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Have the Rich Gone to War Against the Poor and Middle Class in America?

Mr Cheese

Well-Known Member
It's curious to me how many people are convinced the rich and maybe also the middle class are being drained to support the lower class in America. Actually, the amount of money going to the lower class pales in comparison to the amount of money being taken from both the middle and lower class and given to the uber-rich. But for some reason, that fact doesn't jive with people's preconceptions about the redistribution of wealth in America, so they ignore it.

Maybe if FOX News pounded the truth into people's heads 24/7, about 60% or even 70% of Americans would finally realize most of the wealth in this country is being redistributed up the socio-economic ladder. But there will always be that 30% of Americans for whom fantasy is more pleasing than any truth.

aint it the truth.....

I'm alright Jack... as we say in England...

The poor of course really don't matter... who cares about them?
They can remain poor, rot, drink and smoke until they die

:facepalm: but that is the right wing way....



God money, I'll do anything for you.
God money, just tell me what you want me to.
God money, nail me up against the wall.
The god of money don't want everything he wants it all...........
 

Falvlun

Earthbending Lemur
Premium Member
I'd rather have a national sales tax. At least in theory it should work as a fair tax, but I'm sure the poor will somehow still end up paying more.
I would imagine rich people could just buy their big ticket items from other countries.
 

Guitar's Cry

Disciple of Pan
Phil, a million dollars does not buy all that much any more. :no:

This statement frightens me. I've been living off of less than 20,000 a year for a while--note I am online, meaning I have an internet connection (albeit dial-up) and a computer, and I eat fairly well even with lots of student loan payments.

What does it take for a million dollars to not buy all that much? I can't imagine how many that could feed and shelter.
 
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KatNotKathy

Well-Known Member
I'd rather have a national sales tax. At least in theory it should work as a fair tax, but I'm sure the poor will somehow still end up paying more.

If you haven't figured out why this is a terrible idea yet, remember that the poor are often living from paycheck to paycheck, taxing all their earnings, while those well off enough to save will not have that additional money taxed. A national sales tax without massive subsidization will hit the poor much harder than the rich.
 

Reverend Rick

Frubal Whore
Premium Member
If you haven't figured out why this is a terrible idea yet, remember that the poor are often living from paycheck to paycheck, taxing all their earnings, while those well off enough to save will not have that additional money taxed. A national sales tax without massive subsidization will hit the poor much harder than the rich.

Think this through, people living pay check to pay check would have a larger paycheck than before. They would get to hold all their money they earn each week without deductions. They would also get a pre-bate check each month from the government to offset any unfairness.

Let's address your point on the rich having extra money untaxed. Yes, you raise a valid point that everyone would be encouraged to save money tax free, but what good is it to have money if you don't spend it someday?

Face it, rich people spend mega bucks, not hoard money and live like the poor to escape taxes. Speaking of escaping taxes, think about all the taxes we will collect from tax cheats in America.

Another thing is, no IRS or forms to file every year. Americans would just pay as we spend and always be in good standing tax wise.

I will tell you why most people don't like the fair tax. It is because a growing number of Americans, (almost 50%) don't pay any taxes at all.

Their mentality is:

1. I don't pay taxes
2. Therefore anything the government would give me would be free at someone else's expense.
3. What a deal, get someone else to pay for everything.

What we need in this country is to believe we are all in this together.

Just as we needed people to make a down payment on a home to have skin in the game, we need ALL AMERICANS to pay their FAIR SHARE of taxes.

Paying nothing each year and voting to raise taxes on the other guy is far from being fair. :sorry1:
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Hey Rick, guess what - I can't believe it....since we're buying a new house this month, we are actually going to get a TAX CREDIT!!! Yes, it's true, for the first time in probably twenty years, Uncle Sam is going to send ME a check.

Un freaking believable.

I almost feel guilty - till I remember all those checks I've sent in every April 15 for aeons.
 

Reverend Rick

Frubal Whore
Premium Member
Hey Rick, guess what - I can't believe it....since we're buying a new house this month, we are actually going to get a TAX CREDIT!!! Yes, it's true, for the first time in probably twenty years, Uncle Sam is going to send ME a check.

Un freaking believable.

I almost feel guilty - till I remember all those checks I've sent in every April 15 for aeons.


Sweet!
 

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
What we need in this country is to believe we are all in this together.

Just as we needed people to make a down payment on a home to have skin in the game, we need ALL AMERICANS to pay their FAIR SHARE of taxes.

Paying nothing each year and voting to raise taxes on the other guy is far from being fair. :sorry1:

I'm not sure what part of this you're not getting. The people who don't currently pay taxes can't afford to pay taxes. If they could, they'd be paying them already. I'm sure they'd love to earn enough to buy the things they need and still pay taxes, but they don't right now.

Everyone paying their fair share of taxes means the person making $25,000 paying 10% in taxes, unless, of course, they have kids, in which case, they could easily pay nothing. It also means the person making $350,000 paying 40+% in taxes. That's what is called paying your fair share.
 

Watchmen

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I'm not sure what part of this you're not getting. The people who don't currently pay taxes can't afford to pay taxes. If they could, they'd be paying them already. I'm sure they'd love to earn enough to buy the things they need and still pay taxes, but they don't right now.

Everyone paying their fair share of taxes means the person making $25,000 paying 10% in taxes, unless, of course, they have kids, in which case, they could easily pay nothing. It also means the person making $350,000 paying 40+% in taxes. That's what is called paying your fair share.

How do you define "fair?"
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
The guy making $300,000 gets taxed at a much higher rate than 25%, just to point that out. And under most of the flat tax plans, there are rebates for those below poverty level.

Where's your cutoff point between what is "fair" and what isn't? Is it "fair" to take 25% from a guy making $150,000 but who has two sets of elderly parents and inlaws to support, along with two kids in college, and a wife with MS - but not fair to take 25% from the single guy with no kids and healthy parents, who is making $35,000 a year and still living with mom and dad?

And why is it "fair" to take money from the working middle class and redistribute it, in the form of a tax "refund" (a refund of money that they never even paid!) to people who could work full time or in a job that paid more, but decide not to?
 

Watchmen

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
The same way everyone else does.

You're not trying to imply that taking 25% from a guy making $20,000 and taking 25% from a guy making $300,000 is fair, are you?

I already said a flat tax is not fair, but your numbers seemed arbitrary.
 

Reverend Rick

Frubal Whore
Premium Member
I'm not sure what part of this you're not getting. The people who don't currently pay taxes can't afford to pay taxes. If they could, they'd be paying them already.
I'm not sure what part of a prebate check you don't understand.
That's what is called paying your fair share.
When you get to keep all of the money you make with no deductions you have more money in hand. Then you get the PREBATE CHECK. That is the money that can pay the taxes. You would be money ahead! That is economics 101

I don't know how many times I have tried to explain to you that the guy living under a bridge would get a check each month. That is more than he is getting now.

I know you can say this, repeat after me: You get to keep all of your paycheck AND get a prebate check. NOW YOU CAN AFFORD THE NATIONAL SALES TAX.

All these folks who get paid under the table would start paying taxes. All these illegals who don't pay taxes would start paying taxes. Even baby sitters would pay taxes.

PERHAPS WE COULD START PAYING FOR THINGS LIKE HEALTH CARE AND WE COULD AFFORD TO SAVE ALL THIS MONEY YOU KEEP TALKING ABOUT.

Or, is it possible you are afraid if everyone got some skin in the game they might become more conservative? I can see it now, paper boys and girls screaming at the government to stop wasting their money. :shout
 

T-Dawg

Self-appointed Lunatic
Rick, does this "fair tax" system actually come with the prebate check thing, or is that just what we're assuming that the legislation has the good sense to throw in once it takes effect?

I could see this working, but it'd be terribly unstable, as it would depend on the rich continuing to buy stuff. Since the rich are relatively self-sufficient in terms of supporting themselves (as in, they can stockpile everything they need), they could effectively go "on strike" and refuse to buy anything as blackmail to get the government to make a bill go a certain way.
Hmm, vague feeling I'm not being clear... lemme try and illustrate it:
Let's say there's a bill floating through Congress, say, a raise in the minimum wage. Predictably, most of the wealthy business owners don't like this. So, they all get together and agree to not buy anything unless the bill is rejected, announcing their decision to Congress. This would be a huge hit on their tax revenue under a sales tax system. So, not wanting to lose revenue, Congress rejects the bill. (I realize that not buying anything for an extended amount of time would be rather difficult and the hypothetical tactic could not be maintained for long, but since when has Congress ever thought things like this out?)

More realistically, there's the possibility that people simply won't want to buy as much, especially during a recession. People tend to want to hoard their money during bad economic times.

Also, would a sales tax work on products being shipped in from other countries?

And what about stuff from the Black Market? I suspect that black market activity would increase dramatically if we used ONLY sales tax.
 

T-Dawg

Self-appointed Lunatic
Here's a source on FairTax:

FairTax - RationalWiki

Is this what we're talking about? Rationalwiki isn't exactly a neutral source, but it provides good counterarguments and criticism for right-wing agendas.
 

Reverend Rick

Frubal Whore
Premium Member
The fair tax amendment contains the prebate check system. It is as fair as it can get.

Yes, the rich can manipulate the tax system by going on strike, but they already use all these loopholes to do this now. The rich have been on strike for decades with their deductions.

The fair tax has no loopholes or deductions. By default, they would have to pay more taxes than they do now. THAT IS THE POINT! Collect more money. Put an end to deficit spending. If we could implement a balanced budget amendment AND a fair tax, people could decide for themselves what programs are good and what pork needs to go.

We would be in this together. Everyone would pay their fair share. You would have skin in the game, as you should.

Now, do you really believe that rich folks are going to live like the poor just to make a point?

I can see that now. I am mad as hell and tell my family we are not going to spend money. If they need hair care products tough! The women in my family would have me strung up in short order.
 
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