Have the Rich Gone to War Against the Poor and Middle Class in America?

[Magic Man]

The guy making $300,000 gets taxed at a much higher rate than 25%, just to point that out.

That's great. What does that have to do with anything?

Where's your cutoff point between what is "fair" and what isn't? Is it "fair" to take 25% from a guy making $150,000 but who has two sets of elderly parents and inlaws to support, along with two kids in college, and a wife with MS - but not fair to take 25% from the single guy with no kids and healthy parents, who is making $35,000 a year and still living with mom and dad?

I thought it was obvious that there are different circumstances that require different amounts.

And why is it "fair" to take money from the working middle class and redistribute it, in the form of a tax "refund" (a refund of money that they never even paid!) to people who could work full time or in a job that paid more, but decide not to?

Ah, the old "I don't want my money going to lazy people". Way to assume everyone who needs government help is lazy.

 

[Magic Man]

I already said a flat tax is not fair, but your numbers seemed arbitrary.

Of course, they're arbitrary. They're there to make a point.

 

[Magic Man]

I'm not sure what part of a prebate check you don't understand.

I"m not sure what part of "the national sales tax has nothing to do with what I was responding to from your post" you don't understand.

That's a very nice, long post you've got there, but if you want to respond to me, respond to what I said and respond to the comments you made that I was responding to, please. I don't feel like going on another tangent.

 

[Magic Man]

The fair tax amendment contains the prebate check system. It is as fair as it can get.

So, let me get this straight. With the Fair Tax, the poor would pay less than the rich in taxes, and right now the poor pay less than the rich in taxes. One complaint many conservatives, including Kathryn on this very thread, complain about is people who don't deserve it getting their tax money as rebates. Another thing conservatives tend to complain about is giving poor people handouts. So, in essence, you want to give poor people handouts and have them pay a lot less in taxes than rich people, and that's different from our current system how?

 

[Kathryn]

Ah, the old "I don't want my money going to lazy people". Way to assume everyone who needs government help is lazy.

What on earth are you talking about? Tax refunds are not "government help" - and that's the topic.

Why is it fair that one person works full time and pays more taxes, and another person who COULD work full time but chooses not to (or in the case of married, filing jointly - one partner may not work at all) gets a tax REFUND at the end of the year. How is it a REFUND if they didn't pay in the amount they're getting "refunded" to begin with?

"Tax refund" = "wealth redistribution."

 

[Magic Man]

What on earth are you talking about? Tax refunds are not "government help" - and that's the topic.

Why is it fair that one person works full time and pays more taxes, and another person who COULD work full time but chooses not to (or in the case of married, filing jointly - one partner may not work at all) gets a tax REFUND at the end of the year. How is it a REFUND if they didn't pay in the amount they're getting "refunded" to begin with?

"Tax refund" = "wealth redistribution."

 

[Kathryn]

Wow, love the factual detail in your response.

 

[Reverend Rick]

Wow, love the factual detail in your response.

Can you say "cherry pick"?

 

[Magic Man]

Wow, love the factual detail in your response.

I'm sorry. I'll respond with factual detail when I have some factual detail to respond to.

Can you say "cherry pick"?

Ooo, ooo, I can. "Cherry pick". Can you say "I don't know how to respond to your actual points, so I'll just make vague accusations like 'cherry pick'"?

 

[T-Dawg]

Can you say "cherry pick"?

There's a lot of accusations you could have made on the grounds that he replied only with a facepalm, but cherrypick? How is that cherrypicking? Cherrypicking would be what you're doing and only responding to the questions you know how to answer .

By the way, how would you combat the black market that is bound to spring up? Being taxed 30 cents on the dollar for everything you buy legally makes it awful tempting to buy illegally for a lot of people.

 

[Kathryn]

mball - OK, let me spell it out for you very simply and clearly:

We were not discussing federal aid programs. We were discussing tax refunds. Though there are some similarities, the two concepts are not the same thing.

You responded to my post about tax REFUNDS with the accusation that I was saying that government programs reward lazy people.

I wasn't saying that at all, and don't see how you could misconstrue my words - unless of course, you were being deliberately misleading, or trying to divert the meaning of my post, or...maybe you're just daft. Who knows?

I am a firm believer and supporter of government programs that help the truly needy, children of those unable or unwilling to provide for them, those unable to work, the disabled, the elderly, etc.

I have absolutely no problem paying taxes into such programs, though I am always going to be a bit skeptical about whether or not there is waste and/or corruption within any huge entity with millions of dollars flowing through it's system.

 

[Reverend Rick]

So, let me get this straight. With the Fair Tax, the poor would pay less than the rich in taxes, and right now the poor pay less than the rich in taxes. One complaint many conservatives, including Kathryn on this very thread, complain about is people who don't deserve it getting their tax money as rebates. Another thing conservatives tend to complain about is giving poor people handouts. So, in essence, you want to give poor people handouts and have them pay a lot less in taxes than rich people, and that's different from our current system how?

It collects taxes from the underground economy that is currently not paying taxes.

That would bring in more money without raising taxes.

That is a win win in my book unless the agenda is to attack only the well off in America.

 

[Reverend Rick]

Do you not see the hypocrisy here Matt?

You accuse me of ignoring the facts about health care while you do the same thing with the fair tax.

You have a right to your opinion, you do not however have a right to your own facts which you repeat over and over.

Your never going to change your mind about the fair tax and I am never going to change my mind about socialised health care.

In light of all the facts being ignored on both sides, I fail to see the point of debating with you any longer.

Both of us are guilty of not addressing anything the other has posted when we make a valid point.

What it boils down to is, neither side holds a majority opinion, so the moderates are going to decide what happens in the future. :sorry1:

 

[Magic Man]

It collects taxes from the underground economy that is currently not paying taxes.

How do you figure? You don't think there'll be ways around this for those same people?

 

[Magic Man]

Do you not see the hypocrisy here Matt?

Yes, I just wish you did. That's one thing I'm trying to make clear to you.

You accuse me of ignoring the facts about health care while you do the same thing with the fair tax.

The comment you're responding to had nothing whatsoever to do with the fair tax.

You have a right to your opinion, you do not however have a right to your own facts which you repeat over and over.

That's why I use real facts. You should try it sometime.

Your never going to change your mind about the fair tax and I am never going to change my mind about socialised health care.

And what, pray tell, is my opinion on the fair tax?

In light of all the facts being ignored on both sides, I fail to see the point of debating with you any longer.

You're right. There isn't much point in debating with you, but I still hold out hope that someday you'll see the value of honest-to-God facts.

Both of us are guilty of not addressing anything the other has posted when we make a valid point.

No, you're constantly guilty of not addressing the point being made by me, but I respond to what you actually say, and i don't go off on rants about irrelevant stuff.

 

[justbehappy]

I completely disagree. Politics nowadays are set up to help the poor in every way possible - especially the ones that sit around on their butts all day smoking you-know-what and popping out kids. I live in an extremely diverse town and I see this every day. And I see my middle-class family struggling because of that. Do you not how income taxes work? The ignorance of the world is that people with a lot of money were simply "lucky." "They didn't work for their money. They were just in the right place at the right time." It is complete BS. My father was the only one of 8 kids to not live a trailer home. He worked his butt off in school, received scholarships, and now has a good paying job. But he loses almost half of what he makes to taxes.
I care about other people, but I am a Libertarian and I do not feel that the government's job is to control/help the economy. Especially when the welfare system is as corrupt as it is. I am not saying that there is no one out there that needs welfare, but that is not the function of the GOVERNMENT. The government is supposed to protect our rights, and that is all.

 

[Magic Man]

I completely disagree. Politics nowadays are set up to help the poor in every way possible - especially the ones that sit around on their butts all day smoking you-know-what and popping out kids. I live in an extremely diverse town and I see this every day. And I see my middle-class family struggling because of that. Do you not how income taxes work? The ignorance of the world is that people with a lot of money were simply "lucky." "They didn't work for their money. They were just in the right place at the right time." It is complete BS. My father was the only one of 8 kids to not live a trailer home. He worked his butt off in school, received scholarships, and now has a good paying job. But he loses almost half of what he makes to taxes.
I care about other people, but I am a Libertarian and I do not feel that the government's job is to control/help the economy. Especially when the welfare system is as corrupt as it is. I am not saying that there is no one out there that needs welfare, but that is not the function of the GOVERNMENT. The government is supposed to protect our rights, and that is all.

Ah, good, just what we needed: another Rick.

 

[KatNotKathy]

I completely disagree. Politics nowadays are set up to help the poor in every way possible - especially the ones that sit around on their butts all day smoking you-know-what and popping out kids. I live in an extremely diverse town and I see this every day. And I see my middle-class family struggling because of that. Do you not how income taxes work? The ignorance of the world is that people with a lot of money were simply "lucky." "They didn't work for their money. They were just in the right place at the right time." It is complete BS. My father was the only one of 8 kids to not live a trailer home. He worked his butt off in school, received scholarships, and now has a good paying job. But he loses almost half of what he makes to taxes.
I care about other people, but I am a Libertarian and I do not feel that the government's job is to control/help the economy. Especially when the welfare system is as corrupt as it is. I am not saying that there is no one out there that needs welfare, but that is not the function of the GOVERNMENT. The government is supposed to protect our rights, and that is all.

Hahahahahaha holy **** kill yourself.

Edit: Unless you are a troll. I fruballed you just in case because that wasn't bad.

 

[dust1n]

I completely disagree. Politics nowadays are set up to help the poor in every way possible - especially the ones that sit around on their butts all day smoking you-know-what and popping out kids.

:biglaugh: That's why the poor outnumber the rich so ridiculously!

I care about other people, but I am a Libertarian and I do not feel that the government's job is to control/help the economy. Especially when the welfare system is as corrupt as it is. I am not saying that there is no one out there that needs welfare, but that is not the function of the GOVERNMENT. The government is supposed to protect our rights, and that is all.

I suppose you rather have private interest control/help the economy. Your neo-liberalism has down nothing other than help the higher tax brackets at expense of the poor. How far do you want 'privatization' to take place? I suppose we should of just payed Blackwater USA to fight the war for us; oh wait...

 

[dust1n]

Hahahahahaha holy **** kill yourself.

Edit: Unless you are a troll. I fruballed you just in case because that wasn't bad.

Libertarianism is a political philosophy for Peter Pans, an outlook on the world premised on never growing up. -Alan Wolfe