You were created from the act of your parent's getting it on.
Your species evolved over time from a common ape-like ancestor through naturally selective processes.

 

[Kuzcotopia]

I wonder....
What predictions does ID make?
Could we test them?

I think this is the core issue here.

I am too lazy to find it, but @shawn001 Posted a great video of the comparison between theist and naturalist positions, from Sean Carroll. It highlights what each philosophy wold expect prior to learning about the universe itself. Maybe he could post it here too.

This debate seems to always get framed incorrectly. Evolution has to be "proved" beyond all doubt, but ID as a credible theory never gets discussion.

Beyond the bible told me so, there isn't much there to prove, so that framing just doesn't get far.

I'd still like the Original Poster to actually lay out what he believes, but I suspect there's far too little there that will hold up to scrutiny. Best to play it safe with logic games instead, and keep the framing of the discussion on doubting evolution.

 

[jonathan180iq]

Oh, sorry i didn't realize that you're allergic to the word creation, so we can use develop instead

If it's being avoided it's only because you are loading the word "creation" with the concept of deitic involvement.

He's no more allergic to the term "creation" than you are to the word "development". The moment of conception is the beginning of the embryonic development.

 

[FearGod]

If it's being avoided it's only because you are loading the word "creation" with the concept of deitic involvement.

He's no more allergic to the term "creation" than you are to the word "development". The moment of conception is the beginning of the embryonic development.

Does he think that God is working in the womb with his hands ?

 

[metis]

I think this is the core issue here.

I am too lazy to find it, but @shawn001 Posted a great video of the comparison between theist and naturalist positions, from Sean Carroll. It highlights what each philosophy wold expect prior to learning about the universe itself. Maybe he could post it here too.

This debate seems to always get framed incorrectly. Evolution has to be "proved" beyond all doubt, but ID as a credible theory never gets discussion.

Beyond the bible told me so, there isn't much there to prove, so that framing just doesn't get far.

I'd still like the Original Poster to actually lay out what he believes, but I suspect there's far too little there that will hold up to scrutiny. Best to play it safe with logic games instead, and keep the framing of the discussion on doubting evolution.

Yes, and not only is "intelligent design" not a scientific theory, it's not even a scientific hypothesis. In order to have the latter, there must be at least some evidence it could possibly be true, but in this case there's simply not.

For example, if I say "The world's coming to an end tomorrow", and someone asks me what evidence I have, and I respond back "It's just a feeling I have", that's not a scientific hypothesis.

The point is that there's no scientific evidence for a theistic causation. Therefore, if one believes in "intelligent design", it's not a scientific statement but is a reflection of one's theological and/or personal belief.

 

[FearGod]

Yes, and not only is "intelligent design" not a scientific theory, it's not even a scientific hypothesis. In order to have the latter, there must be at least some evidence it could possibly be true, but in this case there's simply not.

For example, if I say "The world's coming to an end tomorrow", and someone asks me what evidence I have, and I respond back "It's just a feeling I have", that's not a scientific hypothesis.

The point is that there's no scientific evidence for a theistic causation. Therefore, if one believes in "intelligent design", it's not a scientific statement but is a reflection of one's theological and/or personal belief.

The born of the state of Israel is a strong evidence according to my belief, it is promised by God to happen and it happened, maybe by chance as random mutation is.

 

[metis]

The born of the state of Israel is a strong evidence according to my belief, it is promised by God to happen and it happened, maybe by chance as random mutation is.

I don't make such assumptions because they are, after all, just assumptions. I'm certainly not one who believes that God meddles in everything.

 

[leibowde84]

Oh, sorry i didn't realize that you're allergic to the word creation, so we can use develop instead


develop - make something new, such as a product or a mental or artistic creation; "Her company developed a new kind of building material that withstands all kinds of weather"; "They developed a new technique"
evolve, germinate, develop - work out; "We have developed a new theory of evolution"
build - give form to, according to a plan; "build a modern nation"; "build a million-dollar business"
create - bring into existence; "The company was created 25 years ago"; "He created a new movement in painting"
create by mental act, create mentally - create mentally and abstractly rather than with one's hands

develop - definition of develop by The Free Dictionary

I understand that English is a funny language where certain words have different meanings in different contexts. When speaking of fetal development, the word develop is defined as follows.

de·vel·op
dəˈveləp/
verb

1. 1.
   grow or cause to grow and become more mature, advanced, or elaborate.
   "motion pictures developed into mass entertainment"
   synonyms: grow, expand, spread

 

[leibowde84]

Oh, sorry i didn't realize that you're allergic to the word creation, so we can use develop instead


develop - make something new, such as a product or a mental or artistic creation; "Her company developed a new kind of building material that withstands all kinds of weather"; "They developed a new technique"
evolve, germinate, develop - work out; "We have developed a new theory of evolution"
build - give form to, according to a plan; "build a modern nation"; "build a million-dollar business"
create - bring into existence; "The company was created 25 years ago"; "He created a new movement in painting"
create by mental act, create mentally - create mentally and abstractly rather than with one's hands

develop - definition of develop by The Free Dictionary

Since the womb is inanimate, it cannot develop anything. The fetus merely develops in the womb.

 

[David M]

Yes i know endless excuses.

Facts. People of the period did know what a developing fetus looked like because they saw them.

 

[leibowde84]

Oh, sorry i didn't realize that you're allergic to the word creation, so we can use develop instead


develop - make something new, such as a product or a mental or artistic creation; "Her company developed a new kind of building material that withstands all kinds of weather"; "They developed a new technique"
evolve, germinate, develop - work out; "We have developed a new theory of evolution"
build - give form to, according to a plan; "build a modern nation"; "build a million-dollar business"
create - bring into existence; "The company was created 25 years ago"; "He created a new movement in painting"
create by mental act, create mentally - create mentally and abstractly rather than with one's hands

develop - definition of develop by The Free Dictionary

"create - bring into existence; "The company was created 25 years ago"; "He created a new movement in painting"
- This is why you are incorrect in using the term "create", which, btw, I am not afraid of. I just think we should use it appropriately. In this instance, the womb does not bring anything into existence. The fetus merely develops in the womb. By "develop" I am referring to the meaning included in my previous post.

 

[Nietzsche]

So is it correct to say that now you were created as human being in your mother's womb but as species you were descended from Apes.

Sort of. Think of it like a family tree. Actually, I have an analogy here that might actually work for both of us;

If you go far enough back in your family tree, back before Islam was founded, you're going to find a non-Muslim as your great-great-ect grandfather. Go even further and you're going to find a geat-great-ect grandfather who's not even Abrahamic, because he either existed before the Abrahamic faiths or at the least before the Abrahamic faiths spread to his corner of the world. Religiously, they are radically different from you. But they're still your family after all is said & done. They were different & came before you. But you're still their grandson. However, if you were to pick a point in that line and follow it down another path(say, a brother or sister one of your great-great-something grandparents) they're going to be pretty different from you, especially if you follow it down to the modern day. Both of you will be very different from the other, but those differences don't change your ancestry. You both share atleast one Common Ancestor.

That is our relation to the other still-living apes. We share a great-grandfather. That is how all animals are, you just have to keep going further & further back until you find the point of the branch.

 

[leibowde84]

Does he think that God is working in the womb with his hands ?

Of course not. A fetus develops. The fetus is doing the developing. The womb is the environment where development occurs. No God necessary in this instance.

 

[David M]

And whale sharks have the same "fingers" as a whale....but the tail of a shark....go figure!

What were the dorsal fins before they became dorsal fins I wonder?

That is an image of the structure of a whale fin (Do whales have bones and other whale questions - Dr. Galapagos tells us about whales.

The fins of a Whale Shark do not have any bones but are supported by internal rays called ceratotrichia (and they do grow big, I saw a 10m+ Whale Shark during a dive off Australia).

 

[Quagmire]

The excuses are even more flimsy than I expected. So many bald assertions. So many non-sequiturs. So many assaults on logic.

If you'll excuse me, I think I'll go throw up now.

That would be an improvement over everything else you've provided in this thread so far.

 

[philbo]

I wonder....
What predictions does ID make?
Could we test them?

ID predicts that everything will be exactly like we can see it

Oh, look! Everything is exactly like we see it, therefore it must be true

(That's got to be right, right?)

 

[David M]

When you look at the three spine stickleback fish, was there ever a time when the limited experiments they performed ever produced a different creature altogether? If they didn't, then it is pure speculation about what happened over the millions of years that preceded their experiments.

Did the fruit flies become anything other than fruit flies? If not, then again the scientists are filling in the gaps with educated guesses....not facts. Their assumptions, no matter how plausible they sound, are not facts.

If they had in either of those cases than that would be support for creation and evidence against evolution. Nowhere doe evolution predict that a creature will give birth to a radically different creature, its a process of relatively small changes adding up over time to make a large difference from the ancestor.

 

[FearGod]

I understand that English is a funny language where certain words have different meanings in different contexts. When speaking of fetal development, the word develop is defined as follows.

de·vel·op
dəˈveləp/
verb

1. 1.
   grow or cause to grow and become more mature, advanced, or elaborate.
   "motion pictures developed into mass entertainment"
   synonyms: grow, expand, spread

Creation more correct as it deals with nature whereas to develop is an action done by intervention.

 

[FearGod]

I don't make such assumptions because they are, after all, just assumptions. I'm certainly not one who believes that God meddles in everything.

But it happened, maybe just by a chance.

 

[FearGod]

Since the womb is inanimate, it cannot develop anything. The fetus merely develops in the womb.

True, thats why the best word is creation, because develop means there is intervention.