Have the Rich Gone to War Against the Poor and Middle Class in America?

[dust1n]

You can live comfortably enough by most mankind's standards in a very small apartment or a hut, with no electricity and no running water - never drinking a single soft drink or eating a single meal at a restaurant - 99 percent of mankind has done so since the Stone Age. What makes you so special?

Um, because I work and produce for the society in which we exist, and not only that, but that my labor is actually just an investment for the owner of a company who makes significantly more money... keep following the chain, there are people who arguably attribute nothing positive to society and are rewards with millions of dollars, because they sell the substance I need to sustain...

Gee, if I just had a plot of land, and didn't have to pay taxes on that land, I would just stay on it and leave everyone else the **** alone, but that isn't the case. I was born into my position, and I contribute to the society with which I exist. I'm not asking for much wealth, but the slightest fraction of what the guy gets from exploiting my labor would be well appreciated.

So I'm not sure you really mean you just want to live comfortably. I think you mean that you want life's luxuries - and that's a whole other matter entirely.

'Luxury' is relative. Sure; shelter, food, and clothing is necessary; books, a computer with internet, and a way to get to work is hardly a luxury in comparison to what the society as a whole actually produces, or has the potential to produce.

Face it - the vast majority of humans have to work a significant ratio of their waking hours in exchange for food, clothing and shelter. Anything else is a luxury and in my opinion any day that you don't work at SOMETHING at least 8 hours is a day off and a true rarity - you're lucky to get one day of rest a week.

I have faced it. What you haven't face is that the vast majority of humans have to work a significant ratio of their waking hours in exchange for food, clothing and shelter, while about 5 percent of the nation lives in extreme luxury, for working arguably the same or less.

No, I'm not 'lucky' to get one day of the rest of the week. There are these things called 'worker's rights' which the Left helped to establish in this country a long, long time ago which made this not some random stroke of luck, but rather a right and benefit of contributing to society. This remained until Reagan came along.

 

[Magic Man]

I have to ask you one question, who ever told you that life was going to be fair or you would have this wonderful life? Life sucks and then you die.

Maybe you should try taking your own advice. Then you wouldn't be making your tired arguments about how it's "not fair" for you to have to pay for someone else's healthcare, and it's "not fair" for you to have to do this or that for someone else.

He who dies with the most toys wins. :slap:

No.

 

[Magic Man]

You can live comfortably enough by most mankind's standards in a very small apartment or a hut, with no electricity and no running water - never drinking a single soft drink or eating a single meal at a restaurant - 99 percent of mankind has done so since the Stone Age. What makes you so special?

Probably the fact that it's the year 2010. Unless, that is, you think we should live by the standards of 1,000 years ago. In that case, you should get off of here and get back in the kitchen.

So I'm not sure you really mean you just want to live comfortably. I think you mean that you want life's luxuries - and that's a whole other matter entirely.

No, I think he means he wants to live comfortably. Living comfortably includes a few "luxuries" by the standards of the 16th century.

Face it - the vast majority of humans have to work a significant ratio of their waking hours in exchange for food, clothing and shelter.

Who said they don't? The problem is if you're working that much, you should at least be making enough to live comfortably. You shouldn't have to be working 40+ hours a week just to live in a crappy apartment with no luxuries at all.

Anything else is a luxury and in my opinion any day that you don't work at SOMETHING at least 8 hours is a day off and a true rarity - you're lucky to get one day of rest a week.

Well, I'm glad you have such a workaholic view of life, but most of us don't. Sure, you should work hard, but work shouldn't be the main focus of your life. A day off should not be a rarity. It should be a regular thing, and you should get more than one day of rest a week. Of course, that's assuming you're a normal person wanting to live a fulfilling life and not work your fingers off until you die.

 

[Kathryn]

By WORK I am not talking about just your JOB.

Maintaining a home and property requires work and maintenance as well. I think it's reasonable to assume that a five day work week should be enough to support a lifestyle - and don't pull that minimum wage is unlivable thing on me because less than 6% of people in the US make minimum wage and the majority of those are very young, unskilled workers.

But if you work five days a week at an imcome producing full time job (which seems reasonable to me), and then work around your own place one day a week (I am including self improvement in that "work" definition) then you have six days of work and one day of rest.

Wow, what a novel idea.

 

[Kathryn]

I work and produce for the society in which we exist, and not only that, but that my labor is actually just an investment for the owner of a company who makes significantly more money... keep following the chain, there are people who arguably attribute nothing positive to society and are rewards with millions of dollars, because they sell the substance I need to sustain...

The owner of the company - let's talk about him for a bit. I don't know what company you work for, but most workers in this country work for smallish businesses that are privately owned so let's just go with that scenario for the sake of argument.

This guy, or woman, or small group of owners, carries most of the risk. He has to pay you your earned wages whether the company is making a profit or not. Not only that, he carries a benefits package that costs him a pretty penny as well. He also pays more taxes in more various forms than you are probably aware of.

I used to own a real estate company with about 25 employees. Did I make more money than them? For the most part yes - though I believe that a couple of the top producers actually cleared more money than I did. Anyway - I paid the lease on the building (NOT CHEAP!), I paid for the computer systems (also not cheap!), the MLS dues, the taxes and charges on various things, the secretarial help (including their benefits package), the various services to the facility, etc, the office supplies, etc., etc. I enjoyed being my own boss for awhile - till I figured out that it had a very heavy pricetag when it came to hours at work and responsibility. And in addition to expense and work - I carried the liability of the company. If one of my agents or employees made a mistake or did something unethical - the responsibility fell directly on me - PERSONALLY.

I could fire them - but then I had to clean up the mess while they went on down the road and worked somewhere else.

Now - sometimes I didn't come in to the office till 11 am. Sometimes I took off for several days in a row (though with technology, one is never really "off"). I think my employees might have told you, "Must be nice to be her - she just comes and goes as she pleases." Which was true - but I had earned that right. They also didn't see the times that I was up at the office till 1 am working on something, or writing a check to the tech guy for $6000 for services.

Gee, if I just had a plot of land, and didn't have to pay taxes on that land, I would just stay on it and leave everyone else the **** alone, but that isn't the case. I was born into my position, and I contribute to the society with which I exist. I'm not asking for much wealth, but the slightest fraction of what the guy gets from exploiting my labor would be well appreciated.

Everyone pays property taxes, even the guy you think is exploiting you. My property taxes are $4500 a year. Good thing they're a federal tax write-off. For now, anyway.

'Luxury' is relative. Sure; shelter, food, and clothing is necessary; books, a computer with internet, and a way to get to work is hardly a luxury in comparison to what the society as a whole actually produces, or has the potential to produce.

It's not just about what SOCIETY produces. Since when do you have the inherent right to something that someone else produces?

What you haven't face is that the vast majority of humans have to work a significant ratio of their waking hours in exchange for food, clothing and shelter, while about 5 percent of the nation lives in extreme luxury, for working arguably the same or less.

So five percent of the nation lives in extreme luxury and 95 percent of us work full time for a living? So what - screw them. I don't mind working and earning my own way. I couldn't care less how much money Paris Hilton inherits. She doesn't seem too happy to me anyway. I'd MUCH rather be me than her.

What's wrong with working 40 or 50 hours a week and then working around your own place or on self improvement for a few more hours a week? Is that TOO HARD? I personally find it rewarding.

No, I'm not 'lucky' to get one day of the rest of the week. There are these things called 'worker's rights' which the Left helped to establish in this country a long, long time ago which made this not some random stroke of luck, but rather a right and benefit of contributing to society. This remained until Reagan came along.

I didn't say you had to work six days a week for someone ELSE. Work also includes work around your own property and for self improvement. A five day work week (working at a company) is the norm for the vast majority of Americans who work.

 

[McBell]

By WORK I am not talking about just your JOB.

Maintaining a home and property requires work and maintenance as well. I think it's reasonable to assume that a five day work week should be enough to support a lifestyle - and don't pull that minimum wage is unlivable thing on me because less than 6% of people in the US make minimum wage and the majority of those are very young, unskilled workers.

But if you work five days a week at an imcome producing full time job (which seems reasonable to me), and then work around your own place one day a week (I am including self improvement in that "work" definition) then you have six days of work and one day of rest.

Wow, what a novel idea.

Damn good thing God took a day off.
If he hadn't you would have everyone working 24/7...

 

[Kathryn]

Probably the fact that it's the year 2010. Unless, that is, you think we should live by the standards of 1,000 years ago. In that case, you should get off of here and get back in the kitchen.

I didn't say return to the standards of 1,000 years ago. But I also don't believe it's anyone's "inherent right" to own a car, a cell phone for everyone in the family, and a flat screen TV with 400 channels.

My gosh, there is even a government program to update everyone's TELEVISIONS!!! Ridiculous!

Who said they don't? The problem is if you're working that much, you should at least be making enough to live comfortably. You shouldn't have to be working 40+ hours a week just to live in a crappy apartment with no luxuries at all.

I know there are exceptions, but the vast majority of people in the US who are working full time and living in crappy apartments are either young, unskilled, or have made some pretty bad decisions in their lives - or a combination of the three factors.

There is hope for all three of those issues though - the young mature and build careers and reach goals (if they make good decisions), the unskilled can improve their skills through experience, schooling, and self improvement, and those who perpetually make bad decisions can take responsibility for their mistakes and determine not to repeat them.

None of those fixes require government assistance though I am not opposed to government subsidized programs that address career placement and advancement, education, and life skills for those who are truly committed to working hard to improve their own situation.

Well, I'm glad you have such a workaholic view of life, but most of us don't.

Thanks for making my point for me. I'm not a workaholic. I work about 45 hours a week at my full time job, and then invest probably about 5-10 hours a week working on my own projects, property and needs of my family (my favorite sort of "work").

Sure, you should work hard, but work shouldn't be the main focus of your life. A day off should not be a rarity. It should be a regular thing, and you should get more than one day of rest a week. Of course, that's assuming you're a normal person wanting to live a fulfilling life and not work your fingers off until you die.

I believe and practice a five day work week, about 40-45 hours a week. Are you saying that's too much??? But I am also realistic enough to understand that owning a home (or renting one) and other property requires maintenance and an investment of time each week - and I call that work too. Also - for example, in between posts here this morning, I've been refinishing a coffee table. It looks great - but it was hard WORK. It has taken me hours. Last weekend we refinished our dining room table. It took all day Saturday - but hey, we got to drink beer while we did it, hang out together, and work outside in the gorgeous spring sunshine. Now - that was WORK but it was rewarding emotionally and the table looks fantastic. Well worth the work.

Same with my job - I enjoy it and get a lot of personal satisfaction from my work. The day flies! I simply wouldn't work long term in a job that didn't give me some sense of personal satisfaction.

If that makes me a workaholic, then I plead guilty as charged. But I sure am a happy, contented person.

 

[Kathryn]

(I'm going to post this ridiculously happy post on the two threads that seem to be addressing basically the same issue.)

If you guys will excuse me, I am getting off the internet because I have a lot of WORK to do. We're moving this week into our new house - the one that we've worked hard to be able to afford - and I need to get a lot of packing done. I'm going to be packing up all the material things that I've earned all my life.

It will be hard work and won't feel like a weekend off - but it will be worth it when we get those keys to our new place later this week - and walk through that doorway and smell that new house smell!

I've come a long way from that crappy apartment I was living in back in my twenties. I made a lot of bad choices early on and have paid dearly for them over my lifetime. But I've also worked hard for thirty years and so has my husband.

God has restored to us everything we've lost over the years due to poor choices. I am incredibly grateful for everything I have - but I also know that I could lose it all and still have the two most precious things in the world - my faith, and the love of my family.

I don't care if some people have more than me - I never have. I believe that contentment is an attitude and it doesn't depend on material things. I remember that crappy apartment I lived in in my twenties, and I distinctly remember the sense of pride I had in a sparkling clean floor, or the wildflowers I picked and put in a mason jar in the middle of that table someone gave us. I thought it was beautiful.

Peace out!

 

[Watchmen]

By WORK I am not talking about just your JOB.

Maintaining a home and property requires work and maintenance as well. I think it's reasonable to assume that a five day work week should be enough to support a lifestyle - and don't pull that minimum wage is unlivable thing on me because less than 6% of people in the US make minimum wage and the majority of those are very young, unskilled workers.

But if you work five days a week at an imcome producing full time job (which seems reasonable to me), and then work around your own place one day a week (I am including self improvement in that "work" definition) then you have six days of work and one day of rest.

Wow, what a novel idea.

The working poor are not defined by the minimum wage and are much greater than 6%.

 

[Watchmen]

(I'm going to post this ridiculously happy post on the two threads that seem to be addressing basically the same issue.)

If you guys will excuse me, I am getting off the internet because I have a lot of WORK to do. We're moving this week into our new house - the one that we've worked hard to be able to afford - and I need to get a lot of packing done. I'm going to be packing up all the material things that I've earned all my life.

It will be hard work and won't feel like a weekend off - but it will be worth it when we get those keys to our new place later this week - and walk through that doorway and smell that new house smell!

I've come a long way from that crappy apartment I was living in back in my twenties. I made a lot of bad choices early on and have paid dearly for them over my lifetime. But I've also worked hard for thirty years and so has my husband.

God has restored to us everything we've lost over the years due to poor choices. I am incredibly grateful for everything I have - but I also know that I could lose it all and still have the two most precious things in the world - my faith, and the love of my family.

I don't care if some people have more than me - I never have. I believe that contentment is an attitude and it doesn't depend on material things. I remember that crappy apartment I lived in in my twenties, and I distinctly remember the sense of pride I had in a sparkling clean floor, or the wildflowers I picked and put in a mason jar in the middle of that table someone gave us. I thought it was beautiful.

Peace out!

I am moving soon too and am going through the same thing. Only difference is I can recognize some don't have the same opportunity as me - often because of a system that keeps the working poor and their children in the same class.

 

[Sunstone]

It's pretty sneaky the way this thread has been turned from a thread on whether the rich are at war with the rest of us into a thread on something else. I take it, it was obvious that the rich are at war with the rest of us.

Horatio Alger is alive and well -- and a broken record -- on RF.

 

[Kathryn]

I am moving soon too and am going through the same thing. Only difference is I can recognize some don't have the same opportunity as me - often because of a system that keeps the working poor and their children in the same class.

I never said that some people aren't stuck in a situation that seems bleak and that it's hard for some Americans to get ahead.

You're right - some don't have the SAME opportunities that you have. Sometimes people are the victims of OTHER people's mistakes and poor choices. Sometimes they are the victims of their own mistakes and poor choices also.

And sometimes they may not have your SAME opportunities - they have DIFFERENT opportunities.

But to imply or believe that vast numbers of "working poor" are perpetually stuck in their own poverty simply because of a system or da man - rather than because of a variety of reasons that INCLUDE their own behaviors - is not only naive, but also definitely hard to prove.

Everyone who wishes they were in a better situation has their own reasons and excuses for NOT being where or what they wish they were. Some of these reasons are unfortunate facts (like - I will never be a neurosurgeon or an astronaut because my math skills are not strong enough, nor will I ever be an Olympic sharpshooter because I don't want to practice on the range as much as would be required). Others are avoidable or are able to be overcome by personal strength and talents.

But it usually takes a great deal of effort to become much more affluent than you are at present. Most people don't win the lottery, inherit a lot of money, or invent Post It Notes.

 

[Watchmen]

I never said that some people aren't stuck in a situation that seems bleak and that it's hard for some Americans to get ahead.

You're right - some don't have the SAME opportunities that you have. Sometimes people are the victims of OTHER people's mistakes and poor choices. Sometimes they are the victims of their own mistakes and poor choices also.

And sometimes they may not have your SAME opportunities - they have DIFFERENT opportunities.

But to imply or believe that vast numbers of "working poor" are perpetually stuck in their own poverty simply because of a system or da man - rather than because of a variety of reasons that INCLUDE their own behaviors - is not only naive, but also definitely hard to prove.

Everyone who wishes they were in a better situation has their own reasons and excuses for NOT being where or what they wish they were. Some of these reasons are unfortunate facts (like - I will never be a neurosurgeon or an astronaut because my math skills are not strong enough, nor will I ever be an Olympic sharpshooter because I don't want to practice on the range as much as would be required). Others are avoidable or are able to be overcome by personal strength and talents.

But it usually takes a great deal of effort to become much more affluent than you are at present. Most people don't win the lottery, inherit a lot of money, or invent Post It Notes.

Downplaying the system is naive.

I'm well aware people can move up through risk and hardwork (my grandpa was a janitor...I'm a lawyer...pretty quick turn around), but I recognize that many don't have the same opportunity. Perhaps we should take a field trip to Appalachia.

 

[Kathryn]

Been there, done that. And that area has one of the highest rates of social programs, welfare systems, and food stamp dependence in the US - for generations now. If such programs really worked to help people out of poverty, they'd all be well off by now.

 

[berrychrisc]

You can live comfortably enough by most mankind's standards in a very small apartment or a hut, with no electricity and no running water - never drinking a single soft drink or eating a single meal at a restaurant - 99 percent of mankind has done so since the Stone Age. What makes you so special?

It is no longer the Stone Age, and I do not believe that with our current technology it is necessary for people to live at a subsistence level.

So I'm not sure you really mean you just want to live comfortably. I think you mean that you want life's luxuries - and that's a whole other matter entirely.

I think that people deserve safe, sanitary housing, clean drinking water, sufficient food and clothing, access to medical care and education, access to employment that pays enough to provide for these items, and an equal voice in their government. Those might have been luxuries in another era, but I think today we can come much further than we have toward making these standards a reality for many more people.

Face it - the vast majority of humans have to work a significant ratio of their waking hours in exchange for food, clothing and shelter. Anything else is a luxury and in my opinion any day that you don't work at SOMETHING at least 8 hours is a day off and a true rarity - you're lucky to get one day of rest a week.

I agree with this point. Work is a healthy part of any person's life, and 8 hours a day is not an unreasonable amount of time to be asked to contribute productively to society in some manner.

 

[Magic Man]

Wow, what a novel idea.

Would you give this self-righteous crap a rest?

I think we all understood that you didn't just mean going to a job as work. However, a day off still shouldn't be rare, even if you're including work outside of your job. You should have the weekend off. That means you can spend some time doing housework or whatever, but the majority of the weekends should mostly be free time.

 

[Kathryn]

I think that people deserve safe, sanitary housing, clean drinking water, sufficient food and clothing, access to medical care and education, access to employment that pays enough to provide for these items, and an equal voice in their government. Those might have been luxuries in another era, but I think today we can come much further than we have toward making these standards a reality for many more people.

Not sure whether you're trying to include the whole world, or western civilization in your argument.

I believe that most Third World countries are ruled by despots and heinously corrupt governments and THOSE are the real culprits who keep their citizens in bondage. These countries are so dysfunctional that I'll leave them out of the equation for now.

Hmmm, so all people deserve safe, sanitary housing? At what point does it become THEIR responsibility to maintain the safety and cleanliness of their own home?

They all deserve clean drinking water - I agree with you on that one. That's why most Western cultures (maybe all) have pretty strict laws governing our water supplies.

Sufficient food and clothing - it would be nice if everyone had these items, but what can you do when a woman with four kids sells her food stamps for meth?

Most people in Western societies have access to healthcare and a free education.

In the US, the unemployment rate overall is about 9% (7% where I live). That means that about 91% of people who want to work are working. I would call that pretty good access to employment.

Minimum wage jobs are not meant to be sufficient to support a family - they are predominately held by young, unskilled workers and the majority of minimum wage jobs are part time positions, not full time. So most adult workers in the US are paid well above minimum wage and if they are working full time, they nearly always have a benefits package that includes at least a portion of their health insurance costs (often all of it), vacation and sick days, and overtime paid for work over 40 hours a week - unless they are salaried and in that case they are generally making FAR above minimum wage. Independent contractors are usually paid by the job and carry their own insurance - and they also have the flexibility to work when they want to and take off when they want to. They are generally paid far above minimum wage as well.

As for the equal voice in government - I agree that should be in place, but I also know that politicians in general are such a power hungry, corrupt bunch that the common man will always have a fight on his hands to be heard and respected by those who claim to represent his interests in the political arena.

I don't expect to move back to the Stone Age, but I made the statement about running water and electricity to make a point - we often call things necessities that are actually luxuries.

 

[Magic Man]

I didn't say return to the standards of 1,000 years ago. But I also don't believe it's anyone's "inherent right" to own a car, a cell phone for everyone in the family, and a flat screen TV with 400 channels.

Maybe you should stick the the arguments that are actually being made. To do that, it helps to pay attention. Dustin said he wants to live comfortably and doesn't think that's unreasonable. It's not. This nonsense about it not being an inherent right to own that stuff has no place here.

I know there are exceptions, but the vast majority of people in the US who are working full time and living in crappy apartments are either young, unskilled, or have made some pretty bad decisions in their lives - or a combination of the three factors.

And regardless of that, if you're working full time, you shouldn't have to live in a crappy little place with no luxuries whatsoever. It's stupid to say that you have to go through those hard times when you're young. Why? Why does making bad decisions or being unskilled matter? I don't think it's too much to ask for people working full time to be able to afford a decent apartment and a few luxuries. That doesn't mean they should all be able to have a big-screen TV and an iPhone. It just means they can afford good food, a nice place to sleep and nice clothes, along with the ability to buy a little something extra sometimes.

Thanks for making my point for me. I'm not a workaholic. I work about 45 hours a week at my full time job, and then invest probably about 5-10 hours a week working on my own projects, property and needs of my family (my favorite sort of "work").

And regardless of that, I'm responding to your comments that want people to see it as a luxury if they have a day off.

I believe and practice a five day work week, about 40-45 hours a week. Are you saying that's too much???

Maybe you should go back and read what you wrote. I did, which is why I was able to respond to it. You seem oblivious to it, so a second glance might do you some good.

 

[Kathryn]

I think we all understood that you didn't just mean going to a job as work. However, a day off still shouldn't be rare, even if you're including work outside of your job. You should have the weekend off. That means you can spend some time doing housework or whatever, but the majority of the weekends should mostly be free time.

Would you give this self-righteous crap a rest? I never said a day off should be rare, or that we should work six or seven days a week for an employer.

What I said was that it's not uncommon or cruel to work - either for someone else, or for ourselves, about a total of six days a week. That's not 10 or 12 hours six days a week - but a portion of most days of the week is probably going to be spent working to support ourselves and our families.

Weekends off are nice but many people don't get two days off in a row. It's not a given, or even necessarily what everyone wants. Some people genuinely enjoy working and earning money, and are willing and able to work more than forty hours a week, or split their days off in order to accomplish their personal goals. Several years ago, I had a great job working in a high end furniture store. I was off every Sunday and Tuesday. It was worth the sacrifice of a full weekend because I made great money and the work was enjoyable.

By the way, when I said "What a novel idea" about working six days and resting for one - I was talking about God's example in Genesis. Sorry if you didn't catch the subtle implication there. Next time I'll try to be more plain spoken.

 

[Watchmen]

Been there, done that. And that area has one of the highest rates of social programs, welfare systems, and food stamp dependence in the US - for generations now. If such programs really worked to help people out of poverty, they'd all be well off by now.

Exactly - the programs don't help and hard working people are stuck.