Have the Rich Gone to War Against the Poor and Middle Class in America?

[Smoke]

I dunno, you could always ask Jesus?:

Matthew 19:16-23 (New International Version)

The Rich Young Man

16Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, "Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?" 17"Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments."
18"Which ones?" the man inquired.
Jesus replied, " 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, 19honor your father and mother,'[a] and 'love your neighbor as yourself.'[b]"
20"All these I have kept," the young man said. "What do I still lack?"
21Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."
22When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.
23Then Jesus said to his disciples, "I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.

I like a cheap shot as much as the next guy, but surely you're not suggesting this as a basis for estate taxes -- even a religious basis.

 

[Kathryn]

I remember news stories that analyzed both tax plans and you wouldn't have been taxed any different under Mccain's plan whose only difference was he would have given more tax cuts to the wealthy and his "wealthy" was higher than $250,000 there was never any promise of only those in the 250,000 range or higher being taxed.

People only gripe because the republicans are good at blame talking points that stick in simple peoples minds "redistribution of wealth" "socialism" "bail outs"

I'm convinced if Obama spent his days on a ranch in Hawaii doing nothing he would be seen a lot more favorably. It's refreshing to have a president that is actually trying to keep his campaign promises despite insurmountable odds, instead of making everyone forget them.

Just for the record, I didn't say anything about Obama. I am not blaming him or his administration on ANY of our current tax problems/issues.

I'm an independent and usually vote libertarian.

 

[Kathryn]

And one more thing (I mentioned this on another thread, but it bears repeating here -and please forgive me if I'm repeating something I already said on this thread, but it always shocks me so much when I say it that it's like a new and horrible revelation each time):

I am a personal banker at a large bank. I make an average amount of money for the area in which I live - not rolling in the money, but it's a decent compensation package. And I love my job, so that counts for something.

My husband is in sales for an oilfield services company and makes good money - above the average around here. But combined - we're WELL below the $250,000 a year figure that Obama keeps throwing around as wealthy. I mean - way, way below that figure. For this area, I would classify us as upper middle class.

We file our taxes as married, filing jointly - the most economical way for most couples to file.

The amount of taxes that we pay each year equals MY ENTIRE YEARLY PAY.

Yes, folks - you read that right. I work ALL YEAR LONG - full time - and my entire salary, including bonuses, goes to pay our taxes.

My, my, my. If I thought about it every day, I think I would want to just shoot the top of my head off.

So when you get your refund check, drop me a little thank you note if you don't mind.

That, folks, is what we call a redistribution of wealth. Now, I'm not a hater, and I love my country and don't mind paying taxes to live here and raise my family in what I consider to be the most amazing country in the world. But damn! Bear with me a bit when I holler "OUCH!" when we're discussing taxes.

 

[Magic Man]

We file our taxes as married, filing jointly - the most economical way for most couples to file.

The amount of taxes that we pay each year equals MY ENTIRE YEARLY PAY.

Yes, folks - you read that right. I work ALL YEAR LONG - full time - and my entire salary, including bonuses, goes to pay our taxes.

That's certainly one way to look at it, and if your goal is to get all riled up about taxes, you're going about it the right way. However, if you look at it reasonable, you realize you're paying 25-30% in taxes, and your husband is paying 30ish% in taxes. The fact that it's your entire salary just means you husband makes a lot more than you.

So when you get your refund check, drop me a little thank you note if you don't mind.

Why? You could get a refund check, too, if you paid extra throughout the year.

That, folks, is what we call a redistribution of wealth.

Nope. That's what we call paying taxes so that we can have roads, schools, police, a military, running water, fire departments and many other things.

 

[McBell]

Nope. That's what we call paying taxes so that we can have roads, schools, police, a military, running water, fire departments and many other things.

Yeah, thats why they are letting school teachers go, the road have more potholes than road, there are not enough police officers to patrol the streets effectively...

One has to wonder where all this money is REALLY going....

 

[Magic Man]

Yeah, thats why they are letting school teachers go, the road have more potholes than road, there are not enough police officers to patrol the streets effectively...

One has to wonder where all this money is REALLY going....

Then, your problem is not with the idea of paying taxes and getting services. Your problem is with what seems to be inefficiency in the use of the money.

 

[McBell]

Then, your problem is not with the idea of paying taxes and getting services. Your problem is with what seems to be inefficiency in the use of the money.

"seems to be"?

 

[Magic Man]

"seems to be"?

Yup..

 

[dust1n]

It seems like Matthew 19:21 was and is the Bible's most ignored sentence.

21Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

 

[Falvlun]

I am not talking about NOT paying your taxes. What I am talking about what our options are in the face of EXCESSIVE taxation, which is inevitable considering the national deficit and debt, unless we make some very big changes. We certainly cannot afford to add MORE social programs AND maintain a war in two countries - only to pour additional tax dollars into re-building the very places we bomb.

What exactly constitutes excessive, though? I mean, if in some alternate universe you were paying say 20% of your income in taxes, you would probably claim that that amount was excessive. What do you think is a fair amount? And please note that a flat tax wouldn't work.

As to adding healthcare to the governmental bag of programs when we face huge deficits and debt, the thing many people can't wrap their mind around is that if the program were run correctly (ie, like it is run in all those other countries), we personally and the government would be saving money in the long term. Your stance is like claiming that, due to our current car loan, we can't afford to sell the gas guzzling monstrosity and buy a cheaper, more efficient vehicle.

If you believe your tax dollars are being spent foolishly, or unethically, it doesn't really matter. Even when we vote, we can't seem to get anyone into office who actually has the kahunas to CUT programs - their only answers seem to be to continually EXPAND government spending, which is funded SOLELY by our taxes.

I do agree with you in that our government is pathetic; but it is largely pathetic because the American people are pathetic: we whine and moan when necessary taxes are raised and whine and moan when we don't get all our programs.

Personally, I believe the government needs an overhaul, but not by the slasher method you suggest. We need to improve efficiency, get rid of pork (make it illegal!), and start firing people in buearacracies that don't keep a balanced budget.

You may sit on your futon to do your taxes, but if you're paying out rather than getting a refund, I can't imagine that you're having a pleasant time on that futon.

It was neither pleasant nor unpleasant. It was a task I needed to accomplish as an American citizen.

I'm the middle class. We are paying over 1/3 of our income in taxes this year. Personally, I think that's excessive.

In fact, I figured out the other day that my ENTIRE salary goes to pay our "married filing jointly" taxes. And I make a decent salary.

Yes, boys and girls, I work full time at the bank, all year long - just to pay our tax bill.

Honestly, if that was your story, wouldn't you be a bit concerned?

I really don't think 33% is excessive; but it all is relative on how much you make and how much you're left with.

Perspective is important too. If you insist on looking at it like all your salary is going towards taxes, then you also have to admit that that means your husband is not paying any at all.

 

[Kathryn]

What I mean by EXCESSIVE TAXATION is that I don't see our government using our money wisely.

I wouldn't mind paying high taxes for a high level of service. But I'm not seeing a really great return on my investment these days. I mainly see a bunch of fatcat (and the more I listen to them, I realize often STUPID) politicians and bureaucrats milking the system and paying more attention to their own political career than they do their constituents.

So excuse me if I'm not all excited about rising national debt and deficit, and the INEVITABILITY of higher taxes for the middle class - not for better services, but simply to pay our interest payments on a debt load that's spiraling out of control.

By the way - many people who get a tax REFUND did not pay all those taxes IN. By the time all their tax credits are stacked up, many of them get a tax refund that exceeds the amount of tax they paid in.

And that's a redistribution of wealth. Personally I think when you have to take zero deductions AND THEN EXTRA out of your check each pay period, and THEN pay MORE in at the end of the year, and then that money goes to someone else as a "refund" of an amount of taxes that they didn't even pay in, you're carrying probably more than your fair share.

But hey, maybe I'm wrong.

Actually, as it turns out - someone else's wealth may be about to be distributed to me in the form of a tax credit - I just sold my house and am buying a new one - and I get a $6500 tax credit!!!!! I hardly know how to act, it's been so long since I had one of those...I may actually break even or even get a little bit back this year...unfreakingbelievable.

Though I won't refuse it (call it getting just a little bit back of what I've put in for years), I think it's ironic that we're giving those credits when we're so deeply in debt. I am having a hard time connecting the dots on what that credit is actually supposed to accomplish.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

So when you get your refund check, drop me a little thank you note if you don't mind.

That, folks, is what we call a redistribution of wealth. Now, I'm not a hater, and I love my country and don't mind paying taxes to live here and raise my family in what I consider to be the most amazing country in the world. But damn! Bear with me a bit when I holler "OUCH!" when we're discussing taxes.

Sorry to hear that. But I get a refund check because I pay extra on my taxes per check. One of my employers took out too much for Medicaid last year, and my other just takes out too much in general, and Turbo Tax caught both of these, and I got an even bigger refund. I also do not claim myself as a dependent, which means even more taxes are taken out per paycheck, but I get more at the end of the year.

 

[Watchmen]

Sorry to hear that. But I get a refund check because I pay extra on my taxes per check. One of my employers took out too much for Medicaid last year, and my other just takes out too much in general, and Turbo Tax caught both of these, and I got an even bigger refund. I also do not claim myself as a dependent, which means even more taxes are taken out per paycheck, but I get more at the end of the year.

You decide how much is taken out - not your employer. That's why you complete form W-4.

 

[McBell]

Yup..

Thank you for answering that question......

 

[Sunstone]

It's curious to me how many people are convinced the rich and maybe also the middle class are being drained to support the lower class in America. Actually, the amount of money going to the lower class pales in comparison to the amount of money being taken from both the middle and lower class and given to the uber-rich. But for some reason, that fact doesn't jive with people's preconceptions about the redistribution of wealth in America, so they ignore it.

Maybe if FOX News pounded the truth into people's heads 24/7, about 60% or even 70% of Americans would finally realize most of the wealth in this country is being redistributed up the socio-economic ladder. But there will always be that 30% of Americans for whom fantasy is more pleasing than any truth.

 

[Magic Man]

Thank you for answering that question......

You're welcome...

 

[Kathryn]

Sorry to hear that. But I get a refund check because I pay extra on my taxes per check. One of my employers took out too much for Medicaid last year, and my other just takes out too much in general, and Turbo Tax caught both of these, and I got an even bigger refund. I also do not claim myself as a dependent, which means even more taxes are taken out per paycheck, but I get more at the end of the year.

Yeah, I'm glad that's working for you. However, my husband and I take no deductions, get extra taken out, and then we STILL have to pay more in at the end of the year.

Sucks.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

You decide how much is taken out - not your employer. That's why you complete form W-4.

I don't know. I have an extra five dollars taken out for each federal and state each week, for 250 extra dollars going towards state and federal per year. It's usually extra towards a federal return, but somehow I usually end up owing the state, so I don't get much back if I get anything. This is actually the first year that I have gotten a state return. Now how this works out with my employers taking out too much, I have no idea. I always assumed it was an automated system that took out a certain percentage of what you made. But I'm guessing it also has something to do with your employer, because I have the same percentage of taxes taken out as my dad, even though he makes almost three times what I do.

 

[Hevenly Heathen]

Is it a war if they are in control? It's more of a massacre. They cannot make their money without exploiting those lower than them, and they do just that. It can be argued that the lower classes don't have to give in, but when the uppers make them choose between food for their family or quality time with their family, most will choose food for their family.

 

[Watchmen]

I don't know. I have an extra five dollars taken out for each federal and state each week, for 250 extra dollars going towards state and federal per year. It's usually extra towards a federal return, but somehow I usually end up owing the state, so I don't get much back if I get anything. This is actually the first year that I have gotten a state return. Now how this works out with my employers taking out too much, I have no idea. I always assumed it was an automated system that took out a certain percentage of what you made. But I'm guessing it also has something to do with your employer, because I have the same percentage of taxes taken out as my dad, even though he makes almost three times what I do.

You determine how much is taken out based on your completion of the W-4 form you completed when you were hired. Remember the form that asked questions like, "enter 1 if you can claim yourself as head of household; enter 1 for each dependent living with you; enter 1 if no one else can claim you as a dependent," and so on. What you enter determines how much taxes are taken out. Your employer simply enters what you tell them on the form.