Have people forgotten about 9/11?

[PureX]

Al Quada is only a tiny fraction of Islam. They are the extremest of the extremists, and some of them will always exist just as there will always be a few Christian extremists around, too. But their size and effectiveness would be significantly diminished were it not for the deplorable behavior of the west, and the United States in particular, over the last 60 years (because of our greed and need for oil). It is because of our own persistent bad behavior toward Islamic nations that we are now facing a fairly large and somewhat effective Islamic extremist movement. However, were we to begin treating Islamic nations more respectfully, this would take much of the wind out of the sails of the extremist movement and would significantly diminish their size and effectiveness.

They exist because of us. We can't make them go away entirely, but we can control them by controlling our own behavior. But we have to get past the idea of wiping them out by violent force. That is not going to work and the harder we try the more of them we will create.

 

[Alceste]

PureX, you are so reasonable. frubals!

 

[kai]

Al Quada is only a tiny fraction of Islam. They are the extremest of the extremists, and some of them will always exist just as there will always be a few Christian extremists around, too. But their size and effectiveness would be significantly diminished were it not for the deplorable behavior of the west, and the United States in particular, over the last 60 years (because of our greed and need for oil). It is because of our own persistent bad behavior toward Islamic nations that we are now facing a fairly large and somewhat effective Islamic extremist movement. However, were we to begin treating Islamic nations more respectfully, this would take much of the wind out of the sails of the extremist movement and would significantly diminish their size and effectiveness.

They exist because of us. We can't make them go away entirely, but we can control them by controlling our own behavior. But we have to get past the idea of wiping them out by violent force. That is not going to work and the harder we try the more of them we will create.

the flaw in your argument is your very reasonableness, the fairly large and somewhat effective Islamic extremist movement you speak of wish to govern the Islamic countries, they exist because of their own ideology and their sails are powered by their own Divine wind.

 

[Alceste]

the flaw in your argument is your very reasonableness, the fairly large and somewhat effective Islamic extremist movement you speak of wish to govern the Islamic countries, they exist because of their own ideology and their sails are powered by their own Divine wind.

The flaw in yours, kai, is its unreasonableness. The countries the Islamic extremist movement wishes to govern are teeming with intelligent, moderate, reasonable people who want peace and will resist total theocracy, just as Americans are attempting to resist the neo-cons.

 

[PureX]

the flaw in your argument is your very reasonableness, the fairly large and somewhat effective Islamic extremist movement you speak of wish to govern the Islamic countries, they exist because of their own ideology and their sails are powered by their own Divine wind.

I disagree. Not with your assessment of their desire to rule Islam, but with their ability to do so. Most of Islam does NOT wish to be ruled by these idiot extremists any more than most of Christendom wants to be ruled by the various Christian extremists among them. And certainly none of the rest of the world wishes to be ruled by ANY religious faction.

The only way these extremists gain credibility among their own people is by our giving them a giant demon for them to whip up a uniting hatred against. Which is EXACTLY what we've been doing for so many years, and is EXACTLY what George Bush continued doing by invading Iraq. 9/11 actually had gained us some sympathy, and empathy, and willingness toward cooperation from Iran, because the vast majority of Iranian Muslims abhor these violent extremists like Al Quaida. But instead of using this moment in history to possibly begin some kind of useful dialogue and cooperation between Iran and the U.S., Bush decided to call them names and threaten a "crusade" against them and effectively slammed that door shut, again.

At this point, I can't imagine why the Iranians WOULDN'T hate us.

 

[kai]

The flaw in yours, kai, is its unreasonableness. The countries the Islamic extremist movement wishes to govern are teeming with intelligent, moderate, reasonable people who want peace and will resist total theocracy, just as Americans are attempting to resist the neo-cons.

then i hope they can resist the wind of change

 

[kai]

I disagree. Not with your assessment of their desire to rule Islam, but with their ability to do so. Most of Islam does NOT wish to be ruled by these idiot extremists any more than most of Christendom wants to be ruled by the various Christian extremists among them. And certainly none of the rest of the world wishes to be ruled by ANY religious faction.

The only way these extremists gain credibility among their own people is by our giving them a giant demon for them to whip up a uniting hatred against. Which is EXACTLY what we've been doing for so many years, and is EXACTLY what George Bush continued doing by invading Iraq. 9/11 actually had gained us some sympathy, and empathy, and willingness toward cooperation from Iran, because the vast majority of Iranian Muslims abhor these violent extremists like Al Quaida. But instead of using this moment in history to possibly begin some kind of useful dialogue and cooperation between Iran and the U.S., Bush decided to call them names and threaten a "crusade" against them and effectively slammed that door shut, again.

At this point, I can't imagine why the Iranians WOULDN'T hate us.

the demon is added fuel to the fire which was coming anyway and by the way Iran abhors Al-Qaeda because to Al-Qaeda Iran is an apostate state as are all shia, and you will have no sympathy while a Jewish state exists, from shia or Sunni,
i must agree to disagree as this argument grows stale. I wish you were right and an about face from the US would lead to the end ofthis extremism but i fear you are wrong. the extemism i speak of has never been encountered before, this is not the IRA or the red brigades this is an ancient spectre coming back to life.

 

[PureX]

the demon is added fuel to the fire which was coming anyway and by the way Iran abhors Al-Qaeda because to Al-Qaeda Iran is an apostate state as are all shia, and you will have no sympathy while a Jewish state exists, from shia or Sunni,
i must agree to disagree as this argument grows stale. I wish you were right and an about face from the US would lead to the end ofthis extremism but i fear you are wrong. the extemism i speak of has never been encountered before, this is not the IRA or the red brigades this is an ancient spectre coming back to life.

Actually, studies have been done. It turns out that people react pretty much the same way all over the world and throughout history to foreign military occupation. These Muslim "terrorists" aren't any different than Irish terrorists were, or the Tamil Tigers are in Sri Lanka, or any other weak force being occupied by a strong force anywhere else in the world. The weak force will always resort to "terror" tactics as long as the strong force occupies their homeland. And suicidal attacks it turns out is a fairly common terror tactic.

There was a book published recently about this very subject, but I can't recall the title ...

 

[Aqualung]

Actually, studies have been done. It turns out that people react pretty much the same way all over the world and throughout history to foreign military occupation. These Muslim "terrorists" aren't any different than Irish terrorists were, or the Tamil Tigers are in Sri Lanka, or any other weak force being occupied by a strong force anywhere else in the world. The weak force will always resort to "terror" tactics as long as the strong force occupies their homeland. And suicidal attacks it turns out is a fairly common terror tactic.

There was a book published recently about this very subject, but I can't recall the title ...

Comparably, those filthy Americans fought a guerilla war against the opression of the British empire in a time period when war was an aristocratic, ruled game. That was terror.

 

[kai]

Actually, studies have been done. It turns out that people react pretty much the same way all over the world and throughout history to foreign military occupation. These Muslim "terrorists" aren't any different than Irish terrorists were, or the Tamil Tigers are in Sri Lanka, or any other weak force being occupied by a strong force anywhere else in the world. The weak force will always resort to "terror" tactics as long as the strong force occupies their homeland. And suicidal attacks it turns out is a fairly common terror tactic.

There was a book published recently about this very subject, but I can't recall the title ...

well i have come to the conclusion that you really have no idea do you ? you really don't understand any of this. lets agree for a moment and bring the troops home and enter Into a kind of US led isolationism,we will not interfere in any Muslim nation and drop all support for Israel, we will not aid the governments of any country thats is faced with an Islamist terrorist problem like the Philippines or Bangla desh,problem solved all the bad guys have all gone away because its only he US that upsets them.magically the will no longer consider secular countries their enemies or Islamic counties that are not Islamic enough will become Islamic, Zionism will disappear and therefore they will have no Axe to grind. its called appeasement it works but not for long.

 

[kai]

Comparably, those filthy Americans fought a guerilla war against the opression of the British empire in a time period when war was an aristocratic, ruled game. That was terror.

comparable to what exactly? when the Turkish Hezbollah blew up two synagogues what was that comparable to?

 

[OutOfTime]

i personally think that america is al-qaeda. but the thing is that america isn't anything. the people who run it would be the ones behind the cia, mossad, and also al-qaeda.

of course i will never forget, this is the event that will go down in history as the start of ww3

 

[Aqualung]

comparable to what exactly? when the Turkish Hezbollah blew up two synagogues what was that comparable to?

Comparable to the fact that "terrorism" = "doesn't play by our country's rules of warfare" and "terrorism" = "fighting for something our country doesn't think you deserve". No, the weaponry wasn't comparable (you would be silly if you thought that was the point of my post), and thus casualty number and type obviously wouldn't be the same, but the idea is comparable.

 

[kai]

Comparable to the fact that "terrorism" = "doesn't play by our country's rules of warfare" and "terrorism" = "fighting for something our country doesn't think you deserve". No, the weaponry wasn't comparable (you would be silly if you thought that was the point of my post), and thus casualty number and type obviously wouldn't be the same, but the idea is comparable.

i didnt say the weaponry was comparable i asked you a question ,you have answered with the notion that the idea is comparable which forces me to ask what idea you are talking about , and are we on the same subject here ?,

are you telling me that the "american Terrorists" wanted to spread the idea of freedom around the world or that they wanted to implant their own brand of religious thought around the world. or that a british colony wanted the right to self rule.

so you think George Washington and co have the same basic idea as Mullah Mohammed Omar. or Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah and Osama bin Laden .

 

[Aqualung]

are you telling me that the "american Terrorists" wanted to spread the idea of freedom around the world or that they wanted to implant their own brand of religious thought around the world. or that a british colony wanted the right to self rule.

I'm sure those they were fighting against told similar stories (although more culturally applicable than yours) to fuel agression, yes. (My point is that "terrorist" is a completely subjective description. Who we think are terrorists are fighting for a lot of the same things we have fought for in the past, and the manner in which they fight is comparable to ways we have fought in the past, and we never label ourselves terrorists.)

 

[kai]

I'm sure those they were fighting against told similar stories (although more culturally applicable than yours) to fuel agression, yes. (My point is that "terrorist" is a completely subjective description. Who we think are terrorists are fighting for a lot of the same things we have fought for in the past, and the manner in which they fight is comparable to ways we have fought in the past, and we never label ourselves terrorists.)

the word terrorist may be a subjective description , maybe you could enlighten me as to which organisations are fighting for the same things you have fought for in the past.

 

[PureX]

kai,

The problem is that you're painting all of Islam as terrorists, and seeking world domination, which is simply not true. Once you understand that the terrorists are the extremists, and are NOT influential within modern Islam EXCEPT when we provide the Islamic world with a common threat to unite against, the solution becomes more clear. The idea is not that we simply remove ourselves from the picture as a form of appeasement, but that we learn to respect the culture of Islam and the rights of other sovereign nations so as to begin building positive relationships with the more moderate Muslim nations. Which is most of them. And through them, then, the extremists influence will be diminished and eventually marginalized, as they should be, and as they currently are in Christian nations.

 

[Scuba Pete]

Once you understand that the terrorists are the extremists, and are NOT influential within modern Islam EXCEPT when we provide the Islamic world with a common threat to unite against, the solution becomes more clear.

Amen Brother Purex! This is the genesis of Bigotry: the assumption that the actions of a few represent the actions of the majority or the entirety.

 

[Smoke]

The countries the Islamic extremist movement wishes to govern are teeming with intelligent, moderate, reasonable people who want peace and will resist total theocracy, just as Americans are attempting to resist the neo-cons.

Well, that's not very encouraging. American attempts to resist the neo-cons have been largely ineffective, and the neo-cons have -- illegally and unconstitutionally -- done pretty much whatever the hell they pleased since 2001.

 

[kai]

kai,

The problem is that you're painting all of Islam as terrorists, and seeking world domination, which is simply not true. Once you understand that the terrorists are the extremists, and are NOT influential within modern Islam EXCEPT when we provide the Islamic world with a common threat to unite against, the solution becomes more clear. The idea is not that we simply remove ourselves from the picture as a form of appeasement, but that we learn to respect the culture of Islam and the rights of other sovereign nations so as to begin building positive relationships with the more moderate Muslim nations. Which is most of them. And through them, then, the extremists influence will be diminished and eventually marginalized, as they should be, and as they currently are in Christian nations.

ha ha
i was waiting for that i have said no such thing my posts are very clear i mention organisations and people by name
you still dont get it ,moderate muslim nations have as much to fear as western ones its part of alquieda policy that muslim nations like Egypt and even Saudi arabia are not muslim enough.