Hatred of homosexuals, Christians and the rich

[lewisnotmiller]

This is incorrect to say the majority of Americans are Christians. Many are confusing simple "respond to this survey" answers as reality. For example, you ask the average American, "what are you, what do you identify as the most?" the huge majority will not say "Christian" as their first response. Only true practicing Christians respond so.

Yeah...except that is precisely what they WERE asked, in multiple surveys, and the number of respondents who answered 'Christian' hovers consistently around the 73% - 76%.

Most Americans rarely go to church, or other religious centers such as temples. It does not mean Americans are not "religious", actually the typical concept of many, many Americans is rather basic, that "God exists" and they "believe in a God". That is not the same as saying "Jesus is God".

You're just freelancing, aren't ya?

New York, N.Y. - December 16, 2013 - A new Harris Poll finds that while a strong majority (74%) of U.S. adults do believe in God, this belief is in decline when compared to previous years as just over four in five (82%) expressed a belief in God in 2005, 2007 and 2009. Also, while majorities also believe in miracles (72%, down from 79% in 2005), heaven (68%, down from 75%), that Jesus is God or the Son of God (68%, down from 72%), the resurrection of Jesus Christ (65%, down from 70%), the survival of the soul after death (64%, down from 69%), the devil, hell (both at 58%, down from 62%) and the Virgin birth (57%, down from 60%), these are all down from previous Harris Polls.

Source : Harris Interactive: Harris Polls > Americans

If someone went around with a clipboard and said "mark your religion here", the person may mark "Christian" but that is only because, if they respond at all (many would take offense and be suspicious as to why someone needs to know), they just check something hoping they will make the person taking the survey happy. I know this sounds strange, but it is part of the "human nature" of many Americans.

It's not so much that it sound strange. It's that it sounds completely contradictory to the USA being a place where Christians are the most targeted and hated group in the country. Sure, if Christians WERE the most targeted and hated group in the country, I'm going to make the interviewer happy by marking
'I'm not a Christian...no sirree...not me. No Christianity here.'

But nope...they mark Christian, because (according to you) that is the least controversial answer, and the one most likely to make the interviewer happy.

The person responding never goes to church but instead watches football on Sunday, or whatever. The person doesn't even know anything of Bible verse, nor cares to know, other than a few "Chapter x verse n" type stuff they heard used in the past as some sort of endorsement for their favorite NFL team (e.g. holding up a sign with the verse reference hoping their sign will be shown on Monday Night Football).

Which person is this? The default 'Christian' in your head? You realise that speaks mostly to your thoughts on Christianity, right?

They actually are not a Christian at all, but for expediency they might check Christian because "I think my parents were" sort of thing. They just believe there is a God (or Gods) but "whatever".

Yes...they believe there is a God. And that Jesus was the son of said God, for the most part. That miracles are possible. That there is a heaven. To some, this marks them as Christian.

So you may end up with a survey indicating most Americans are Christian, but in fact only a true minority are actually true practicing Christians, most Americans are actually no particular religion at all, or secular, or just "nothing".

I'd agree that there are a percentage of people who mark themselves as Christian for cultural reasons. This is largely because Christianity is historically the strongest religion in the USA, that it is the 'default' religion in terms of assumptions made, and that it is NOT PREJUDICED AGAINST in the way you are indicating.

A breakdown of which religion a group of US Senators belong to means nothing. It is just expediency in most cases here as well. They are not Christians, they are politicians. Lawyers. Many actually hate the minority Christians in America.

They state the are Christian because either (1) They are Christian and/or (2) being Christian gives them the best chances of vote-getting.
Explain how this is not relevant to a discussion on whether Christians are the most hated and targeted group in America?

The rich are now being violently attacked, their houses broken into, stores looted and so on. Someone mentioned America itself is being targetted - yes, there is truth in that, I say America is being targetted with hate and hate crimes by many.

Any chance of something to back up your supposition that the rich are increasingly targeted?
How do you define rich? Give me something to work with, I'll do the research for you if you like...promise I'll be balanced and fair.

Now someone said a survey shows Americans do not see Muslims in a good light.

That is true.

Yeah...recent PEW survey showed that Muslims and atheists were the most untrustworthy groups.

It has nothing to do with these same Americans thinking "I am Christian, they are not". B.S.

Oh?

They never think Christian anything. They don't like Muslims who want to blow up the shopping mall or subway. It is simple as that, and actually most Americans never even thought about Muslim anything until the terrorism started. But the Muslim extremists have gotten the attention of most Americans, now. They are looking at them now. And saying screw you.

Exactly. Muslims and atheists have been responsible for 100% of the terrorist attacks on American soil involving the Twin Towers. So screw 'em.

So Christians are a minority in America. They are the most abused of minorities along with homosexuals. The rich are increasingly being targetted, but not to the extent.

I'd personally find it more compelling if you added evidence to your conjecture, but perhaps I'm not your target audience.

I am a Hindu. I see the bigotry of those who have those who hate Christians, homosexuals and the rich. You have to let go of this hate.

Lessee...checklist time...

Do I hate Christians?
No.
Evidence?
Best man at my wedding was a practicing Christian, best friend is a practicing Christian, and hating people due such a broad label is simplistic and ignorant.

Do I hate Homosexuals?
No.
Evidence?
I dunno. I have been friends with and worked with plenty of homosexuals. Who sticks what in where is boring to me, unless I'm on either end of the equation. Have commonly stated here that I think the lack of marriage equality in Australia is a disgrace. Occasionally leads to some interesting conversations with my Christian friends, but ya get that...

Do I hate the rich?
Well...hence my question earlier. Depending on your definition, I might actually BE part of the rich. I don't self-hate, so I'm going with no for now.

 

[ShivaFan]

If you want to be a communist, go ahead have a field day. It makes me laugh to watch the communists in West Bengal (India, CPI(M)) and Cuba and North Korea etc. act like they are standing up "against America" (and Europe, and ... oh Jews and such) by declaring they are Communists. There is nothing Cuban, Korean, Indian about communism, it is totally a Western invention and system. And actually many Jews were great communists ("great" in the relative term).

So again, if you want to hate the "Western" system, you need to hate yourself because there is nothing more Western than communism which is now so old school and failed it isn't funny.

I want to save telescopes from the terrorist cults. Wealth is telescopes. Microscopes. It is the progress of a free society. There will NEVER be a utopia, so yes you might live in a crappy apartment with bed bugs brought in by illegal aliens. But you still can complain, and not be put in a gulag. Why don't you invent a final solution for bed bugs? You would become rich like me, and everyone would be grateful. But anyway, you will have a lot of worse problems because ebola is coming to your apartment, it's crossing the border now. The last thing you want to do however is burn down the "system" that may find the cure with those modern "gadgets" which the terrorist want to take away.

 

[ShivaFan]

Sorry Lewis, your surveys are useless and mean little. They are also the oldest trick used by those with an agenda. And yes, they just check anything, whatever is easy without thinking. No they are not Christian. Christians are a minority in America and Europe. And they are an abused minority just as are homosexuals.

 

[Viker]

Seriously?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

If you want to be a communist, go ahead have a field day. It makes me laugh to watch the communists in West Bengal (India, CPI(M)) and Cuba and North Korea etc. act like they are standing up "against America (and Europe, and ... oh Jews and such) by declaring they are Communists. There is nothing Cuban, Korean, Indian about communism, it is totally a Western invention and system. And actually many Jews were great communists ("great" in the relative term).

So again, if you want to hate the "Western" system, you need to hate yourself because there is nothing more Western than communism which is now so old school and failed it isn't funny.

I want to save telescopes from the terrorist cults. Wealth is telescopes. Microscopes. It is the progress of a free society. There will NEVER be a utopia, so yes you might live in a crappy apartment with bed bugs brought in by illegal aliens. But you still can complain, and not be put in a gulag. Why don't you invent a final solution for bed bugs? You would become rich like me, and everyone would be grateful. But anyway, you will have a lot of worse problems because ebola is coming to your apartment, it's crossing the border now. The last thing you want to do however is burn down the "system" that may find the cure with those modern "gadgets" which the terrorist want to take away.

Lol. Typical ignorant right-wing American drivel. Places like Cuba and North Korea are not communist. North Korea is a corrupted hereditary dictatorship, for instance. There is no "communist state". That's an oxymoron, anyway. I'm an anarcho-communist, not a Marxist. My views are closer to neotribalism than the worldview of Marxism.

I don't hate the West. I'm somewhat of a Western nationalist and strongly believe in the revival of the pre-Christian indigenous cultures of the Germanic, Celtic, Slavic, Hellenic, etc. peoples. I don't equate modern imperialist globalist capitalism with Western culture. In fact, I don't equate it with any culture because it really doesn't have a culture. It's culture-destroying and pushes mindless consumerism, turning us into a bunch of drones and slaves.

 

[ShivaFan]

I am not a right winger SF. And yes... no one ever practiced "real communism", because those who used the sales pitch only sought their own power. You see, that is why you need to expand your horizons from only seeing the 35% of corrupt people in the Oil Company to be the same human element of 35% of humans in government who will do the same to you or likely worse once they control your life in a much broader scale than an oil company.

Your problem is crappy people, and there will always be pretty much these crappy people. And actually, how am I to know if you are also not one of those crappy people? Should I just take your word for it?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I am not a right winger SF. And yes... no one ever practiced "real communism", because those who used the sales pitch only sought their own power. You see, that is why you need to expand your horizons from only seeing the 35% of corrupt people in the Oil Company to he the same human element of 35% of the same humans in govrnment who will do the same to you or likely worse once they control your life in a much broader scale than an oil company.

Your problem is crappy people, and there will always be pretty much these crappy people. And actually, how am I to know if you are also not one of those crappy people? Should I just take your word for it?

Lots of people have and do practice communism. It's commonly found in tribal societies, religious communities and intentional communes. Elements of it are found in our own cultures, too, with things like file sharing and open source.

I'm not a statist, so I'm not sure why you brought up the government.

 

[ShivaFan]

I hope not SF. Yes, there are some "tribal" communities that function admirably. But I wouldn't use a Western term such as communist to describe them. But I get what you are saying. They would not consider Karl Marx their friend, however.

Hatred of groups is not the answer. I stand by what I see, that Christians and homosexuals are now in the dangerzones of hatred towards them across the planet. They themselves are not lacking of it in their own circles as with evey society or group. I now have found hate-washed Buddhists in Sri Lanka, and among my own too.

Actually, Buddhists have committed horrific crimes upon humans. Many Buddhists will never admit so. But they have many sufferings yet to come.

Stop hating Christians. Stop hating homosexuals. And stop hating rich people.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Sorry Lewis, your surveys are useless and mean little. They are also the oldest trick used by those with an agenda. And yes, they just check anything, whatever is easy without thinking. No they are not Christian. Christians are a minority in America and Europe. And they are an abused minority just as are homosexuals.

You realise this isn't like Beetlejuice, right? Saying something three times doesn't make it real.

My surveys (as if they are 'mine'!) are sourced from a variety of independent sources. And, amazingly, there is a level of consistency in their answers, which does suggest credibility. There is also no CONTRARY EVIDENCE, but by all means, offer some if you have any.

Ultimately it's obviously NOT in your interests to allow for credible evidence when holding a position that is completely WITHOUT evidence. So, instead of relying on multiple credible evidentiary sources we are supposed to rely on your word, as an individual on the internet, that Christians are a minority, not just in the US, but in Europe.

Further, not only are they a minority, but a hated and targeted one at that.

'Don't believe evidence, that's clearly agenda-driven by THEM. Instead, believe me. Because I'm right.'

:no:

Still not buying.

For what it's worth, as promised, I tried to find some evidence FOR you. This is as close as I could get...

How Will The Shocking Decline Of Christianity In America Affect The Future Of This Nation?

Gotta be said, it was a wacky half hour on Google, but this at least covered some of your points about 'true' Christians with reference to evidence.

You're going to have to define 'Christianity' and 'Rich' for me though. Homosexual is fine...I'm assuming the standard definition.

 

[psychoslice]

I think most times the Christian deserve what they get, that is with all their hate towards everything, there isn't much that they like, or believe to be without so called sin, a miserable existence that's for sure..

 

[Scott C.]

I think most times the Christian deserve what they get, that is with all their hate towards everything, there isn't much that they like, or believe to be without so called sin, a miserable existence that's for sure..

Do you realize that you just proved the opening post?

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Do you realize that you just proved the opening post?

Naw...one poster on the internet doesn't make Christians Americas most persecuted group, especially when said poster isn't American.

 

[Sunstone]

Sorry Lewis, your surveys are useless and mean little. They are also the oldest trick used by those with an agenda.

This is the first time in my ten years on RF someone has asserted, in effect, that citing facts is the oldest trick used by those with an agenda. That's as hilarious as Colbert's line that "reality has a well known liberal bias". Only Colbert was actually trying to be hilarious.

 

[Sunstone]

I'm still waiting for someone to list examples of violence against the rich. I know that, by FOX standards, something need not be true for you to say it's true. But I'm old fashioned in the sense I like my facts to be actual facts. The thread author asserts that the rich are being subjected to violence. Is that an actual fact, or just a FOX fact?

 

[Jainarayan]

...that dont believe their is such a thing as a homosexual Christian. ...

Not so fast...

Homosexuals can't and don't follow Christ's teachings to love others as he did? To love God with all one's heart, soul and strength? To treat others as you'd want to be treated? To not judge so they're not judged? Homosexuals can't do that? Let me tell you something... there are probably more homosexuals who don't identify as Christians than Christians who call themselves Christians and don't abide by any of those teachings. Too many people seem to forget that Christianity is to follow Christ, not Paul.

 

[ShivaFan]

I didn't read even one of these survey postings, I don't need to. The same general behavior from the same responders will reflect the same general results in surveys no matter how many different agendists run the survey.

It is like taking a survey, "Are you a racist?" ... actually most are not, but even if they were you would get the same result depending on the genre of the times. Of course you would have the self-hating lefty types who would respond "Yes I am a racist" when in fact what they mean is "I am guilty for all the crimes of the world because I live in a rich country" but basically even with fools like this messing up the survey it would still be flawed since most would say "No I am not a racist" regardless of whether they are or not. LOL. And actually, I don't need to see the results of survey to know that among different groups in our diverse pool the most racist today are African-Americans and the most racist specifically against blacks themselves are Hispanics and especially illegal alien ones. The forms of racism today need to stop.

I have noticed actually, among those who are Christians (not those who say they are out of expediency) they are some of the most open of society accepting others and the least of racists, but of course this openess is the nature inclusive of wanting you to "accept Jesus in your life".

But there are only a minority of Christians in America and Europe. Most if they worship anything, it is politicians and sports figures though most just go about day to day life just "getting along" and do not care certainly about Christian anything, they do not go to church, Christianity has about as much relevance in their life as toasters.

I would like to see more Americans as Hindus personally, and in fact the numbers are rising. Because like I say, I do think most follow the actual religion of America and Europe, which is open to looking around on occasion, and that is the religion of "God exists" (viz "whatever...").

Americans are some of the most wonderful people I know. What a huge contrast they are to Muslim extremist pockets of the world where some actual Christians are living in the outposts of the ancient world but are now being exterminated. Hopefully these nice Americans will save these Christians even though most Americans are "God" religion ("whatever") and not Christian. It wouldn't surprise me in the least. After all, despite all of America's and Europe's problems (I guess I should throw in Canada), there is no better place for another persecuted group to live, i.e. homosexuals, than that even though they along with Christians face the most stigmatization in today's world.

There are a lot of self-guilt types however. Many have a lot of personal issues, and hopefully they can be turned around from such hate. Actually they are the one's who blame the "big targets" for their personal problems and thus are the most likely to try and attack rich people, it is big targets such as "the CIA did it to me", "Amerika ", "George Bush" ... but the answer for them is not "happy pills".

 

[lewisnotmiller]

I didn't read even one of these survey postings, I don't need to.

Cool, mate...I'd hate to have wasted time by doing anything scandalous, like responding rationally to your OP. Glad my effort wasn't wasted.

The same general behavior from the same responders will reflect the same general results in surveys no matter how many different agendists run the survey.

If by that you mean that a random sample of folks across a general population, if large enough, can be mathematically proven to be representative of the whole, within identifiable bounds, and that multiple surveys on the same topic will therefore likely return the same results, then I completely agree.

It is like taking a survey, "Are you a racist?" ... actually most are not, but even if they were you would get the same result depending on the genre of the times.

Errr...so your contention is that survey's aren't accurate. At all. Not informative. At all. Is that right?

And actually, I don't need to see the results of survey to know that among different groups in our diverse pool the most racist today are African-Americans and the most racist specifically against blacks themselves are Hispanics and especially illegal alien ones. The forms of racism today need to stop.

This may be the most ironically humorous paragraph I have read in my time here. If this was deliberate, then all I can say is well played, sir. Comedic genius.

I have noticed actually, among those who are Christians (not those who say they are out of expediency) they are some of the most open of society accepting others and the least of racists, but of course this openess is the nature inclusive of wanting you to "accept Jesus in your life".

I'm still interested in how you define a Christian.

But there are only a minority of Christians in America and Europe.

Beetlejuice!

Most if they worship anything, it is politicians and sports figures though most just go about day to day life just "getting along" and do not care certainly about Christian anything, they do not go to church, Christianity has about as much relevance in their life as toasters.

There is some truth here, if overstated. But can you please define what you need by Christian? Also interested in what you mean by 'rich'?

I would like to see more Americans as Hindus personally, and in fact the numbers are rising. Because like I say, I do think most follow the actual religion of America and Europe, which is open to looking around on occasion, and that is the religion of "God exists" (viz "whatever...").

Numbers are rising. In Australia too. Here it is generally in line with immigration policies. Couple of questions on this though;
1) How do you know Hindu numbers are rising?
2) Do you think Hindu's are immune to a more casual association with their religion?

Americans are some of the most wonderful people I know. What a huge contrast they are to Muslim extremist pockets of the world where some actual Christians are living in the outposts of the ancient world but are now being exterminated. Hopefully these nice Americans will save these Christians even though most Americans are "God" religion ("whatever") and not Christian. It wouldn't surprise me in the least. After all, despite all of America's and Europe's problems (I guess I should throw in Canada), there is no better place for another persecuted group to live, i.e. homosexuals, than that even though they along with Christians face the most stigmatization in today's world.

I'd offer up New Zealand. *shrugs*
But you're suggesting that some of the most secular countries in the world (eg. Sweden, Norway, Canada, New Zealand) are places that homosexuals face the most stigmatization in today's world, and that's not supportable by facts. You're also continuing to suggest that one of the most Christian countries on Earth (regardless of your personal determination of who is Christian) is the most stigmatizing towards Christians. Finally, you've suggested that the rich are persecuted in the richest country on earth where there is almost the largest inequity between rich and poor (behind Singapore and Hong Kong).
I think any one of these claims would require some evidence. Of any type. At all.

There are a lot of self-guilt types however. Many have a lot of personal issues, and hopefully they can be turned around from such hate. Actually they are the one's who blame the "big targets" for their personal problems and thus are the most likely to try and attack rich people, it is big targets such as "the CIA did it to me", "Amerika ", "George Bush" ... but the answer for them is not "happy pills".

As mentioned earlier, dependent on your definition, I am quite possibly 'rich'. I also have no issue in the least with Christians, nor homosexuals. And yet your message preaching the hatred towards these groups has to stop (which would be something I have no reason to disagree with) is biased nonsense as near as I can tell.

 

[ShivaFan]

I now see where the confusion is coming from.

I am not saying the majority of Americans and Eudopeans are walking around with "hate agendas". In fact nothing could be further from the truth.

Americans and Europeans in the majority are the most open, tolerant, scientifically and politically progressuve as well. There is no better place for a homosexual or a Christian (true Christian) and others to escape from persecution than America and Europe.

But as with every society, hatred exists at certain levels. Not to the extent it does as in Islamic states and areas of Africa, but even in America it exists.

But among the limitations of such hate and bigotry in America and Europe, though much less of bigotry than other society, where it does exist it is now Christians and homosexuals, and now increasingly we see politicians trying to drive hate agendas against the rich. But in America and Europe, this hate can be turned around.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Okay, thanks for clarifying, I understand your view a little better for it. I would still think Muslims would be a simple example of a group which receives more hate and distrust, though.
Do you have an example of what you see as hate agendas by politicians against the rich?

 

[ShivaFan]

I have a personal example repeated many times in my life. It didn't come from Christians. Nor Americans hating Hindus, America has been wonderful to me all my life with my Hinduism and I have never faced discrimination in regards.

It has come in the form of a blame game.

I don't need a history lesson on how many humans are vile, this has become so tired and agenda based it is boring in large part to me. I now hate birth based discrimination of every kind, be it forms of caste, forms of "historical guilt" simply because of whom you were born, discrimination based on what orientation you were born of, race and so on. Of course we see vile humans, duh, slavery existed before the American Civil War, existed over most of the world in 1864 though most Americans (and especially Christians) fought against it, and slavery was legal in areas of Africa perpetrated by "non-whites" and still exists today . Everyones past is full of guilt on the broad sense, but individualism has a way of correcting many ways and lead by individuals and not the collective.

That is why individualism and the freedom and diversity of individuals is so important over the herd and the collective. The greatest mass murderers and pale riders of famine have been the communists, far and above the Nazis. Diversity is actually a good thing, individualism promotes it, and one of the reasons Hinduism has always been natural for me is the huge diversity of Hinduism. Sure every "religion" has issues, but we do our best for the most part and our greatest danger is disease and then followed by big government and political agendas. One of the worst agendas is this tired crap thrown at me all my life from some rather odd people pointing their crooked finger at me saying "SLAAAAAvery days! You are guilty for SLAAAAAvery days! Now give me your money". Get lost, I never had any slaves.

Free yourself first by freeing yourself from such types of bigotry, including "guilt by history".