KatNotKathy
Well-Known Member
I don't know about ya'll, but I'm popping out babies and smoking you know what as I type.
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Have the Rich Gone to War Against the Poor and Middle Class in America?
- Thread starter Sunstone
- Start date
dust1n
Zindīq
Strangely enough, I can't pop out babies; but the latter is something I'm doing in front o my lover, who is popping out multiple babies as we speak. They want to hit this, but I tell them they have to wait until they are three.
Magic Man
Reaper of Conversation
What are you, some kind of communist? Wait until they're three? They're Americans! They should be free to do whatever they want! Who cares if they're newborns?
dust1n
Zindīq
LOL. Libertarian is scary.
I think I'd rather be a citizen of the United States than a consumer of the United States.
Back to the fair tax, did it every occur to anyone that all the loop holes that empower rich folks to avoid taxes would be gone? I'm serious here, the government spends way more money than they take in and the fair tax would bring in more money.
We cannot keep on spending money we don't have. The day will come when no one will lend us any more money. The United States is very close to losing it's triple A rating. We will have to pay as we go some day.
People who are self sufficient and take their responsibilities seriously will always be able to provide for themselves. Folks with an entitlement mentality may ride the gravy train till the tracks come to an end.
The United States could become like a third world country. We are already seeing European countries, (who some would have us become more like) headed for financial ruin. The euro is looking pretty shaky right now. Greece looks like the first country to fall.
We cannot keep on spending money we don't have. The day will come when no one will lend us any more money. The United States is very close to losing it's triple A rating. We will have to pay as we go some day.
People who are self sufficient and take their responsibilities seriously will always be able to provide for themselves. Folks with an entitlement mentality may ride the gravy train till the tracks come to an end.
The United States could become like a third world country. We are already seeing European countries, (who some would have us become more like) headed for financial ruin. The euro is looking pretty shaky right now. Greece looks like the first country to fall.
no-body
Well-Known Member
"A tax refund or tax rebate is a refund on taxes when the tax liability is less than the taxes paid." it is not "wealth redistribution" if you make more it's only fair that you pay more. You don't take into account those that are wealthier can and do get more benefits and added perks in their lives not to mention tax write offs.
A person working a minimum wage job will have to do more degrading hard labor with no benefits and more stress in their life. To use your earlier example if a family members got sick and they had to take care of them they would have to go into debt till doomsday and risk losing their job even with the pettily little tax refund.
You could say "well why don't they go to night school and better themselves" well that takes time and going into more debt. It must be nice starting off in a wealthy family or having a poor family that is willing to go into debt so you can make out better, but not everyone has that luxury.
Many people are sucessful who have had little or no help. Many people could better themselves and don't. The biggest problem I see is that they as children did not develop a work ethic. It is my opinion that they grew up with poor role models.
no-body
Well-Known Member
Sure, there are people of all strata of life who could probably do better but settle for what they've got. The point is a couple of bad eggs bleeding the system doesn't mean we should dismantle it, it probably needs retuning but wanting to turn America into some heartless libertopia doesn't seem like the best course of action.
no-body, have you ever been to the Bahamas? There is no wellfare there and ironically just about everyone on the island has some sort of a job. A person's job could be as simple as selling beer next to the 5th hole on the golf course or braiding hair on the beach.
no-body
Well-Known Member
What kind of quality of life do these people and their children lead?
Being in dire straits myself before I know how easy it is to get aid and how scamable the system is. Definitely it needs retuning in a way to lead people to jobs rather than encourage them to be on aid forever and more help for people who are on the fringes of the middle who don't qualify. But I can't see any benefits to dismantling the system and having laissez-fair capitalism.
Kathryn
It was on fire when I laid down on it.
What kind of quality life do people living in projects and on welfare give their children? I can tell you - absolute CRAP.
I've been poor and I've been rich. Rich is better. And I earned every penny of it. Others can do the same. If they are truly incapable, via some sort of disability, then I will GLADLY pour my tax dollars into programs to their benefit.
Otherwise, get off your ***, take responsibility for your life and your actions, and get to work.
I've been poor and I've been rich. Rich is better. And I earned every penny of it. Others can do the same. If they are truly incapable, via some sort of disability, then I will GLADLY pour my tax dollars into programs to their benefit.
Otherwise, get off your ***, take responsibility for your life and your actions, and get to work.
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justbehappy
Active Member
Frubals!
That the poor don't work is a myth.
Kathryn
It was on fire when I laid down on it.
I've been poor - I've lived around the poor. I've lived in the projects and subsidized housing and all that crap.
I'm not saying that all the poor don't work. What I AM saying is that a disproportionate number of the perpetually poor have dysfunctional families and work ethics.
I'm not saying that all the poor don't work. What I AM saying is that a disproportionate number of the perpetually poor have dysfunctional families and work ethics.
McBell
Admiral Obvious
Funny how people forget that the poor are kinda stuck in their position by a welfare system that punishes them for trying to get out.
That the poor do not have a "work ethic" is a myth.
What is sad is that many would rather live in the projects and do nothing rather than work. Being satisfied with something for nothing over working is the greatest disservice our country has ever gave folks.
5th generation wellfare recipients don't know any other way of life. :sorry1:
It's a cultural assumption in America to believe that if someone is poor, that's because they lack a proper work ethic. Good luck getting anyone to break out of their culture and see things differently. For most people, culture is more or less destiny.
Kathryn
It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Amen, Rick.
I've lived in the projects and in subsidized housing. I've worked as a volunteer with people who are living at rehab halfway houses, women in women's shelters, etc. In fact, I teach classes on personal finances to women who have left abusive situations and are trying to rebuild their lives. Many, but not all, of these women are from poverty-stricken situations.
Of COURSE there are poor people who have a strong work ethic. But there is a very large percentage of people living in projects who have been raised by parents on welfare - like Rick said, sometimes five generations back - who simply have no idea how to break that cycle of poverty. They are fairly comfortable because the environment is familiar. They know and work the system. Working the system is their JOB rather than finding a real vocation, sticking with it, building a career and bettering themselves and the lives of their children.
When I teach these lifeskills classes, I have to teach a whole new attitude. Some people are receptive. A lot of them aren't. It's the ones who listen and apply new principles that I do this for. One success in ten makes it worthwhile to me. Heck, one success in forty would make it worthwhile - because their children's lives are made better when their mother's life improves.
My husband works in the oilfield. He came from a very poor background - his dad was killed in an oilfield accident when my husband was a little boy. His mother was a widow with two small children and no education. Her family was dirt poor, from the backwoods of Louisiana. She received about $15,000 in life insurance on her young husband's life - that was it. She was so naive and young that she didn't even realize that she could have probably sued her dead husband's company and become rich.
Anyway - single mom, no education, poor family, two kids. It could have been a disaster for everyone. But she worked during the day and went to school at night, while grandma watched the boys. They lived in the tiniest little frame home I've ever seen in a poor part of town.
Even though she was a beautiful young woman, she didn't date and she didn't sleep around. Her top priority was to better her life herself, in an honorable manner.
She got a degree and became a teacher when the boys were in middle school. Life dramatically improved. Her beauty, character, and sterling reputation attracted a good man and when the boys were older they married and he has been a father to them. He married their mother - she didn't let him move in before they got married either. They're still married today.
Her new husband was the son of dirt farmers and had grown up very poor. He had no degree, no education beyond high school. But he had stuck with the same job and same company and slowly climbed the ladder (starting with the very bottom rung). Together they made a good living and are now comfortably retired.
These two people made good choices all their lives and it paid off.
My husband started working in the oilfield when he was 18. For years, he worked 80 or more hours a week - in the mud, grime, wind, rain - sleeping in the cab of his truck on location and not coming home for days. Now he makes good money and has a rock solid career.
When he tells guys in interviews that their starting pay for an entry level job will be around $50,000 a year - their eyes light up. Then he tells them that in a few years they will probably be making 80,000 or so - and they're chomping at the bit for this great pay and great benefits package.
Then he tells them how hard they will have to work for that money, and suddenly they're not so interested. Even though you can move quickly up the ranks in the oilfield, and don't have to work overtime for your entire career, you gotta do it on the front end.
Sometimes they are interested enough in the money to go get the required physical. But many of them fail the drug test. Poor choices.
Heck, there are great careers to be had even in fast food if you stick to it - you can become a district manager pretty quickly (which is good money) without a college degree. But it's hard work. And you have to pass random drug tests.
I've lived in the projects and in subsidized housing. I've worked as a volunteer with people who are living at rehab halfway houses, women in women's shelters, etc. In fact, I teach classes on personal finances to women who have left abusive situations and are trying to rebuild their lives. Many, but not all, of these women are from poverty-stricken situations.
Of COURSE there are poor people who have a strong work ethic. But there is a very large percentage of people living in projects who have been raised by parents on welfare - like Rick said, sometimes five generations back - who simply have no idea how to break that cycle of poverty. They are fairly comfortable because the environment is familiar. They know and work the system. Working the system is their JOB rather than finding a real vocation, sticking with it, building a career and bettering themselves and the lives of their children.
When I teach these lifeskills classes, I have to teach a whole new attitude. Some people are receptive. A lot of them aren't. It's the ones who listen and apply new principles that I do this for. One success in ten makes it worthwhile to me. Heck, one success in forty would make it worthwhile - because their children's lives are made better when their mother's life improves.
My husband works in the oilfield. He came from a very poor background - his dad was killed in an oilfield accident when my husband was a little boy. His mother was a widow with two small children and no education. Her family was dirt poor, from the backwoods of Louisiana. She received about $15,000 in life insurance on her young husband's life - that was it. She was so naive and young that she didn't even realize that she could have probably sued her dead husband's company and become rich.
Anyway - single mom, no education, poor family, two kids. It could have been a disaster for everyone. But she worked during the day and went to school at night, while grandma watched the boys. They lived in the tiniest little frame home I've ever seen in a poor part of town.
Even though she was a beautiful young woman, she didn't date and she didn't sleep around. Her top priority was to better her life herself, in an honorable manner.
She got a degree and became a teacher when the boys were in middle school. Life dramatically improved. Her beauty, character, and sterling reputation attracted a good man and when the boys were older they married and he has been a father to them. He married their mother - she didn't let him move in before they got married either. They're still married today.
Her new husband was the son of dirt farmers and had grown up very poor. He had no degree, no education beyond high school. But he had stuck with the same job and same company and slowly climbed the ladder (starting with the very bottom rung). Together they made a good living and are now comfortably retired.
These two people made good choices all their lives and it paid off.
My husband started working in the oilfield when he was 18. For years, he worked 80 or more hours a week - in the mud, grime, wind, rain - sleeping in the cab of his truck on location and not coming home for days. Now he makes good money and has a rock solid career.
When he tells guys in interviews that their starting pay for an entry level job will be around $50,000 a year - their eyes light up. Then he tells them that in a few years they will probably be making 80,000 or so - and they're chomping at the bit for this great pay and great benefits package.
Then he tells them how hard they will have to work for that money, and suddenly they're not so interested. Even though you can move quickly up the ranks in the oilfield, and don't have to work overtime for your entire career, you gotta do it on the front end.
Sometimes they are interested enough in the money to go get the required physical. But many of them fail the drug test. Poor choices.
Heck, there are great careers to be had even in fast food if you stick to it - you can become a district manager pretty quickly (which is good money) without a college degree. But it's hard work. And you have to pass random drug tests.