Have people forgotten about 9/11?

[Scuba Pete]

This is true, Pete, thanks for pointing it out. I put "documented" in there, since problem with the casualty counts from Iraq is that only the killings that make the news are getting counted, and the Western media is battened down in the Green Zone, too sheltered to do much reporting. Getting most of their information from the US military rather than the Iraqi people. So it's not surprising the counts are coming in low.

I thought you knew this, and I point this out since the "modified" reason for the war, since the WMDs proved to be a lie, was that we were "saving" the Iraqi peoples. I am sure that they are glad to be free as they lie in those coffins.

 

[Alceste]

I thought you knew this, and I point this out since the "modified" reason for the war, since the WMDs proved to be a lie, was that we were "saving" the Iraqi peoples. I am sure that they are glad to be free as they lie in those coffins.

Yeah, the public "reasons" have been very flexible, haven't they? I'll just assume the real reason, as outlined in detail in the PNAC's paper, is that they want to install permanent US military bases throughout the reason to make it easier for the US to fight wars on several fronts in the Middle East simultaneously.

 

[kai]

Yeah, the public "reasons" have been very flexible, haven't they? I'll just assume the real reason, as outlined in detail in the PNAC's paper, is that they want to install permanent US military bases throughout the reason to make it easier for the US to fight wars on several fronts in the Middle East simultaneously.

what exatly are you talking about ,you seem to have very little idea of what goes on in Afghaniastan and Iraq, and you seem to have no idea of the military capability of the US . this last statement is verging on the ridiculous.

 

[Dunemeister]

what exatly are you talking about ,you seem to have very little idea of what goes on in Afghaniastan and Iraq, and you seem to have no idea of the military capability of the US . this last statement is verging on the ridiculous.

It is nevertheless what the PNAC wants to do, ridiculous or not. And ridiculous or not, the "war on terror" as currently being prosecuted is the brainchild of signatories to the PNAC, including (but certainly not limited to) Paul Wolfowitz and Dick Cheney.

 

[kai]

It is nevertheless what the PNAC wants to do, ridiculous or not. And ridiculous or not, the "war on terror" as currently being prosecuted is the brainchild of signatories to the PNAC, including (but certainly not limited to) Paul Wolfowitz and Dick Cheney.

and!
could you elaberate?
i mean are you one of these "American empire" theorists?
or How would you conduct the war on terror?
or is the no such war ? or no such threat?

 

[Alceste]

and!
could you elaberate?
i mean are you one of these "American empire" theorists?
or How would you conduct the war on terror?
or is the no such war ? or no such threat?

There is no such war. The whole concept is cynical propaganda - they have given the US an undefined enemy to justify a program of constant, endless war. By calling it a "war on terror" rather than, say "war on al Qaeda" or "war on the Taliban", they can keep redefining "terror" to mean "any country we want to invade and any government we wish to overthrow". It's the same idea behind the "cold war" and "red scare" propaganda, where the public was whipped into a frenzy of irrational fear of communism (not the USSR, which would have been reasonable). By doing this the US public was persuaded to support CIA-sponsored terrorism in Central America to overthrow their democratically elected socialist governments and replace them with bloodthirsty puppet dictators.

There is a threat of the US being the target of terrorist attacks. This should be obvious, with even the most general familiarity of US foreign policy - through their incessant violence and interference in the politics of sovereign nations, they've made enemies all over the world, and are making more every day. The best way to minimize the risk is up for debate, but the bottom line is that we are all vulnerable to terrorist attacks, in every country in the world in varying degrees. Even if the US overthrows every government in the world that looks at them funny, there will still be a threat of terrorist attack. Even if the world becomes an enlightened globe of peace, justice, democracy and euphoric, endless consumerism there will still be a threat of terrorist attack.

There are nutters in the world. You may even have one next door. You think the way Bush has been dealing with it (mass murder and endless war on multiple fronts) is better than investigating and working to avert specific terrorist threats?

 

[kai]

the war on terror which you say doesn't exist is fought by our security forces on a daily basis. most people are shielded from it by the security efforts to stop attacks but you must have noticed the occasional Islamic Extremist trying to blow people up here in the UK.I believe it is a wAR as never before have we been faced with such a diversity of groups foreign and home grown who have the same objectives

I suppose we could pull out of Afghanistan and Iraq come home get under the Quilt and hope the nasty men will go away.

and these enemies we make all over the world who are they exactly anybody who's not a psychopath? i would be interested in knowing which peace loving democratic nation has turned against us due to our foreign policy

 

[Alceste]

the war on terror which you say doesn't exist is fought by our security forces on a daily basis. most people are shielded from it by the security efforts to stop attacks but you must have noticed the occasional Islamic Extremist trying to blow people up here in the UK.I believe it is a wAR as never before have we been faced with such a diversity of groups foreign and home grown who have the same objectives

I suppose we could pull out of Afghanistan and Iraq come home get under the Quilt and hope the nasty men will go away.

and these enemies we make all over the world who are they exactly anybody who's not a psychopath? i would be interested in knowing which peace loving democratic nation has turned against us due to our foreign policy

Are you aware the US conspired with others to overthrow a democratically elected government in Iran?

In 1951 Prime Minister Mohammed Mosaddeq received the vote required from the parliament to nationalize the British-owned oil industry, in a situation known as the Abadan Crisis. Despite British pressure, including an economic blockade, the nationalization continued. Mossadegh was briefly removed from power in 1952 but was quickly re-appointed by the shah, due to an overwhelming majority in parliament supporting him, and he, in turn, forced the Shah into a brief exile in August 1953. A military coup headed by his former minister of the Interior and retired army general Fazlollah Zahedi, with the active support of the intelligence services of the British (MI6) and US (CIA) governments - including mass propaganda leaflet dropping (slogans such as; "Up with Communism, Down with Ala" and "Down with Islam, up with Communism" – designed specifically to turn the population against Mossadegh, as well as the agents of CIA and MI6 (dressed as Mossadegh supporters) spurting machine guns into crowds (known as Operation Ajax), forced Mossadegh from office on August 19. Mossadegh was arrested and tried for treason by an un-official military tribunal, (Mossadegh was imprisoned and his foreign minister, Hossein Fatemi, executed) while Zahedi succeeded him as prime minister, and suppressed opposition to the Shah, specifically the National Front and Communist Tudeh Party.


In return for the US support the Shah agreed, in 1954, to allow an international consortium of British (40% of shares), American (40%), French (6%), and Dutch (14%) companies to run the Iranian oil facilities for the next 25 years. The international consortium agreed to a fifty-fifty split of profits with Iran but would not allow Iran to audit their accounts to confirm the consortium was reporting profits properly, nor would they allow Iran to have members on their board of directors.

You surprised many people in Iran are irritated with the US and the UK?

 

[kai]

Are you aware the US conspired with others to overthrow a democratically elected government in Iran?

yes

You surprised many people in Iran are irritated with the US and the UK?

no i was going to say they are ideological opposites but you have an outdated reasoning

i am talking about the iran of 2008 you are talking about the 1950s

 

[PureX]

no i was going to say they are ideological opposites but you have an outdated reasoning

i am talking about the iran of 2008 you are talking about the 1950s

It was the Reagan administration that gave Saddam poison gas and helped him to use it effectively against Iran in the Iran-Iraq war. That wasn't the 1950s, it was the 1980s. By the way, it was Donald Rumsfeld who personally interfaced with Saddam on that dirty little task.

 

[Aqualung]

People haven't forgotten about 9/11 - they've just put it in perspective.

 

[PureX]

There is no worse tyranny than to force a man to pay for what he does not want merely because you think it would be good for him.

Oh, I think there's a whole lot of tyrannies that are worse then that.

There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences.

Well, when you live on your own planet, and so effect no one but yourself with your actions, then you can damn well do as you please, and take the consequences.

 

[Aqualung]

Oh, I think there's a whole lot of tyrannies that are worse then that.
Well, when you live on your own planet, and so effect no one but yourself with your actions, then you can damn well do as you please, and take the consequences.

Are you debating my signature in a completely unrelated thread? :no: Sad. If I could give negative frubals I would.

 

[kai]

It was the Reagan administration that gave Saddam poison gas and helped him to use it effectively against Iran in the Iran-Iraq war. That wasn't the 1950S, it was the 1980s. By the way, it was Donald Rumsfeld who personally interfaced with Saddam on that dirty little task.

no your right that was the eighties, don't forget France and the Soviet union were major arms suppliers to Iraq , while Yugoslavia supplied both sides. North Korea and China supplied Iran, German firms such as Karl Kobe helped build Iraqi chemical weapons facilities such as laboratories, bunkers, an administrative building, and first production buildings in the early 1980s under the cover of a pesticide plant. Other German firms sent 1,027 tons of precursors of mustard gas, sarin, tabun, and tear gasses in all. This work allowed Iraq to produce 150 tons of mustard agent and 60 tons of Tabun in 1983 and 1984 respectively, continuing throughout the decade. Five other German firms supplied equipment to manufacture botulin toxin and mycotoxin for germ warfare. In 1988, German engineers presented centrifuge data that helped Iraq expand its nuclear weapons program. Laboratory equipment and other information was provided, involving many German engineers. All told, 52% of Iraq's international chemical weapon equipment was of German origin. The State Establishment for Pesticide Production (SEPP) ordered culture media and incubators from Germany's Water Engineering Trading.

we could go on. do you think it has some significance to the 911 attacks?


wiki

 

[Alceste]

no your right that was the eighties, don't forget France and the Soviet union were major arms suppliers to Iraq , while Yugoslavia supplied both sides. North Korea and China supplied Iran, German firms such as Karl Kobe helped build Iraqi chemical weapons facilities such as laboratories, bunkers, an administrative building, and first production buildings in the early 1980s under the cover of a pesticide plant. Other German firms sent 1,027 tons of precursors of mustard gas, sarin, tabun, and tear gasses in all. This work allowed Iraq to produce 150 tons of mustard agent and 60 tons of Tabun in 1983 and 1984 respectively, continuing throughout the decade. Five other German firms supplied equipment to manufacture botulin toxin and mycotoxin for germ warfare. In 1988, German engineers presented centrifuge data that helped Iraq expand its nuclear weapons program. Laboratory equipment and other information was provided, involving many German engineers. All told, 52% of Iraq's international chemical weapon equipment was of German origin. The State Establishment for Pesticide Production (SEPP) ordered culture media and incubators from Germany's Water Engineering Trading.

we could go on. do you think it has some significance to the 911 attacks?


wiki

I think that's the whole point: Iraq had nothing to do with the 911 attacks. I thought we were talking about reasons people might have for despising the US, besides "they hate our freedom". I mean, you specifically asked for an example of a nation that had reasonable anti-American sentiment, and that's how Iran came into the discussion. The US is the world's number one arms supplier. My guess is that any country where these arms are being sold to brutal dictators or oppressive regimes (and there are plenty) has just cause to be annoyed, even to the point of bringing the violence home to American soil.

 

[PureX]

no your right that was the eighties, don't forget France and the Soviet union were major arms suppliers to Iraq , while Yugoslavia supplied both sides. North Korea and China supplied Iran, German firms such as Karl Kobe helped build Iraqi chemical weapons facilities such as laboratories, bunkers, an administrative building, and first production buildings in the early 1980s under the cover of a pesticide plant. Other German firms sent 1,027 tons of precursors of mustard gas, sarin, tabun, and tear gasses in all. This work allowed Iraq to produce 150 tons of mustard agent and 60 tons of Tabun in 1983 and 1984 respectively, continuing throughout the decade. Five other German firms supplied equipment to manufacture botulin toxin and mycotoxin for germ warfare. In 1988, German engineers presented centrifuge data that helped Iraq expand its nuclear weapons program. Laboratory equipment and other information was provided, involving many German engineers. All told, 52% of Iraq's international chemical weapon equipment was of German origin. The State Establishment for Pesticide Production (SEPP) ordered culture media and incubators from Germany's Water Engineering Trading.

we could go on. do you think it has some significance to the 911 attacks?


wiki

It was illegal for us to give poison weapons to Iraq directly (according to various treaties that we'd signed), so we used the cover of corporations in other countries to give Saddam the poison gas. But the fact is that we didn't want either side to win the Iran-Iraq war, so we shored up the losers just enough to keep them from losing (and that was Iraq) by providing them with our old poison gas weapons. And the result was the brutal deaths of many Iranian soldiers and the eventual stale-mate of the Iran-Iraq war, thanks to our meddling. Such behavior on our part is just one example in a long litany of justifiable complaints against the United States and it's deliberate manipulation of events in Arab nations designed to further U.S. desires (oil) at the terrible expense of the lives of Arab (Muslim) peoples.

So when Bin Laden looked around for a scape goat to focus his lust for jihad on, as a part of his desire to claim power in the Arab world for himself, the United States was the obvious choice of an enemy. Muslims all over the world already despised us for the way we had been behaving in that part of the world, all he needed was for us to station some troops somewhere on "Muslim soil" so that he could use Islamic scriptures to declare holy war on us and of course we obliged him on that with the first Iraq war. From then on he was able to hold us up as the great infidel aggressors and use us as the rallying cry for his new jihad (a jihad in which he saw himself becoming the leader of a new Muslim renaissance).

The connection between Iraq and Afghanistan is not Al Quaida, it's us. Militant Muslims consider both countries part of the territory of Islam, and any foreign forces are to be repelled from the territory of Islam by jihad according to Muslim scriptures. As long as we keep soldiers on "Muslim territory" there will be militant Islamic jihadists trying to attack them/us as in a holy war. This is the root of cause of Islamic terrorism against the United States and other nations around the world. We made ourselves the target of their hatred by our own deplorable behavior. And we continue to exacerbate that hatred as long as we maintain a military presence in any predominantly Islamic country.

 

[kai]

I think that's the whole point: Iraq had nothing to do with the 911 attacks. I thought we were talking about reasons people might have for despising the US, besides "they hate our freedom". I mean, you specifically asked for an example of a nation that had reasonable anti-American sentiment, and that's how Iran came into the discussion. The US is the world's number one arms supplier. My guess is that any country where these arms are being sold to brutal dictators or oppressive regimes (and there are plenty) has just cause to be annoyed, even to the point of bringing the violence home to American soil.

yes but they dont call the US the great satan for selling arms everyone and his dog sells arms,

 

[kai]

It was illegal for us to give poison weapons to Iraq directly (according to various treaties that we'd signed), so we used the cover of corporations in other countries to give Saddam the poison gas. But the fact is that we didn't want either side to win the Iran-Iraq war, so we shored up the losers just enough to keep them from losing (and that was Iraq) by providing them with our old poison gas weapons. And the result was the brutal deaths of many Iranian soldiers and the eventual stale-mate of the Iran-Iraq war, thanks to our meddling. Such behavior on our part is just one example in a long litany of justifiable complaints against the United States and it's deliberate manipulation of events in Arab nations designed to further U.S. desires (oil) at the terrible expense of the lives of Arab (Muslim) peoples.

So when Bin Laden looked around for a scape goat to focus his lust for jihad on, as a part of his desire to claim power in the Arab world for himself, the United States was the obvious choice of an enemy. Muslims all over the world already despised us for the way we had been behaving in that part of the world, all he needed was for us to station some troops somewhere on "Muslim soil" so that he could use Islamic scriptures to declare holy war on us and of course we obliged him on that with the first Iraq war. From then on he was able to hold us up as the great infidel aggressors and use us as the rallying cry for his new jihad (a jihad in which he saw himself becoming the leader of a new Muslim renaissance).
scapegoat is the right word
The connection between Iraq and Afghanistan is not Al Quaida, it's us. Militant Muslims consider both countries part of the territory of Islam, and any foreign forces are to be repelled from the territory of Islam by jihad according to Muslim scriptures. As long as we keep soldiers on "Muslim territory" there will be militant Islamic jihadists trying to attack them/us as in a holy war. This is the root of cause of Islamic terrorism against the United States and other nations around the world. We made ourselves the target of their hatred by our own deplorable behavior. And we continue to exacerbate that hatred as long as we maintain a military presence in any predominantly Islamic country.

yes the connection is you , because you are seen as the leader of the west, the land of war as opposed to the land of Islam,they want you dead your country destroyed and the whole world should be Muslim territory not just the existing ones that are Islamic. you make yourselves a target by interfering in their plans and standing in their way whether its in Afghanistan or Iraq or in London, or this weekend in a little town called Exeter Engandwhere they tried to set of a couple of nail bombs.

the root cause of Islamic terrorism is Islamic terrorists. you can stay out of it , become isolationist,go home and let them fester and grow untill you have to deal with it later . but beleive me deal with it you will

 

[PureX]

yes the connection is you , because you are seen as the leader of the west, the land of war as oppossed to the land of Islam,they want you dead your country destroyed and the whole world should be Muslim territory not just the existing ones that are Islamic. you make yourselves a target by interfearing in thier plans whether its in afghanistan or Iraq or in london, or this weekend in a little town called Exeter Engandwhere they tried to set of a couple of nail bombs.

the root cause of Islamic terrorism is islamic terrorists. period

This is a gross and highly prejudiced over-statement. What they want is all foreign soldiers out of their Islamic lands. And what they want is for outside nations to stop meddling in the affairs of Islamic nations for the sake of their own greed (oil) and to the harm of the nations in which they meddle. These are things we would want for ourselves, if we were in their position.

They do not want to turn the whole world into one Muslim nation any more than Christians want to turn the whole world into one Christian nation. Such extremism will fade when the more basic and reasonable desires are met.

 

[kai]

This is a gross and highly prejudiced over-statement. What they want is all foreign soldiers out of their Islamic lands. And what they want is for outside nations to stop meddling in the affairs of Islamic nations for the sake of their own greed (oil) and to the harm of the nations in which they meddle. These are things we would want for ourselves, if we were in their position.

They do not want to turn the whole world into one Muslim nation any more than Christians want to turn the whole world into one Christian nation.

you obviously know very little about the goals of tawheed and Islam and the Taliban and Alquieda , what do you think they mean by the land of war and the land of Islam , and what do you think they mean by the return of the Caliphate.
The principal stated aims of al-Qaeda are to drive Americans and American influence out of all Muslim nations, especially Saudi Arabia; destroy Israel; and topple pro-Western dictatorships around the Middle East. Bin Laden has also said that he wishes to unite all Muslims and establish, by force if necessary, an Islamic nation adhering to the rule of the first Caliphs.
According to bin Laden's 1998 fatwa it is the duty of Muslims around the world to wage holy war on the U.S., American citizens, and Jews. Muslims who do not heed this call are declared apostates
Al-Qaeda's ideology, often referred to as "jihadism," is marked by a willingness to kill "apostate" —and Shiite—Muslims and an emphasis on jihad.

oh and bye the way i am prejudiced against the murdering scum, arent you?, or are you going to end the discussion by using the ultimate literary weapon of mass destruction the acusation of islamaphobia