Have people forgotten about 9/11?

[UnityNow101]

After having watched some of that "Zeitgiest" movie (I've ordered the DVD), I am really starting to wonder about all that 9/11 stuff and "the war on terror".

:clap

Thank you for attempting to put this thread back together and on track again. I haven't seen "Zeitgiest" but would like to. What is the gist of the film and what is the information presented that causes you to question the 9/11 stuff and the "war on terror?"

 

[kadzbiz]

:clap Thank you for attempting to put this thread back together and on track again. I haven't seen "Zeitgiest" but would like to. What is the gist of the film and what is the information presented that causes you to question the 9/11 stuff and the "war on terror?"

I wasn't sure if you were being sarcastic, but I think you weren't. I didn't realise the topic was so far off track because I only read the OP, I'm sorry to say. The gist of the film? Well, to put it simply, it would appear that the US govt may have suckered in its people yet again for their own purposes. Get the DVD. It's pretty cheap.

 

[sandandfoam]

My original position was that killing is never justified.

I agree. If someone laid a hand on any of my children I would do them serious violence. BUT I would be wrong to do so. What is excuseable or understandable is not necessarily right.

 

[Scuba Pete]

scuba pete tell me how would you deal with the headhunters of the tawhid and Jihad group?

So far, I have been able to escape all harm! Avoidance is usually the BEST defense. I know that's a hard concept for some to accept.

Here is a real truth. In the ocean, MOST of the injuries caused by aquatic life are DEFENSIVE in nature. If you stick your hand into that hole, don't blame the moray ell for biting it. Right now, we have INVADED someone else's home land. We have stuck our hand into their hole and you wonder why we are bitten? I would imagine that if we got the hell out of there, our casualties would diminish immediately, and then they can go to work creating their own government with out us bothering them.

 

[sandandfoam]

It was reported in the paper here today that the occupation is costing $411 million per day ireland.com - The Irish Times - Tue, May 20, 2008 - Old grievances chill me, so what must Iraqis feel?
That is a huge amount of money. Who is making the profit ? Is how that money is being distributed in the public domain ?

 

[Scuba Pete]

Who is making the profit ? Is how that money is being distributed in the public domain ?

Haliburton and all the rest of Shrub's cronies are simply raking it in. It's great business for them, while the rest of the country is sliding into a depression. It's largely why we have $4.00 gasoline now and are looking at $8.00 gasoline in the near future.

 

[Joe_Stocks]

Hi Unity,

These "what-if" games are really quite silly. How about just accept what I have said. I personally could not and will never kill another person, for ANY reason.

They are only silly because of how it makes you look. People get raped, people get killed. And you are on record that you wouldn't kill a person that was committing an evil act. I think there is a good phrase for that: pacifism is cowardice masquerading as virtue.

 

[Scuba Pete]

They are only silly because of how it makes you look.

Shenanigans!!! Please tell me: what would Jesus do? Do you think he would TAKE a life like that? Perhaps your Christianity is so far off of the "Love your Neighbor" map, that you just can't believe that others can do it! Then again, you might just believe that Jesus would condone bombing the innocents. Unlike you, I just can't believe that my Lord is a war monger promoting violence.

 

[Joe_Stocks]

Hi Scuba,

Jesus called us to serve the least, the powerless. Protecting them from being killed and terrorized would fall into that call.

 

[Scuba Pete]

Hi Scuba,

Jesus called us to serve the least, the powerless. Protecting them from being killed and terrorized would fall into that call.

Did you type this with a STRAIGHT face? There are more civilians being killed EVERY DAY than at any time Sadamn was in power! Perhaps you feel that killing them simply puts them out of their misery??? How sad.

 

[Joe_Stocks]

Hi Scuba,

Did you type this with a STRAIGHT face? There are more civilians being killed EVERY DAY than at any time Sadamn was in power! Perhaps you feel that killing them simply puts them out of their misery??? How sad.

You want to provide evidence proving this?

 

[kai]

So far, I have been able to escape all harm! Avoidance is usually the BEST defense. I know that's a hard concept for some to accept.

Here is a real truth. In the ocean, MOST of the injuries caused by aquatic life are DEFENSIVE in nature. If you stick your hand into that hole, don't blame the moray ell for biting it. Right now, we have INVADED someone else's home land. We have stuck our hand into their hole and you wonder why we are bitten? I would imagine that if we got the hell out of there, our casualties would diminish immediately, and then they can go to work creating their own government with out us bothering them.

but its not our caualties i am talking about pete these guys are an anti Shia group they kill civilians, there is no equivilant in the aquatic world to man is there . we can indeed leave them to it that is an option ,i am afraid i stand on the side of affirmative military action against genocidal maniacs whether they are Iraqi, european,african and to my shame at the innactions of my government who doesnt intervene enough.

 

[Alceste]

but its not our caualties i am talking about pete these guys are an anti Shia group they kill civilians, there is no equivilant in the aquatic world to man is there . we can indeed leave them to it that is an option ,i am afraid i stand on the side of affirmative military action against genocidal maniacs whether they are Iraqi, european,african and to my shame at the innactions of my government who doesnt intervene enough.

Do you think your country can afford more "interventions"? Their current "interventions" in Iraq and Afghanistan are destroying your economy, and in all likelihood the debt Bush has plunged the US into will never be repaid.

It's a bit disingenuous to wring our hands about the sectarian violence in Iraq without admitting the US / UK invasion kicked it off in the first place by creating a power vaccuum and a state of violent anarchy where before there was simply an uneasy and oppressive peace.

American violence CAUSED this problem. How do you reckon the problems caused by this disastrous invasion can be solved by continuing the same policy of slaughter and torture in the place of diplomacy and trade?

 

[kai]

Do you think your country can afford more "interventions"? Their current "interventions" in Iraq and Afghanistan are destroying your economy, and in all likelihood the debt Bush has plunged the US into will never be repaid.

yes indeed it can and should to our shame in , Rwanda ,dharfur etc we have not

It's a bit disingenuous to wring our hands about the sectarian violence in Iraq without admitting the US / UK invasion kicked it off in the first place by creating a power vaccuum and a state of violent anarchy where before there was simply an uneasy and oppressive peace. yes i know some people would prefer we left the Taliban and Saddam in place but i am not one of them you wring your hands i would get on with the job

American violence CAUSED this problem. How do you reckon the problems caused by this disastrous invasion can be solved by continuing the same policy of slaughter and torture in the place of diplomacy and trade?

diplomacy with the headhunters of Tawheed and jihad and trade with the Taliban why didnt i think of that?

 

[Alceste]

diplomacy with the headhunters of Tawheed and jihad and trade with the Taliban why didnt i think of that?

So you're saying, given the choice between the wholesale slaughter of innocent people who have the misfortune to be living in the same country as the Taliban, or pressuring the Taliban to agree to some human rights related obligations for the privilege of participating in international trade, you'd go with the slaughter?

You should apply for a job at the White House, then.

 

[kai]

So you're saying, given the choice between the wholesale slaughter of innocent people who have the misfortune to be living in the same country as the Taliban, or pressuring the Taliban to agree to some human rights related obligations for the privilege of participating in international trade, you'd go with the slaughter?

You should apply for a job at the White House, then.

bit of a straw man argument , thats not how it happened is it, and its because of people with your sentiments mostly working at the UN that people are slaughterd all over the world because no one has the balls to stop it.

 

[Alceste]

bit of a straw man argument , thats not how it happened is it, and its because of people with your sentiments mostly working at the UN that people are slaughterd all over the world because no one has the balls to stop it.

How is acknowledging the indiscriminate slaughter of civilians in a discussion of US military intervention a "straw man"? What is it you think the US is doing over there anyway? Making paper dolls for little kiddies? Building an amusement park?

You may think the murder of civilians is a side issue to the whole Iraq war thing, but I guarantee you the relatives of the 92,000 documented civilian casualties strongly disagree with you.

 

[Scuba Pete]

the relatives of the 92,000 documented civilian casualties strongly disagree with you.

By all indications, this number is extremely low. There are estimates that it represents anywhere from a third to only one tenth of the actual civilian death toll. What is obvious is that no matter how you count it, this FAR EXCEEDS the number of civilians killed here in the US during the terrorist attack of the WTC. What makes this an even bigger travesty is that Iraq and it's citizens had absolutely NOTHING to do with any attack here on US soil. Rather than fighting terrorists, we have become unwelcome invaders and terrorists in our own right.

 

[kai]

How is acknowledging the indiscriminate slaughter of civilians in a discussion of US military intervention a "straw man"? What is it you think the US is doing over there anyway? Making paper dolls for little kiddies? Building an amusement park?

You may think the murder of civilians is a side issue to the whole Iraq war thing, but I guarantee you the relatives of the 92,000 documented civilian casualties strongly disagree with you.

i have news for you the taliban operate in Afghanistan not Iraq,

and i am talking about the murder of civilians what do you think is going on there? because i can tell you straight from the horses mouth, the british army are training the Iraqi army and police force to defend themselves from several groups of murdering scum who wish to turn the country into a stone age year zero.

what the americans are doing? well they are not planting bombs in food markets or leaving bodies of local councilors outside their homes minus a head but ,you will have to talk to an american whos been there or knows something about it.

 

[Alceste]

By all indications, this number is extremely low. There are estimates that it represents anywhere from a third to only one tenth of the actual civilian death toll. What is obvious is that no matter how you count it, this FAR EXCEEDS the number of civilians killed here in the US during the terrorist attack of the WTC. What makes this an even bigger travesty is that Iraq and it's citizens had absolutely NOTHING to do with any attack here on US soil. Rather than fighting terrorists, we have become unwelcome invaders and terrorists in our own right.

This is true, Pete, thanks for pointing it out. I put "documented" in there, since problem with the casualty counts from Iraq is that only the killings that make the news are getting counted, and the Western media is battened down in the Green Zone, too sheltered to do much reporting. Getting most of their information from the US military rather than the Iraqi people. So it's not surprising the counts are coming in low.