Harvard Cultural Club to host Black Mass -- such a welcoming gesture

[Tumah]

But, see, there is a paradigm there that many are unaware of, of course messianic Judaism is Judaism...why wouldn't it be?....

Really?

 

[Desert Snake]

Really?

We can make another thread, might be interesting.

seems like it is Judaism to me.........could be wrong...

 

[thau]

Putting in my two cents: If a cultural group wants to do a Black Mass for their Satanists, why shouldn't they? Other religions exist. I don't see Christians out there complaining about how Messianic Judaism exists for the purpose of blaspheming Judaism and getting clueless people interested in Judaism, or people who were born Jewish but never taught to commit apostasy, misrepresenting Jewish belief, and yet that happens every day.

How many Christian festivals have pagan roots that were morphed and turned into celebrations of Christ or saints? Candlemas and Imbolg, the placement of Christmas, Brigid being turned into a saint, and let's not forget fairies, gods, and goddesses made into demons.

Your point about Christianity being an affront to Jews has some value for further thought, but really, Christianity despite its errors with Jews is a religion that is intent on treating all men with dignity and charity. It resembles Satanism in almost no legitimate argument. The pagan roots of Christian festivals are few and inconsequential. All of Catholicism’s roots are Jewish and not as a cover or disguise but as common belief.

 

[thau]

To put it simply, secularists want issues of ethics and morality left to the individual conscience, regardless of their culture or religion.

Islamists and Christians both want to impose their religious values and myths on everyone else, regardless of where they are from and what they believe.

We have a problem with both. It's nothing to do with 9-11, and no it does not suppress your religious freedom to live in a secular society where your neighbours believe differently from you. Please practice your religion to your heart's content, but keep in mind it has no place interfering with secular education, law or politics. Those are for everyone, not just you and your congregation.

I ask again, how is it Christians are imposing anything on anyone in this nation outside of one man one vote? Can we not vote our conscience as do you? Can we not keep a law on the books that disallows porn shops near schools or churches if that is what the community votes for? Can I not vote for a candidate who believes in Christian morals when he makes his decisions, or does the constitution say a congressmen has to vote as though no God exists?

Let us not pretend that revisionist historians are unbiased and without agenda. To take religion out of our nation’s history and its impact is to fabricate. Secular law or politics does not have the right to dictate how a man must judge. If my God says abortion is morally wrong, then I am going to vote against abortion based on my religious values. And you can vote for it based on your own values derived from any source you wish to cite.

 

[thau]

I don't see why they shouldn't be allowed to. Harvard isn't a Christian university. There's no reason why they should be bound by Christian sensibilities over Satanic ones.

Yes, but their selective targets to offend is telling. Surely they would never celebrate (for culture or diversity's sake) any satanic religion that denigrated Islam, and neither would "avant garde" Hollywood. So I am not impressed with their "forward thinking" and accepting of all kinds.

This also brings to mind the Nazi party that wanted to parade down the streets of Skokie, Illinois where there was a heavy Jewish presence. Did the city allow it? Why not? How dare they discriminate?

 

[Tumah]

Yes, but their selective targets to offend is telling. Surely they would never celebrate (for culture or diversity's sake) any satanic religion that denigrated Islam, and neither would "avant garde" Hollywood. So I am not impressed with their "forward thinking" and accepting of all kinds.

This also brings to mind the Nazi party that wanted to parade down the streets of Skokie, Illinois where there was a heavy Jewish presence. Did the city allow it? Why not? How dare they discriminate?

I don't think there are any religions that represent antithetical theology specifically to Islamic belief.
Nazism doesn't represent antithetical theology to Judaism, but the idea that Jews should be wiped out.

Satanism is not a religions or worship that embraces genocide. They simply believe to some extent, the opposite of what you do. There is no reason they shouldn't be allowed to, anymore than you should be allowed to believe that G-d might manifest in the flesh- an idea that is antithetical to Judaism.

If some Harvard club wants the exposure to various minority religions/worshiping, there is no reason for them not to be able to do so. And you should no more take offense at them, then you believe we should take at you.

 

[thau]

That is certainly true.

You should be proud that this demonstrates the tolerance and sanity of your society, and your religion.

Don't forget that many people have bad experiences of christianity, and feel a powerful and understandable need to banish it. For example, victims of sexual abuse which was effectively covered up by the pope and the bishops. Many others simply resent the impact of christian theology in education and government - and in their families - and feel a need to stand against it, and to stand with those of like mind.

That is also true for some muslims, but as you say, if they cursed the religion which abused them they would face even worse outcomes. This is probably even true for the victims of Boko Haram. They dare not suggest that the nature of Islam in their community breeds dangerous ignorance.

The fact of life is that satanism is part of the cultural life of Americans, and is a powerful icon of free speech. Should the university pretend that this is not the case ?

The university pretends all the time. Their agendas are not hard to see, and consequently, they are pretending they are open minded and welcome all thoughts. And yet, that is not the case on the ground. Conservative or Christian professors are extremely rare amongst many or most major universities. The liberal agenda is easy to demonstrate. And if a science professor dare question evolution’s claims its bye-bye career.

Yes, Satanism may be part of the cultural life of Americans, but so are the selective choices and ulterior motives of colleges part of the life of Americans. Do you really think they give equal voice to pro-life voices, anti gay marriage voices, Christian voices? No, they do not, and that can be easily researched. Consequently, I call them out on their choice of celebrating Satanism, it was not a random act of which religions to display.

But I agree with you about how the sins of the clergy and the bishops has turned off a large segment of the population to the Catholic faith and it is hard to fault them. Nor do I fault them for their efforts to extricate any hint of Christianity in their schools or laws, what have you. However, that does not take away from the truth of the faith’s teachings, nor of the merits it has to offer. Christianity is part of the fallen world and their will be devils or great sinners within and terrible consequences. This is tragic and part of the great trial mankind goes through. It is also a good sign that the devil knows where to gain the most ground - - strike the shepherd and the sheep will scatter.

 

[thau]

I don't think there are any religions that represent antithetical theology specifically to Islamic belief.

And if there were, how long do you think these people would remain alive? Heck, a Shiite would not think twice of removing a Sunni from the face of this earth because of their belief differences.

Nazism doesn't represent antithetical theology to Judaism, but the idea that Jews should be wiped out.

Fine, but the point here is that some groups are not allowed to demonstrate publicly because of how much hurt their presence causes another group. It is a judgment call and I am fine with that. I think Harvard showed bad judgment.

Satanism is not a religions or worship that embraces genocide. They simply believe to some extent, the opposite of what you do. There is no reason they shouldn't be allowed to, anymore than you should be allowed to believe that G-d might manifest in the flesh- an idea that is antithetical to Judaism.

Again, I think one has to use more discretion and prudence here. Christianity is not overtly excoriating and mocking the Jewish faith, nor was it originated for said purposes. I am guessing you are fine with public museums offending the sensitivities of Christians by having a crucifix in urine on display. But do you see any other religion being blatantly publicly mocked or scandalized in museums?

 

[Shiranui117]

Joke or not to you, they are not a joke to the Almighty. You are not exactly one to take seriously either, posing as a devout Catholic for months. Am I to also assume your latest title of devil worshiper is tongue in cheek as well? I’m over the Black Mass, I made one top post about it, not multiple.

PS – what the heck kind of picture you got going there? It’s not giving a clear signal so is ineffective.

This is a very unfair attack. You don't know the state of saint_frankenstein's heart when he returned to Catholicism for a few months. Calling him a poser is making a judgement for which you have no basis.

 

[Thana]

Our great institutions of learning in this nation are so full of themselves that they appear to be saying the more avant garde (read: blasphemous) one can be, especially when it flies against traditional Christianity, the more one should be hailed as courageous and daring to test boundaries --- I guess not unlike Star Trek to go where no man has gone before. This world has already made a mockery of art (imo), but religion is the far bigger prize to blaspheme or destroy under the guise of inclusiveness or “furthering education.” What a joke this is to me, albeit frightful, not funny.

Harvard Extension Cultural Studies Club Hosting Satanic 'Black Mass'

If the price for me to have the freedom to practice my religion is that others can also practice their religion, Then I feel like I've gotten a bargain.

Besides, It is not me they offend. It is my God. And they will answer to Him, not me.

I understand the point you're trying to get across though, God forbid there ever is a religion that blatantly blasphemes Islam or Muhammad. But I think that it shows that Christianity as a whole is a much more peaceful and humble religion than it once was.

Be proud to turn the other cheek

 

[thau]

This is a very unfair attack. You don't know the state of saint_frankenstein's heart when he returned to Catholicism for a few months. Calling him a poser is making a judgement for which you have no basis.

Well then I apologize sincerely to him and to you.

But for the record, I do not take the person as thin-skinned or afraid of confrontation. It was intended more as a friendly taunt than some kind of put down.

Shall I do anything more about it?

 

[Tumah]

And if there were, how long do you think these people would remain alive? Heck, a Shiite would not think twice of removing a Sunni from the face of this earth because of their belief differences.

That is between Muslims and themselves. I don't think they view each other as offensive. They just don't agree with each other's theology and may sometimes act violently on that disagreement.

Fine, but the point here is that some groups are not allowed to demonstrate publicly because of how much hurt their presence causes another group. It is a judgment call and I am fine with that. I think Harvard showed bad judgment.

Their presence represents a danger not an offense. That is slightly different.

Again, I think one has to use more discretion and prudence here. Christianity is not overtly excoriating and mocking the Jewish faith, nor was it originated for said purposes. I am guessing you are fine with public museums offending the sensitivities of Christians by having a crucifix in urine on display. But do you see any other religion being blatantly publicly mocked or scandalized in museums?

This is a matter of having surpassed your own critical mass. This is what people do. Just ask the ADL. And when you become so big, there are going to be proportionally more people doing these things. Ask the Muslims, they know all about people offending their sensibilities. Getting uptight about it isn't going to help anything. As long as not one is persecuting you, let everyone do what they want. Just like they let you.

 

[Drolefille]

I think claiming that a Shiite would kill a Sunni as if it were universal fact should be as ridiculous as stating a Catholic would kill a Protestant. If you would object to the latter you should object to the former.

 

[thau]

I think claiming that a Shiite would kill a Sunni as if it were universal fact should be as ridiculous as stating a Catholic would kill a Protestant. If you would object to the latter you should object to the former.

Well, again, my apologies.

But I assume one might read between the lines and realize I am speaking of the militant ones. The ones who started the Iraq-Iran war in 1980's and going forward. The ones who have bombed each other thousands of times, indiscriminately with many non-combatant women and children as victims.

Outside of N. Ireland which is more of a socio-economic class struggle and not despising each others' beliefs, I do not consider it fair to compare their actions of intolerance with those of the Islamic faiths.

 

[HexBomb]

Your point about Christianity being an affront to Jews has some value for further thought, but really, Christianity despite its errors with Jews is a religion that is intent on treating all men with dignity and charity. It resembles Satanism in almost no legitimate argument. The pagan roots of Christian festivals are few and inconsequential. All of Catholicism’s roots are Jewish and not as a cover or disguise but as common belief.

I wasn't talking about Christianity in general using Judaism, I was specifivcally using Messianic Judaism.

Second, the pagan roots of Christian festivals are neither 'few' nor 'inconsequential.' Other faiths matter. Just because they were beaten down and their festivals absorbed and symbolism used doesn't mean that those faiths don't matter.

 

[Alceste]

I ask again, how is it Christians are imposing anything on anyone in this nation outside of one man one vote? Can we not vote our conscience as do you? Can we not keep a law on the books that disallows porn shops near schools or churches if that is what the community votes for? Can I not vote for a candidate who believes in Christian morals when he makes his decisions, or does the constitution say a congressmen has to vote as though no God exists?

Let us not pretend that revisionist historians are unbiased and without agenda. To take religion out of our nation’s history and its impact is to fabricate. Secular law or politics does not have the right to dictate how a man must judge. If my God says abortion is morally wrong, then I am going to vote against abortion based on my religious values. And you can vote for it based on your own values derived from any source you wish to cite.

Imposing the values of one religion onto a pluralistic society is tyrannical, whether that particular religious group constitutes a majority or a minority of voters.

We can easily see how a country turns out when religion and politics get too cozy by turning our eyes to the middle east.

The values some Christians and muslims desire to impose on the rest of us are not so different as adherents of both groups would like to believe.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Well then I apologize sincerely to him and to you.

But for the record, I do not take the person as thin-skinned or afraid of confrontation. It was intended more as a friendly taunt than some kind of put down.

Shall I do anything more about it?

I didn't find anything friendly about it and I don't accept your apology. It was a low personal attack, plain and simple. If I were you, I'd delete it before the staff gets to it.

 

[Revoltingest]

Yes, perhaps we cannot stand in the way of diversity and “equal rights” so to speak?

I might point out, militant atheism spends an inordinate amount of time mocking the Christian God and/or trying to disprove this “fictional” god, all the while ignoring all other creeds in their entirety.

Strikes me as rather telling, even ironic… as though it appears “the lady” protesteth too much.

We go after the low hanging fruit. (But I don't think I protesteth enuf.)
Xians are most convenient, since they're a majority in this country, & they do
exercise a great deal of power over us. (They make up most of government.)
But we do criticize all faiths. We're multicultural that way.

 

[Gehennaite]

This cult is irrelevant. Literally no one cares.

 

[Desert Snake]

I wasn't talking about Christianity in general using Judaism, I was specifivcally using Messianic Judaism.

Where do you see "Christianity" in "MESSIANIC JUDAISM??"