Harvard Cultural Club to host Black Mass -- such a welcoming gesture

[Drolefille]

And we are to accept that statement even though other quotes or references in the article I read says it is a consecrated host? Even though probably every black mass celebrated uses a consecrated host? Even though it is as easy as walking down an aisle to obtain a consecrated host? No one needs rob a tabernacle. Also, it is not only about the communion host. An upside down Christ on a cross on a nude woman altar is a tad provoking unto itself.

Because it's usually a big deal when someone leaves the altar without taking the host and I've seen news stories saying so. Black Masses are a lot of pomp designed initially to tweak the sensibilities of upstanding citizens and all that, but they've developed into their own religion.

And anyway: Black Mass - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Your source says "According to valid sources..." What are those sources? The only sources that mention sexual practices here are old, vague and mostly about witchhunters (and by old I mean centuries.) Oh yes and the Marquis de Sade. Not exactly modern.

They are specifically doing a reenactment which suggests to me that it's LaVey's ritual.

Black masses are held all the time and I do not read or see where any Catholics are standing nearby protesting. The fact this is done with the blessing and within the walls of a revered institution of learning is what is so disturbing. Can you imagine for one second Harvard allowing some college sanctioned club to host a sacrilege ceremony of Islam within its walls? Even Judaism or Buddhism? There would be loud protests due to the insensitivity of it all, and rightly so. But when it comes to Catholicism, joke away, blaspheme away. Catholic priests, perverted, corrupt or naïve, make for the best foils on TV and in the movies I might add as well.

Ok, so don't protest?

Satanism is a thing. You can't just wish it weren't a thing and make it go away. I've seen incredibly loud protests of the Vagina Monologues by Catholics at a Catholic university and this required the VM to relocate off campus due to funding being withheld. If someone was simply making something up off the cuff to offend Catholics, that would be one thing, this is a historical thing that was developed based on stories going back centuries. Admittedly it was to offend all Christians, however that is still a legitimate Satanic ritual. And I have no idea whether Satanism tweaks any other faith in ritual form the way they do the trappings of the Church. It speaks a lot to how much in the way of trappings the Church has/had, to be honest.

More information would probably be helpful for details. Personally, when I was Catholic, I assumed that Jesus could take care of himself. Others can disrespect the Host - but if it's really Jesus, I don't think anything can actually desecrate it. (Then again I never believed that eating a donut too soon after mass was physically harming Jesus either, so maybe I've always been a heretic.) And if they disrespect it, or Jesus, he's dealt with worse.

Complain away, or protest, or don't? I don't really have a horse in the fight. But I do sincerely doubt that every Black Mass ever -which is no where near that common as they're probably a pain the butt AND they're deliberately provocative. - actually gets a consecrated host as that requires sitting through most of a Mass and concealing the wafer in your mouth or hand for EVER.

 

[thau]

Ok, I am going to concede some of your points and admit I may be a bit too sure of some of mine.

Because it's usually a big deal when someone leaves the altar without taking the host and I've seen news stories saying so. Black Masses are a lot of pomp designed initially to tweak the sensibilities of upstanding citizens and all that, but they've developed into their own religion.

Yes, if it is detetected hanky panky at the communion service the perpetrator will be hunted down. But really it is no big trick at all to conceal a host. Nowadays they are mostly taken in two hands and many put their hands up to their mouth to consume it never seeing it actually enter. So if you want to pretend and still conceal it in your hands it is easily done. Yes, I will agree that Black Masses can be construed (and are in legitimate places like the military) as its own religion and are given some credibility. But it is the only “established” religion I know of in this country where it has the additional effect of blaspheming another major religion. So it is an affront to say the least denigrating the divinity or icons of another faith. It is the devil laughing at the Christ and the Christians.

Your source says "According to valid sources..." What are those sources? The only sources that mention sexual practices here are old, vague and mostly about witchhunters (and by old I mean centuries.) Oh yes and the Marquis de Sade. Not exactly modern.

I do not know what valid sources I am referring to, I just assumed with some confidence they exist. I take it back until I can prove otherwise. The article I read (not cited in my top post) made specific mention of sexual practices and a nude woman altar. I do not doubt that claim at this time.

Satanism is a thing. You can't just wish it weren't a thing and make it go away. I've seen incredibly loud protests of the Vagina Monologues by Catholics at a Catholic university and this required the VM to relocate off campus due to funding being withheld. If someone was simply making something up off the cuff to offend Catholics, that would be one thing, this is a historical thing that was developed based on stories going back centuries. Admittedly it was to offend all Christians, however that is still a legitimate Satanic ritual. And I have no idea whether Satanism tweaks any other faith in ritual form the way they do the trappings of the Church. It speaks a lot to how much in the way of trappings the Church has/had, to be honest.

The Catholics protesting the Vagina Monolgues were because they were hosted at Notre Dame University and other Catholic universities, which makes all the sense in the world why they would protest at those venues. I do not know of any reports where Satanism bothers with any sacrilege except against Catholic beliefs and practices? Perhaps there is a Judaism counterpart somewhere as well?

More information would probably be helpful for details. Personally, when I was Catholic, I assumed that Jesus could take care of himself. Others can disrespect the Host - but if it's really Jesus, I don't think anything can actually desecrate it. (Then again I never believed that eating a donut too soon after mass was physically harming Jesus either, so maybe I've always been a heretic.) And if they disrespect it, or Jesus, he's dealt with worse.

Jesus surely can take care of Himself but that is hardly the point. Yes, the host absolutely is desecrated when mocked or used in an improper way. Just reference the professor at the UofM, Morris, professor P.Z. Meyers who destroyed one and joked about it on youtube. Why they keep him on the faculty I will never know? Nowhere do I know where Catholic teaching forbids consuming food soon after mass. Jesus has dealt with worse? Sure, but what of it?

Complain away, or protest, or don't? I don't really have a horse in the fight. But I do sincerely doubt that every Black Mass ever -which is no where near that common as they're probably a pain the butt AND they're deliberately provocative. - actually gets a consecrated host as that requires sitting through most of a Mass and concealing the wafer in your mouth or hand for EVER.

Well, I don’t doubt it. I admit though I have no real idea how prevalent Black Masses are, nor do I know with any certainty if cats or goats, et al. are sacrificed on the altar that often, far much less humans (also claimed). But many legal authorities have found skeletal remains of animals in the woods surrounded by makeshift altars. I doubt they were pranksters sending them on a goose chase. I also do not doubt your sincerity.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I wonder why they would bother. Black Masses are a bit of a joke nowadays, even amongst us Satanists. This Satanic Temple group is ******* annoying.

But other than that, you need to get over it. It's not like it's the first time a Black Mass has been performed.

 

[HexBomb]

Putting in my two cents: If a cultural group wants to do a Black Mass for their Satanists, why shouldn't they? Other religions exist. I don't see Christians out there complaining about how Messianic Judaism exists for the purpose of blaspheming Judaism and getting clueless people interested in Judaism, or people who were born Jewish but never taught to commit apostasy, misrepresenting Jewish belief, and yet that happens every day.

How many Christian festivals have pagan roots that were morphed and turned into celebrations of Christ or saints? Candlemas and Imbolg, the placement of Christmas, Brigid being turned into a saint, and let's not forget fairies, gods, and goddesses made into demons.

 

[Drolefille]

Yes, if it is detetected hanky panky at the communion service the perpetrator will be hunted down. But really it is no big trick at all to conceal a host. Nowadays they are mostly taken in two hands and many put their hands up to their mouth to consume it never seeing it actually enter. So if you want to pretend and still conceal it in your hands it is easily done. Yes, I will agree that Black Masses can be construed (and are in legitimate places like the military) as its own religion and are given some credibility. But it is the only “established” religion I know of in this country where it has the additional effect of blaspheming another major religion. So it is an affront to say the least denigrating the divinity or icons of another faith. It is the devil laughing at the Christ and the Christians.

Having taken communion in my hands, it is atypical in the extreme to shove one of both hands up to your mouth like a handful of popcorn is being swallowed, universally the host was taken in the left hand, picked up in the right, held visibly and placed in the mouth.

I guess the only response to the devil laughing would be "why would you let him get to you?"

I do not know what valid sources I am referring to, I just assumed with some confidence they exist. I take it back until I can prove otherwise. The article I read (not cited in my top post) made specific mention of sexual practices and a nude woman altar. I do not doubt that claim at this time.

That's cited in wikipedia as amongst the rumors of the whole thing. I think Black Masses would be more popular if there was sex. That said I know some Wiccans are pretty down with the sex at their rituals but everyone 'knows' about that.

The Catholics protesting the Vagina Monolgues were because they were hosted at Notre Dame University and other Catholic universities, which makes all the sense in the world why they would protest at those venues. I do not know of any reports where Satanism bothers with any sacrilege except against Catholic beliefs and practices? Perhaps there is a Judaism counterpart somewhere as well?

I was indeed attending a Jesuit university. Of course they're welcome to protest there, I object because the performance was forced off campus. I'm pleased because it wasn't shut down successfully. (And I was indeed still Catholic at this time.)

Why they keep him on the faculty I will never know? Nowhere do I know where Catholic teaching forbids consuming food soon after mass. Jesus has dealt with worse? Sure, but what of it?[/FONT

]
You're not supposed to eat before or after Communion for a period of an hour or half hour or something like that.

Well, I don’t doubt it. I admit though I have no real idea how prevalent Black Masses are, nor do I know with any certainty if cats or goats, et al. are sacrificed on the altar that often, far much less humans (also claimed). But many legal authorities have found skeletal remains of animals in the woods surrounded by makeshift altars. I doubt they were pranksters sending them on a goose chase. I also do not doubt your sincerity.

There really has been much for dramatic FEAR mongering regarding the issue than there has been actual animals killed for Satanic rituals. And even if there were, Santeria still kills chickens, possibly goats? Far more animals die to antisocial/conduct disorder teens who torture them for fun then to a Satanist's altar - particularly as most Satanists aren't theistic. (I think, number anyone?)

 

[Drolefille]

Putting in my two cents: If a cultural group wants to do a Black Mass for their Satanists, why shouldn't they? Other religions exist. I don't see Christians out there complaining about how Messianic Judaism exists for the purpose of blaspheming Judaism and getting clueless people interested in Judaism, or people who were born Jewish but never taught to commit apostasy, misrepresenting Jewish belief, and yet that happens every day.

Thank you for coming up with an example of it happening to another faith. I knew it was out there, I just couldn't think of anything.

 

[Alceste]

I am more than curious how you “count the cost?” What I mean is you have singled out Christianity and Islam as the two best examples of some kind of unfair intrusion into the lives of the secular. As though my preaching is as noxious and freedom altering as the 20,000 separate attacks / killings on innocent lives globally since 09/11/2001 done by those in the name of Allah or Muhammad or the Koran.

Has the voice of Christians in the public square and our right to vote as we wish been that intrusive and unfair to you or your schools? How so? You want to voice your opinion or project your godless agenda on our society and do so in a legal way, what right do we have to stop you or refer to it as pernicious?

Still, you dare place our legal overtures as Christians just as menacing as Sharia Law practiced in some neighborhoods in England or France where no policeman dare to tread.

To put it simply, secularists want issues of ethics and morality left to the individual conscience, regardless of their culture or religion.

Islamists and Christians both want to impose their religious values and myths on everyone else, regardless of where they are from and what they believe.

We have a problem with both. It's nothing to do with 9-11, and no it does not suppress your religious freedom to live in a secular society where your neighbours believe differently from you. Please practice your religion to your heart's content, but keep in mind it has no place interfering with secular education, law or politics. Those are for everyone, not just you and your congregation.

 

[John Doe]

Let us not even dare to mention any derision of Islam or we may have to go into hiding.

That is certainly true.

You should be proud that this demonstrates the tolerance and sanity of your society, and your religion.

Don't forget that many people have bad experiences of christianity, and feel a powerful and understandable need to banish it. For example, victims of sexual abuse which was effectively covered up by the pope and the bishops. Many others simply resent the impact of christian theology in education and government - and in their families - and feel a need to stand against it, and to stand with those of like mind.

That is also true for some muslims, but as you say, if they cursed the religion which abused them they would face even worse outcomes. This is probably even true for the victims of Boko Haram. They dare not suggest that the nature of Islam in their community breeds dangerous ignorance.

The fact of life is that satanism is part of the cultural life of Americans, and is a powerful icon of free speech. Should the university pretend that this is not the case ?

 

[Desert Snake]

Islamists and Christians both want to impose their religious values and myths on everyone else, regardless of where they are from and what they believe.

.

Say what? You're over-generalizing..:sarcastic

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

If it makes you feel better, thau, I don't like any of the Abrahamic religions and I tend to dislike Islam more than Christianity these days. I would love it if someone came up with a rite honoring Iblis and denouncing Allah and Mohammad. Like I said, Black Masses are more of a joke these days than anything else and are rarely practiced.

 

[Alceste]

Say what? You're over-generalizing..:sarcastic

True, I should say "some" Christians and Muslims want to live in a theocracy.

Basically, those people are the primary recipients of atheist criticism.

 

[columbus]

Anybody want a link to the documentary " Father Shanley fingers the Culprit"?

No. I didn't think so.

Tom

 

[Tumah]

I don't see why they shouldn't be allowed to. Harvard isn't a Christian university. There's no reason why they should be bound by Christian sensibilities over Satanic ones.

 

[Shiranui117]

Putting in my two cents: If a cultural group wants to do a Black Mass for their Satanists, why shouldn't they? Other religions exist. I don't see Christians out there complaining about how Messianic Judaism exists for the purpose of blaspheming Judaism and getting clueless people interested in Judaism, or people who were born Jewish but never taught to commit apostasy, misrepresenting Jewish belief, and yet that happens every day.

The difference being, Messianic Jews are genuinely convinced that their way of Christianity is the only legitimate way to follow Jesus. They actually try to become Jewish as much as they can, and will call us non-Messianics false Christians and breakers of Christ's commands. No MJ ever tries to denigrate Judaism or mock it--quite the contrary. Whether they in fact do is another matter.

 

[Desert Snake]

'black mas'....hmmm Well I wouldn't go.

 

[Shiranui117]

'black mas'....hmmm Well I wouldn't go.

And perhaps that's the best response.

If you want your child to stop being a crybaby, you ignore its crying (unless it's crying because it got hurt, in which case you help like a responsible human being). Perhaps not giving this Black Mass the attention some practitioners of it seem to want is the best way to go about it.

 

[HexBomb]

The difference being, Messianic Jews are genuinely convinced that their way of Christianity is the only legitimate way to follow Jesus. They actually try to become Jewish as much as they can, and will call us non-Messianics false Christians and breakers of Christ's commands. No MJ ever tries to denigrate Judaism or mock it--quite the contrary. Whether they in fact do is another matter.

I have no doubt that is how the majority of Messianic Jews feel. However, when I was at my first Christian school, we had a speaker who was the 'Rabbi' of a Messianic Judaism synagogue in my state.

He explained how important it was to convert Jews to Christ, and how 'it wasn't technically lying' to call the New Testament a 'Jewish holy book.' He even gave out cards with 'tips and tricks' into convincing people that 'Messianic Judaism' was 'real Judaism.' The more 'Jewish pomp and circumstance' you could get into a service, the better.

He even went so far as to say that you never want a Messianic Jew to be comfortable calling themselves a Christian, because it won't encourage more Jews to follow. According to him, the more people who thought Messianic Judaism was Judaism, the more souls they could save, and that made everything okay.

 

[Desert Snake]

I have no doubt that is how the majority of Messianic Jews feel. However, when I was at my first Christian school, we had a speaker who was the 'Rabbi' of a Messianic Judaism synagogue in my state.

He explained how important it was to convert Jews to Christ, and how 'it wasn't technically lying' to call the New Testament a 'Jewish holy book.' He even gave out cards with 'tips and tricks' into convincing people that 'Messianic Judaism' was 'real Judaism.' The more 'Jewish pomp and circumstance' you could get into a service, the better.

He even went so far as to say that you never want a Messianic Jew to be comfortable calling themselves a Christian, because it won't encourage more Jews to follow. According to him, the more people who thought Messianic Judaism was Judaism, the more souls they could save, and that made everything okay.

And...what's your point?

 

[HexBomb]

And...what's your point?

My point was that there are other religious movements who purposefully (at least on some level) do things knowing that they are purposefully profaning another faith. There were some suggestions that because it's Catholicism, people are saying 'It's okay, blaspheme away,' or that Satanism the only religion that purposefully warps or uses another religion's symbols and beliefs.

I just used Messianic Judaism as an example, because I have had the misfortune of meeting too many who know that it is offensive and why, and purposefully do it anyway to try and deceive people into converting, because 'Everything is permissible.'

 

[Desert Snake]

My point was that there are other religious movements who purposefully (at least on some level) do things knowing that they are purposefully profaning another faith. There were some suggestions that because it's Catholicism, people are saying 'It's okay, blaspheme away,' or that Satanism the only religion that purposefully warps or uses another religion's symbols and beliefs.

I just used Messianic Judaism as an example, because I have had the misfortune of meeting too many who know that it is offensive and why, and purposefully do it anyway to try and deceive people into converting, because 'Everything is permissible.'

But, see, there is a paradigm there that many are unaware of, of course messianic Judaism is Judaism...why wouldn't it be?....