Harsh Truth: If Intelligent Design is Untestable . . .

[Mohammad Nur Syamsu]

So one must reject the existence of love to accept subjectivity? I disagree.

You misrepresent creationism.

I have not denied that the word 'evil' exists. I am saying that to say something or someone is evil is a subjective claim.

And you were then saying the opinon was objective, yet this objectivity did not refer to the fact that the word "evil" exists. So what you were talking about, nobody knows, including yourself don't know.

 

[Kirran]

You misrepresent creationism.

I didn't address it.

And you were then saying the opinon was objective, yet this objectivity did not refer to the fact that the word "evil" exists.

I didn't say opinion is objective. I said its existence is objective.

I didn't talk about the existence of the word evil. We can tell it exists, because we are using it.

 

[Mohammad Nur Syamsu]

I didn't address it.

I didn't say opinion is objective. I said its existence is objective.

I didn't talk about the existence of the word evil. We can tell it exists, because we are using it.

You say it is objective, then I say you must be referring to the objective existence of the word evil, but you say that's not what objective fact you are referring to. So what objective fact are you referring to then?

And of course I know you are fantasizing the solution to how it works, while you are writing your postings.

 

[Kirran]

You say it is objective, then I say you must be referring to the objective existence of the word evil, but you say that's not what objective fact you are referring to. So what objective fact are you referring to then?

Yes, I agree, the existence of the word 'evil' is objectively true.

To say 'Kirran is evil' is subjective, because it is opinion.

But to say 'Mohammad thinks Kirran is evil' is objective, because it is a fact.

May I ask you a question, Mohammad? - Have you ever explained your views on free will, subjectivity, creationism and National Socialism to anybody, and had them agree with them?

 

[leibowde84]

That's rejection of subjectivity in general.



Since you denied you were referring to the fact that the word "evil" objectively exists, no I do not see what you're saying.

By all means fantasize some more about how subjectivity works while you write your postings, but you have no chance of immediately coming up with a robust conceptual scheme by fantasizing in such a way. Meanwhile creationism works already for thousands of years without fail.

You said that claiming that love exists as an actuality shows a "rejection of subjectivity in general". Why do you think this? Did you erroneously think that she was saying that love was objective rather than subjective, because that isn't even close to what was claimed?

 

[Mohammad Nur Syamsu]

You said that claiming that love exists as an actuality shows a "rejection of subjectivity in general". Why do you think this? Did you erroneously think that she was saying that love was objective rather than subjective, because that isn't even close to what was claimed?

He said that "the existence of love is not a matter of opinion." That's rejection of subjectivity in general.

 

[Deathbydefault]

You say it is objective, then I say you must be referring to the objective existence of the word evil, but you say that's not what objective fact you are referring to. So what objective fact are you referring to then?

And of course I know you are fantasizing the solution to how it works, while you are writing your postings.

The word itself is there, it's a made thing in some way, that is what makes it objective.
But the word in it's self when stated in the first person is subjective.

"You're evil"
"I'm evil"
"He's evil"
"She's evil"
"Satan is evil"

All opinions.
The only thing objective about the word is that it's a word.

 

[leibowde84]

He said that "the existence of love is not a matter of opinion." That's rejection of subjectivity in general.

Right. In other words, no matter what your opinion on the subject is, love exists or the fact that love exists in the world is not a matter of opinion.

 

[Kirran]

He said that "the existence of love is not a matter of opinion." That's rejection of subjectivity in general.

No, it isn't. Do you think love exists? Love does exist, we can experience it and talk about it. But opinions are still in existence, and opinions constitute subjectivity.

 

[leibowde84]

No, it isn't. Do you think love exists? Love does exist, we can experience it and talk about it. But opinions are still in existence, and opinions constitute subjectivity.

He is confused I think. The concept of love exists as a concept in reality. This is absolutely proven by your point that we can talk about it with others. But, that is in no way claiming that love is completely subjective, in that love exists (actual love, not just the concept or linguistic term) only to the individual.

In short, he is merely putting words in your mouth in an attempt to erroneously claim that you reject subjectivity in general. After reading many of your posts over the months, I can safely say that is not the case.

 

[Kirran]

He is confused I think. The concept of love exists as a concept in reality. This is absolutely proven by your point that we can talk about it with others. But, that is in no way claiming that love is completely subjective, in that love exists (actual love, not just the concept or linguistic term) only to the individual.

In short, he is merely putting words in your mouth in an attempt to erroneously claim that you reject subjectivity in general. After reading many of your posts over the months, I can safely say that is not the case.

Well, thankyou. I'm not taking it personally, I don't think there's anybody on RF he doesn't think rejects subjectivity. I'm just trying to explain my opposing arguments.

 

[Mohammad Nur Syamsu]

Right. In other words, no matter what your opinion on the subject is, love exists or the fact that love exists in the world is not a matter of opinion.

When you throw out the existence of love from the matter of opinion category, then you have thrown out like and dislike, and basically you leave the category of matters of opinion empty.

 

[Mohammad Nur Syamsu]

Well, thankyou. I'm not taking it personally, I don't think there's anybody on RF he doesn't think rejects subjectivity. I'm just trying to explain my opposing arguments.

You mean, you are trying to fantasize some arguments. For 4 posts now you have failed to explain how an opinion is objective, besides it being subjective.

 

[leibowde84]

When you throw out the existence of love from the matter of opinion category, then you have thrown out like and dislike, and basically you leave the category of matters of opinion empty.

My point is that was never claimed. Love for someone is subjective. But, love as a concept exists objectively.

 

[Kirran]

You mean, you are trying to fantasize some arguments. For 4 posts now you have failed to explain how an opinion is objective, besides it being subjective.

An opinion isn't objective. The EXISTENCE of an opinion is subjective. You hold the opinion I am evil. That opinion is subjective, as I am sure you will agree. But the FACT that you hold that opinion is objective. Because it is true that you hold that opinion.

 

[leibowde84]

You mean, you are trying to fantasize some arguments. For 4 posts now you have failed to explain how an opinion is objective, besides it being subjective.

Maybe this will help. What opinion are you talking about? If I say I love someone or something, that is subjective. If I say that love is a beautiful thing, necessary to make a marriage work, that is referring to the objective concept of love.

 

[Kirran]

Maybe this will help. What opinion are you talking about? If I say I love someone or something, that is subjective. If I say that love is a beautiful thing, necessary to make a marriage work, that is referring to the objective concept of love.

To quibble, saying love is beautiful or necessary is subjective

 

[leibowde84]

To quibble, saying love is beautiful or necessary is subjective

But it is speaking of love as an objective reality.

 

[Kirran]

But it is speaking of love as an objective reality.

Yes. We agree love exists.

 

[Mohammad Nur Syamsu]

He is confused I think. The concept of love exists as a concept in reality. This is absolutely proven by your point that we can talk about it with others. But, that is in no way claiming that love is completely subjective, in that love exists (actual love, not just the concept or linguistic term) only to the individual.

In short, he is merely putting words in your mouth in an attempt to erroneously claim that you reject subjectivity in general. After reading many of your posts over the months, I can safely say that is not the case.

I can safely say, you both reject subjectivity in general. I explained how subjectivity works, that it means to choose about what it is that chooses, resulting in an opinion, you reject it, hence you reject subjectivity. This conceptual scheme obviously requires that the existence of love be regarded as a matter of opinion, that love is motivation of a decision, and that therefore one can only reach the conclusion it is there or not by choosing the conclusion.

So when you both agree that the existence of love is not a matter of opinion, that pretty much settles it, you reject subjectivity in general.

And then you come up with all sorts of vacuous nonsense.....